Political Crossfire Forums

[Lucky Luke]

mattman42 wrote: So exactly what about your info proves that gun control led to a decline in homicide? You can't reasonably attribute that fall of murder rates from an all-time high solely to gun control which you yourself have conceded has very little, if any, effect on crime rates.

You tell me Mattman42 what happened to the number of homicides with handguns when compared with the number of homicides with other weapons during all those years and what happened in 1994, how do you explain this? Can you? I can.

Not only gun control has piratically no effect on crime rates but gun control has of course no effect on homicide rates with other weapons than firearms or more precisely only handgun control has a great effect on the homicide rate with handguns, this is what this chart is showing.

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[Lucky Luke]

thintheherd wrote: mattman42 wrote: So exactly what about your info proves that gun control led to a decline in homicide? You can't reasonably attribute that fall of murder rates from an all-time high solely to gun control which you yourself have conceded has very little, if any, effect on crime rates.
Yeah... he usually skips that little tid-bit of info.

<waits for Lucy to tell M42 he's wrong for 'just looking at the last part of the chart'. :lol: >

Wrong again Thintheherd, try again.

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[Lucky Luke]

Hank Rearden wrote:

You do realize that firearms that fell under the umbrella of the "assault weapons ban" were legal and available well before the late 80's, and that the AWB was in effect until '04? The conclusion above, that by '99 the firearm related homicide rate returned to a level of the mid 80's and leveled off, would tend to show that the AWB didn't effect crime. If it did, the rate would be much lower than prior to these firearms being avaliable. Also, the nations murder rate started trending downward some 2 years before the AWB went into effect.

The passing of the AWB pushed alot of people that kind of wanted guns that fit under this classification to go get them while they could, I picked up a couple ARs and FALs just prior to it going into effect. Sales of these firearms increased dramatically just prior to the AWB, according to several sources. If these weapons had any impact on crime you should have seen a big spike in the homicide rate at this time, not the continuous decline that your sources show.

LL I really enjoy it when you provide data that proves our point.

HR

I'll tell you what the "assault weapons ban" has got to do with homicide, zero. Who told you that assault weapons were used in homicide, the NRA?

Now read my data and understand that it is about handguns and not any assault weapon, try again.

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[Lucky Luke]

the prophet wrote: Well said Hank, I like you already :) I also have few toys purchased just before the ban.For Lucky Luke, I see you are from Scotland. Here in (our) world where (we) live Criminals buy guns from criminal sources. These are all used to kill people illegally :shock: :shock: . Gun control only affects law abiding citizens like myself who use them to protect ourselves from these criminals who would rape, pillage and kill us all if we were not armed.(savvy??) Your tables and stats mean nothing because they are all related to hand guns obtained illegally by criminals(savvy??) Gun control only took away the right to defend themselves from some of those who were shot and killed (savvy??) So more handgun controls would only lead to more illegal handguns killing more innocent people(savvy??) We already have laws against murder by any means ,we just need to enforce these laws (savvy??) If we ban handguns in the U.S.A only criminals and the police would have them. This is not acceptable do I make myself clear??????? the Prophet

We have a ban on handguns here and most criminals and most police officers don't have any, can you understand that it is possible?

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[the prophet]

The truth, a handgun is a tool. We keep one in our bedroom and it rarely ever is moved only to test fire it on occasion. It is no threat to any of the hundreds of neighbors in my area. It is mine and it will stay mine. Across the highway is an area we call the heights. There are crack users there who break in to homes and steal possessions and have on occasion hurt and even killed innocent people. The police here cannot get to a crime scene fast enough to stop these crimes so we have to be able to stop them ourselves. I am living in a free country where we don't want our government telling us what we can have and cant have. We are different from you. To us freedom means the right to resist oppression. You live in an oppressed country and France is a Communist one to boot. I would not choose to live in a socialist or Communist country. I can hunt for deer and target shoot my hand gun and rifles without fear of government intervention. There are socialists who seek to undermine our freedom and these dogs are being exposed . they try to use our own system against us by lying to the public about firearms and crime. there are millions of Illegal handguns already here in our country . they are balanced by millions of legal ones. The only ones we want gone are the Illegal ones Savvy? criminals are the only ones we want gun control to affect. We believe that a person should not be punished unless they do something wrong first. Now if we would just get back to dealing with violent criminals the way we used to(hanging) we would not have little gang punks running around with guns. Did you know we used to hang horse thieves? now if some creep steals a car he gets an education! no justice there. If criminals were just taken out and hung it would not take long and we wouldn't have much crime here either. We also have our laws a little mixed up. For instance a guy has 2 beers and drives his car.Police stop him for a light out. He gets the Breathalyzer and its off to jail. He loses his job gets his life ruined. the other side is an armed robber who is violent. He gets parole and back out on the street to rob someone else. We are tough on soft crime and soft on violent crime. Fire arms are not even close to the reasons why we have so much criminal activity here in the U.S. I'm tired of building more prisons we need to make room in the ones we have . Lets put all the worst ones in the same room. the rest 5 to a cell living on stale bread and rusty water. Why should these bastards have televisions?? I'm sick of criminals having more rights than the rest of us. you stay in your country and Ill stay in mine. You live your way without hand guns and Ill keep mine in fact I think Ill go and shoot up 40 rounds tomorrow just because I can. the Prophet

[Lucky Luke]

the prophet wrote: The truth, a handgun is a tool. We keep one in our bedroom and it rarely ever is moved only to test fire it on occasion. It is no threat to any of the hundreds of neighbors in my area. It is mine and it will stay mine. Across the highway is an area we call the heights. There are crack users there who break in to homes and steal possessions and have on occasion hurt and even killed innocent people. The police here cannot get to a crime scene fast enough to stop these crimes so we have to be able to stop them ourselves. I am living in a free country where we don't want our government telling us what we can have and cant have. We are different from you. To us freedom means the right to resist oppression. You live in an oppressed country and France is a Communist one to boot. I would not choose to live in a socialist or Communist country. I can hunt for deer and target shoot my hand gun and rifles without fear of government intervention. There are socialists who seek to undermine our freedom and these dogs are being exposed . they try to use our own system against us by lying to the public about firearms and crime. there are millions of Illegal handguns already here in our country . they are balanced by millions of legal ones. The only ones we want gone are the Illegal ones Savvy? criminals are the only ones we want gun control to affect. We believe that a person should not be punished unless they do something wrong first. Now if we would just get back to dealing with violent criminals the way we used to(hanging) we would not have little gang punks running around with guns. Did you know we used to hang horse thieves? now if some creep steals a car he gets an education! no justice there. If criminals were just taken out and hung it would not take long and we wouldn't have much crime here either. We also have our laws a little mixed up. For instance a guy has 2 beers and drives his car.Police stop him for a light out. He gets the Breathalyzer and its off to jail. He loses his job gets his life ruined. the other side is an armed robber who is violent. He gets parole and back out on the street to rob someone else. We are tough on soft crime and soft on violent crime. Fire arms are not even close to the reasons why we have so much criminal activity here in the U.S. I'm tired of building more prisons we need to make room in the ones we have . Lets put all the worst ones in the same room. the rest 5 to a cell living on stale bread and rusty water. Why should these bastards have televisions?? I'm sick of criminals having more rights than the rest of us. you stay in your country and Ill stay in mine. You live your way without hand guns and Ill keep mine in fact I think Ill go and shoot up 40 rounds tomorrow just because I can. the Prophet

Where do I start? There is so much to respond to and so many contradictions in one single post that I could write pages upon pages to rectify just half of what you wrote The Prophet.

Anyway here are a few points that made me laugh the most. I live in Scotland The Prophet not France. Last time I checked France was run by a Conservative government, Britain by the Socialist Bliar. Incidentally the last handgun legislation was introduced by Conservatives here in Scotland.

I believe the last US election brought you a Democratic majority in both houses, as far as I can tell the American Democrats are very close to the British Labour party making your claim that somehow our politicians are more Socialist than yours strange to say the least.

Now your main argument is that European politicians policies would cause the quiet and close to crime free American society to become hell on earth with a high violent crime rate, isn't it?

If it is your argument how come the rest of your post is describing to us hell on earth? Please come forward with some good explanations for those contradictions The Prophet.

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[evil muppet]

Lucky Luke. You are so pathetically stupid. You are too stupid to even realize how stupid you are. What a moron.

These graphs were also on that link you provided.


Notice a couple things with these graphs. Notice how the homicide rate started to go up in 1985 and it peaked around 1993. This was in the age of 25 and under. The Crack Epidemic started in 1985 and peaked in 1990. Now I've been maintaining that it was drugs contributing to our murder rate and what happens? When the murder rate goes up during a CRACK EPIDEMIC.

Quote: Fallout from the crack epidemic included a huge surge in addiction, homelessness, murder, theft, robbery, and long-term imprisonment. The first effects of the epidemic started in the early 1980s, but the DEA officially classifies the time of the epidemic starting in 1985 and ending in 1990, in what can be considered to be the height of the epidemic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crack_Epidemic

The second thing that you should notice is that the gun murders and the non gun murders follows the same trends. When gun murders goes up, so do non gun murders. When it goes down, so does non-gun murders. It is best seen in the 25+ age group, less so but still noticable in the 18-24 age group and the under 18 can easily be attributed to the Crack epidemic.

I just owned your retarded gun grabbing ass. Come on dumb s**t. Give me more of your sources. I want to see it all. I want to see how stupid you really are.

[Lucky Luke]

evil muppet wrote: Lucky Luke. You are so pathetically stupid. You are too stupid to even realize how stupid you are. What a moron.

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There is no need for insults Evil Muppet, rewrite your post if you wish an answer from me.

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[Geronimo]

the second amendment is a great one. It is our RIGHT to posses guns. This should go unchecked regardless of who wins elections. I agree with wyldejackyl on this one. Enough with the two bully powers of republican and democrats. The repetition of powers in this country are really 1 choice; which mistakes would we all agree to make this election time around?
tired of it.

[wyldejackyl]

Hopefully more people get tired of it and take action. Sitting silent does nothing. Calling/writing/emailing your elected representative does nothing.

What do they call it Luke, when your democratic/republican government takes steps on behalf of itself and what's not in the interests of the actual voter? And if you don't like the actions the government is taking..how do you stop them? Do you just ask nicely? Perhaps invite them into your home, let you search your property, maybe throw you in jail for calling them names when they come inside? Perhaps when they take you to jail, you in effect sit there for 10 years without a trial or even without seeing an attorney. Does that sound like fun and/or freedom to you? Well, the Bill of Rights protects against things like that, and people like you seek to abominate it by your untruthful posts about how guns cause crime. Guns don't cause crime. Actually, I might go so far out on a limb to say that drugs don't cause crime either. PEOPLE CAUSE CRIME. their use, their dependency, their reasons for choosing guns and drugs..cause crime. Should we ban people? If you take away one thing, it'll be replaced with another, as the social ill itself wont' go away. Can you not understand that?

[evil muppet]

Lucky Luke wrote: evil muppet wrote: Lucky Luke. You are so pathetically stupid. You are too stupid to even realize how stupid you are. What a moron.

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There is no need for insults Evil Muppet, rewrite your post if you wish an answer from me.

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f**k you. How about you answer me because I showed how WRONG your argument has been. You cannot refute anything that I've said. I've got your argument by the balls.

[perdidochas]

Lucky Luke wrote: mattman42 wrote: So exactly what about your info proves that gun control led to a decline in homicide? You can't reasonably attribute that fall of murder rates from an all-time high solely to gun control which you yourself have conceded has very little, if any, effect on crime rates.

You tell me Mattman42 what happened to the number of homicides with handguns when compared with the number of homicides with other weapons during all those years and what happened in 1994, how do you explain this? Can you? I can.

Not only gun control has piratically no effect on crime rates but gun control has of course no effect on homicide rates with other weapons than firearms or more precisely only handgun control has a great effect on the homicide rate with handguns, this is what this chart is showing.

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The problem with your simplistic analysis of this is the great number of guns already in people's hands. Simply stopping the sale of new guns to those without impeccable credentials does little or nothing to affect the guns that are in the system. In a country with 200 million guns, the effects of a total ban on selling guns for a year would be minimal, at least for several years. Your infamous graph shows that decline beginning before there could be a reduction in guns. Therefore, it must be due to some other reasons, such as increased law enforcement and incarceration.

[Lucky Luke]

evil muppet wrote: Lucky Luke wrote: evil muppet wrote: Lucky Luke. You are so pathetically stupid. You are too stupid to even realize how stupid you are. What a moron.

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There is no need for insults Evil Muppet, rewrite your post if you wish an answer from me.

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f**k you. How about you answer me because I showed how WRONG your argument has been. You cannot refute anything that I've said. I've got your argument by the balls.

There is no need for insults Evil Muppet, rewrite your post if you wish an answer from me.

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[Lucky Luke]

wyldejackyl wrote: Hopefully more people get tired of it and take action. Sitting silent does nothing. Calling/writing/emailing your elected representative does nothing.

What do they call it Luke, when your democratic/republican government takes steps on behalf of itself and what's not in the interests of the actual voter? And if you don't like the actions the government is taking..how do you stop them? Do you just ask nicely? Perhaps invite them into your home, let you search your property, maybe throw you in jail for calling them names when they come inside? Perhaps when they take you to jail, you in effect sit there for 10 years without a trial or even without seeing an attorney. Does that sound like fun and/or freedom to you? Well, the Bill of Rights protects against things like that, and people like you seek to abominate it by your untruthful posts about how guns cause crime. Guns don't cause crime. Actually, I might go so far out on a limb to say that drugs don't cause crime either. PEOPLE CAUSE CRIME. their use, their dependency, their reasons for choosing guns and drugs..cause crime. Should we ban people? If you take away one thing, it'll be replaced with another, as the social ill itself wont' go away. Can you not understand that?

If you don't like the actions of your government, vote for someone else to take over, Americans just did that, did you? Now if you have a lack of choice, don't blame me but blame yourself. You are living in a democratic country, nothing is stopping you getting involved Wyldejackyl.
Here in Scotland the Conservatives are a minority party after Labour, the National Party and the Liberal Democrats. We have a strong green party, two "Communist/Socialist" party and some independents all sitting in the Scottish Parliament.
What else is to understand?

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[Lucky Luke]

perdidochas wrote: Lucky Luke wrote: mattman42 wrote: So exactly what about your info proves that gun control led to a decline in homicide? You can't reasonably attribute that fall of murder rates from an all-time high solely to gun control which you yourself have conceded has very little, if any, effect on crime rates.

You tell me Mattman42 what happened to the number of homicides with handguns when compared with the number of homicides with other weapons during all those years and what happened in 1994, how do you explain this? Can you? I can.

Not only gun control has piratically no effect on crime rates but gun control has of course no effect on homicide rates with other weapons than firearms or more precisely only handgun control has a great effect on the homicide rate with handguns, this is what this chart is showing.

:-D
:-D

The problem with your simplistic analysis of this is the great number of guns already in people's hands. Simply stopping the sale of new guns to those without impeccable credentials does little or nothing to affect the guns that are in the system. In a country with 200 million guns, the effects of a total ban on selling guns for a year would be minimal, at least for several years. Your infamous graph shows that decline beginning before there could be a reduction in guns. Therefore, it must be due to some other reasons, such as increased law enforcement and incarceration.

Handguns would be phased out after a generation or two. We are talking about handguns Perdidochas and handguns only, please don't try to move the debate to all guns.

The fall started in 1994, exactly 1994, what could have done this if not the introduction of a national handgun law?

The truth is a lot simpler than you think, it is there right in front of your eyes.
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[perdidochas]

Lucky Luke wrote: perdidochas wrote: Lucky Luke wrote: mattman42 wrote: So exactly what about your info proves that gun control led to a decline in homicide? You can't reasonably attribute that fall of murder rates from an all-time high solely to gun control which you yourself have conceded has very little, if any, effect on crime rates.

You tell me Mattman42 what happened to the number of homicides with handguns when compared with the number of homicides with other weapons during all those years and what happened in 1994, how do you explain this? Can you? I can.

Not only gun control has piratically no effect on crime rates but gun control has of course no effect on homicide rates with other weapons than firearms or more precisely only handgun control has a great effect on the homicide rate with handguns, this is what this chart is showing.

:-D
:-D

The problem with your simplistic analysis of this is the great number of guns already in people's hands. Simply stopping the sale of new guns to those without impeccable credentials does little or nothing to affect the guns that are in the system. In a country with 200 million guns, the effects of a total ban on selling guns for a year would be minimal, at least for several years. Your infamous graph shows that decline beginning before there could be a reduction in guns. Therefore, it must be due to some other reasons, such as increased law enforcement and incarceration.

Handguns would be phased out after a generation or two. We are talking about handguns Perdidochas and handguns only, please don't try to move the debate to all guns.

The fall started in 1994, exactly 1994, what could have done this if not the introduction of a national handgun law?

The truth is a lot simpler than you think, it is there right in front of your eyes.
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What else could have done it? Increased incarceration. Increased emphasis on law enforcement. Simple demographics.

My point is that it would be impossible for those laws to have a practical effect in that short of a time. The supply of guns already in the population would keep any change due to supply of guns from happening for quite a while. Basically, I'm saying that any effect of those laws would occur several years down the road, not instantly, as they seemed to happen.

[wyldejackyl]

Handguns weren't banned in 1994. Only magazine capacity limited.

[Lucky Luke]

perdidochas wrote:

What else could have done it? Increased incarceration. Increased emphasis on law enforcement. Simple demographics.

My point is that it would be impossible for those laws to have a practical effect in that short of a time. The supply of guns already in the population would keep any change due to supply of guns from happening for quite a while. Basically, I'm saying that any effect of those laws would occur several years down the road, not instantly, as they seemed to happen.

Of course those laws were introduced in 1994, from that date any wannabe murderer trying to buy a handgun from a local dealer could not do it without giving a load of information to the authorities. A wannabe murderer is always reluctant from using his/her own gun for obvious reason.

If not the handgun laws what was it Perdidochas? What happened in 1994?

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[Lucky Luke]

wyldejackyl wrote: Handguns weren't banned in 1994. Only magazine capacity limited.

Who said they were banned?

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[evil muppet]

Lucky Luke wrote: evil muppet wrote: Lucky Luke wrote: evil muppet wrote: Lucky Luke. You are so pathetically stupid. You are too stupid to even realize how stupid you are. What a moron.

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There is no need for insults Evil Muppet, rewrite your post if you wish an answer from me.

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f**k you. How about you answer me because I showed how WRONG your argument has been. You cannot refute anything that I've said. I've got your argument by the balls.

There is no need for insults Evil Muppet, rewrite your post if you wish an answer from me.

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OHHH, did someone hurt your feelings? You want me to apologize for calling you b**** tits? You want some ice cream? hmmm? Will that make you fell better? hmmm? Will it? hmmm?

Lucky Luke, you are such a fraud. You continue to peddle false information with a condescending attitude. You don't want to reply because I showed you for the fraud you are.