Political Crossfire Forums

[yETII90]

GrowHydro wrote: yETII90 wrote: Zoot wrote: Yes, those tricky Hamas, twisting the wholesale slaughter of Palestinian civilians around into making Israel seem like bad guys.

I never said Israel was innocent, but yes I don't like Hamas. I don't know, I was blessed with a safe life in America, but if i grew up in a refugee camp, seen my parents humiliated and homeless, seen my family killed as a result of the actions of the same force that is responsible for all the adversities that affect most Palestinians. The generation of Palestinians we have today that you see blowing themselves up, are 3rd or 4th generation refugees. Many of their parents, grandparents, would have fought either in resistance or actual battle, but whats most important is the circumstances of their fight. They want to bring back a time before Israel crushed and oppressed their brothers and sisters, and Israel has the last major superpower today, the US, on its side. This brings with it an almost outright concession for Israel's right to use its military unilaterally. The USA even goes so far as to portray itself as if they even really don't care.

Many Palestinians don't have many options, and they as a people are, or at least have now become, proud, selfless, and religious.

An act of terrorism, can not be ultimately judged for what it is until it is fully understood.

I understand their frustrations, but pure violence doesn't work, and won't solve anything for them.

Let me give you an example, The Sikhs in India thought that they were being mistreated just like the Palestinians are now. In the early 1980's they decided to take a more violent route to solving the problems and hoped to have their own state, which resulted in their most imporant Gurdwarda (Sikh place of worship), being attacked by the Indian Army, and many were killed. Afterwards the violence had ended, they started to come up with more peaceful solutions to the problem and they have now created a better position for themselves in Inidan society (not perfect), and they now have a Sikh Prime Minister.

[mr_happy]

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/785473.html


"An Israel Defense Forces inquiry committee, headed by Major General Meir Kalifi, is examining two main options for what caused an IDF shell to stray 500 meters off course to the northern Gaza Strip town of Beit Hanun, killing 19 Palestinians, mostly women and children."

Here we have an Israeli investigation into the killings.

"At 4 P.M. on Tuesday, four new and improved Qassam rockets were fired at Ashkelon from a copse north of Beit Hanun. No one was hurt.

Later that evening, the IDF obtained intelligence indicating that Hamas intended to fire more of the new-model Qassams at Ashkelon Wednesday morning, apparently from the same site  which was chosen because it is not visible from any IDF lookout post.

The Gaza Division - which has in general sharply reduced its use of artillery fire since Brigadier General Moshe Tamir took command of it in August - therefore instructed the artillery battery stationed at Be'eri to be prepared to shell the site, in the hope that this would deter the Qassam launchers from going there.

The battery then made the usual preparations to adjust the range: It fired three or four shells at a site a few hundred meters away from the real target and used the battery's radar to find out where they had landed, after which it adjusted the guns' settings accordingly.

At about 5:30 A.M. Wednesday morning, the battery fired 12 shells programmed to land about 1,200 meters from the houses of Beit Hanun. These shells hit the target and caused no casualties.

At 5:45 A.M., the battery fired another 12 shells, this time programmed to land about 450 meters from the houses. All were launched from a single barrel to increase the accuracy. According to the battery's radar, 10 shells hit the target, but the radar was unable to determine where the other two had landed. A few minutes later, the first reports of civilian casualties in Beit Hanun began arriving."

Preliminary findings of the investigation

"According to the IDF, the "normal" margin of error for an artillery shell
under these conditions is about 200 meters, which is why IDF regulations for Gaza state that artillery targets must be at least 200 to 300 meters from civilian houses. But a 450-meter deviation would require only a three-degree deviation in the gun barrel, which is "undetectable by the human eye," said Brigadier General (reserves) Zvi Fogel, a former senior artillery officer."

Preliminary findings of the causes for the deaths.

"Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and Defense Minister Peretz on Wednesday expressed regret over the Gaza deaths, and Peretz called for a cease in shelling pending the results of the probe."

Initial reaction to the deaths


Now before everyone goes **** here and begins screaming murder, look at the facts.

1) artillery fire killed the people
-Artillery fire is known to be inaccurate. Thats why the US prohibits its use in urban areas and why the IDF has a 200M restriction.

2) Minute changes in gun elevation lead to dramatic changes in direction
-It happened in Manila in 1945, it happened in Afghanistan, it will still happen. Human error kills.

3)Israel has no reason to kill innocent people
-THe stated IDF goal in the operation is to stop Kassam attacks. Wasting shells (which are NOT cheap) on women and children will not get the job done. Very few people here understand the whole concept of fighting a guerrilla war: Civillian casulaties hurt your side. There is no rational reason for SIrael to wantonly murder civillians. It serves no purpose and only hurts the PR and wastes lots of money. If they wanted to massacre people bullets would be a lot cheaper.

4) Peretz ceased ALL artillery fire in the region.
-I dono, but it seems to me this would run contrary to the goal of massacring as many innocent children as possible.


People, this is not some wanton massacre that the jooz concocted to massacre the entire Palestinian popluation by killing 19 people. This is pretty much a textbook case of why you don't use artillery near urban settings. Its happened before and probably will happen again around the world. The important thing now is to see Israels reaction They've already ceased firing artillery for the moment. Hopefully now they'll increase the "safety zone" around urban areas. 500 meters isn't enough anymore.

"According to Army Radio, Peretz has instructed Major General Yosef Mishlav, the government coordinator for the territories, to provide emergency humanitarian support for Palestinians hurt in the shelling.

Peretz also decided to open the Rafah crossing for two days in order to ease conditions for Gaza residents, Army Radio reported."

Yeah, its really stupid to medically treat the people you're trying to massacre. Face it, somebody f****d up. This isn't some devious plot to kill the Palestinians 19 at a time.

Hopefully those innocents will use the medical aid offered to them.

[GrowHydro]

yETII90 wrote: GrowHydro wrote: yETII90 wrote: Zoot wrote: Yes, those tricky Hamas, twisting the wholesale slaughter of Palestinian civilians around into making Israel seem like bad guys.

I never said Israel was innocent, but yes I don't like Hamas. I don't know, I was blessed with a safe life in America, but if i grew up in a refugee camp, seen my parents humiliated and homeless, seen my family killed as a result of the actions of the same force that is responsible for all the adversities that affect most Palestinians. The generation of Palestinians we have today that you see blowing themselves up, are 3rd or 4th generation refugees. Many of their parents, grandparents, would have fought either in resistance or actual battle, but whats most important is the circumstances of their fight. They want to bring back a time before Israel crushed and oppressed their brothers and sisters, and Israel has the last major superpower today, the US, on its side. This brings with it an almost outright concession for Israel's right to use its military unilaterally. The USA even goes so far as to portray itself as if they even really don't care.

Many Palestinians don't have many options, and they as a people are, or at least have now become, proud, selfless, and religious.

An act of terrorism, can not be ultimately judged for what it is until it is fully understood.

I understand their frustrations, but pure violence doesn't work, and won't solve anything for them.

Let me give you an example, The Sikhs in India thought that they were being mistreated just like the Palestinians are now. In the early 1980's they decided to take a more violent route to solving the problems and hoped to have their own state, which resulted in their most imporant Gurdwarda (Sikh place of worship), being attacked by the Indian Army, and many were killed. Afterwards the violence had ended, they started to come up with more peaceful solutions to the problem and they have now created a better position for themselves in Inidan society (not perfect), and they now have a Sikh Prime Minister.
Ahhh, its good to finally have an actual honorable debate.

Of course you do, and all good people would, but I believe there's more to the movement than just violence.

You are missing a very important part of the Palestinian Resistance movement. In India people in high positions incited mobs and violence against the Sikhs, and there may have always been resentment there, but in Palestine, the entire crisis situation was initiated by masses of people being pulled into a warzone and then told at gunpoint to leave their homes. The soldiers intention was that as Jews, they have the right to use any means necessary to resurrect the state of Israel. Hundreds of thousands of people. It is a dramatic and horrible moment in history, and if I was a betting man I'd say the majority of informed people, at the least, know about its existence.

Now remember support for the Palestinians is not restricted to Gaza and the West Bank, the Lebanese have also felt the sting of Israeli greed. Hezbollah is the result. Hezbollah and Hamas, one Sunni and one Shiite, consider each other brothers and all part of the same movement. The Prophet Muhammed, peace be upon him, once said that the Muslims are like the human body in their mutual affection and sympathy , if one part of it suffers, the others feel uneasy. There is one Ummah, spanning from Iran to Palestine, to Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, and all over the world.

Now about violence. I believe that violence hasn't left the conflict since its beginning, and it will not end without it. The UN sees the fighting of refugees to return to their homes as a legitimate human right. Somewhere out there, are a good number of people who actually experienced this exodus, and their children and their children's children, still face oppression under occupation. Religiously, our scripture says:
Quote: [4:75] Why should you not fight in the cause of GOD when weak men, women, and children are imploring: "Our Lord, deliver us from this community whose people are oppressive, and be You our Lord and Master."
Quote: [2:243] Have you noted those who fled their homes - though they were in the thousands - fearing death? GOD said to them, "Die," then revived them. GOD showers His grace upon the people, but most people are unappreciative.
[2:244] You shall fight in the cause of GOD, and know that GOD is Hearer, Knower.
[2:245] Who would lend GOD a loan of righteousness, to have it repaid to them multiplied manifold? GOD is the One who provides and withholds, and to Him you will be returned.

[yETII90]

GrowHydro wrote: yETII90 wrote: GrowHydro wrote: yETII90 wrote: Zoot wrote: Yes, those tricky Hamas, twisting the wholesale slaughter of Palestinian civilians around into making Israel seem like bad guys.

I never said Israel was innocent, but yes I don't like Hamas. I don't know, I was blessed with a safe life in America, but if i grew up in a refugee camp, seen my parents humiliated and homeless, seen my family killed as a result of the actions of the same force that is responsible for all the adversities that affect most Palestinians. The generation of Palestinians we have today that you see blowing themselves up, are 3rd or 4th generation refugees. Many of their parents, grandparents, would have fought either in resistance or actual battle, but whats most important is the circumstances of their fight. They want to bring back a time before Israel crushed and oppressed their brothers and sisters, and Israel has the last major superpower today, the US, on its side. This brings with it an almost outright concession for Israel's right to use its military unilaterally. The USA even goes so far as to portray itself as if they even really don't care.

Many Palestinians don't have many options, and they as a people are, or at least have now become, proud, selfless, and religious.

An act of terrorism, can not be ultimately judged for what it is until it is fully understood.

I understand their frustrations, but pure violence doesn't work, and won't solve anything for them.

Let me give you an example, The Sikhs in India thought that they were being mistreated just like the Palestinians are now. In the early 1980's they decided to take a more violent route to solving the problems and hoped to have their own state, which resulted in their most imporant Gurdwarda (Sikh place of worship), being attacked by the Indian Army, and many were killed. Afterwards the violence had ended, they started to come up with more peaceful solutions to the problem and they have now created a better position for themselves in Inidan society (not perfect), and they now have a Sikh Prime Minister.
Ahhh, its good to finally have an actual honorable debate.

Of course you do, and all good people would, but I believe there's more to the movement than just violence.

You are missing a very important part of the Palestinian Resistance movement. In India people in high positions incited mobs and violence against the Sikhs, and there may have always been resentment there, but in Palestine, the entire crisis situation was initiated by masses of people being pulled into a warzone and then told at gunpoint to leave their homes. The soldiers intention was that as Jews, they have the right to use any means necessary to resurrect the state of Israel. Hundreds of thousands of people. It is a dramatic and horrible moment in history, and if I was a betting man I'd say the majority of informed people, at the least, know about its existence.

The Sikhs also were also forced to leave from their homes (The Sikh home/major state of Punjab, at the time crossed both modern day Pakistan and India), in the Pakistan-India crisis, which they held some resentment from, in this conflict. The Sikhs also claimed that they were being mistreated because they were not Hindus.

Now remember support for the Palestinians is not restricted to Gaza and the West Bank, the Lebanese have also felt the sting of Israeli greed. Hezbollah is the result. Hezbollah and Hamas, one Sunni and one Shiite, consider each other brothers and all part of the same movement. The Prophet Muhammed, peace be upon him, once said that the Muslims are like the human body in their mutual affection and sympathy , if one part of it suffers, the others feel uneasy. There is one Ummah, spanning from Iran to Palestine, to Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, and all over the world.

Ofcourse the same thing was with the Sikhs also as the day after the 1984 attack on the Golden Temple, mass protests and groups sprang up in the West, especially the UK and Canada. Also I think that Hizbollah and Hamas are treating each other as the "enemy of my enemy" and not really as friends because there are tensions boiling over the issue of Shia vs. Sunni still.

Now about violence. I believe that violence hasn't left the conflict since its beginning, and it will not end without it. The UN sees the fighting of refugees to return to their homes as a legitimate human right. Somewhere out there, are a good number of people who actually experienced this exodus, and their children and their children's children, still face oppression under occupation. Religiously, our scripture says:
Quote: [4:75] Why should you not fight in the cause of GOD when weak men, women, and children are imploring: "Our Lord, deliver us from this community whose people are oppressive, and be You our Lord and Master."
Quote: [2:243] Have you noted those who fled their homes - though they were in the thousands - fearing death? GOD said to them, "Die," then revived them. GOD showers His grace upon the people, but most people are unappreciative.
[2:244] You shall fight in the cause of GOD, and know that GOD is Hearer, Knower.
[2:245] Who would lend GOD a loan of righteousness, to have it repaid to them multiplied manifold? GOD is the One who provides and withholds, and to Him you will be returned.

You must also consider what is pragmatic and what is working. Right now in the Movement there are two factions the violent side (Hamas and Hizbollah), and the peaceful one (Abbas). Abbas has been the one delievering majorly, as he has advanced the cause of the Palestinians beyond what Arafat and Hamas could even hope of doing.

[emerald]

18 more innocent civilians killed, alongside the countless others before it, and the only thing you hear on tv is how Israel needs to defend itself....is it only israel thats allowed to defend it's self? palestinians arent allowed the right of defence? oh yeah...forgot theyre the terrorists.....terrorists arent allowed rights......

:x :x :x :x

[cap'n queasy]

How can shooting rockets into civilian areas and suicide bombings be construed as defense? That is aggression.

Some advice for Palestinians:

Stop attacking Israel and they will stop retaliating. It's that simple.

[Zeeman]

cap'n queasy wrote: How can shooting rockets into civilian areas and suicide bombings be construed as defense? That is aggression.



Take the suicide bombing out of it and you have got what Israel is doing to Palestinians...simple as that you just need to see things from two sides.Plus there has been more excessive force from one side against the other...

[agentkgb]

Zeeman wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: How can shooting rockets into civilian areas and suicide bombings be construed as defense? That is aggression.



Take the suicide bombing out of it and you have got what Israel is doing to Palestinians...simple as that you just need to see things from two sides.Plus there has been more excessive force from one side against the other...
Suicide bombings are basically like regular bombings except with an additional death of a militant.
I'm not in any way saying that suicide bombings that kill civilians are moral, just that the fact that some Palestinians do that does not justify Israel doing the same thing with more advanced weapons.

[prometeus]

agentkgb wrote: ... that does not justify Israel doing the same thing with more advanced weapons.

It is a sad and vicious circle. Like a bad merry go round gone insane and nobody wants to get off, because who knows, just after one gets off, it will fix itself and a prize will be give out to those who stay.
The Palestinians do what they do because they want something, the IDF punishes with a heavy hand in order to discourage repeats, then the Palestinians must even the score, which will prompt more punishment from Israel, and round and round it goes.

I'll say this again, good, bad right or wrong, Israel will ALWAYS "defend" itself, to their last man, and when the last man will leave he'll turn out ALL the lights, permanently. Now by contrast Palestinians are the only ones that can put an end to this. That may be again, right, wrong or anything in between, it is reality.

[slitedeviance]

prometeus wrote: I'll say this again, good, bad right or wrong, Israel will ALWAYS "defend" itself, to their last man, and when the last man will leave he'll turn out ALL the lights, permanently. Now by contrast Palestinians are the only ones that can put an end to this. That may be again, right, wrong or anything in between, it is reality.

I'd say thats a damn good summary of the situation.

[superskippy]

I would expect a deep and comprehensive investigation into this and to make that investigation public and if there is individual criminal fault I would sorely hope for some heads to roll. Regardless of what the Palestinian terrorists do there is no excuse for this, we have to hold ourselves to a higher standard and there simply isnt any excuse for this.

[agentkgb]

superskippy wrote: I would expect a deep and comprehensive investigation into this and to make that investigation public and if there is individual criminal fault I would sorely hope for some heads to roll. Regardless of what the Palestinian terrorists do there is no excuse for this, we have to hold ourselves to a higher standard and there simply isnt any excuse for this.
I think Israel is doing its own investigation but anyone hoping for an independent investigation might be out of luck. :(

[agentkgb]

prometeus wrote: agentkgb wrote: ... that does not justify Israel doing the same thing with more advanced weapons.

It is a sad and vicious circle. Like a bad merry go round gone insane and nobody wants to get off, because who knows, just after one gets off, it will fix itself and a prize will be give out to those who stay.
The Palestinians do what they do because they want something, the IDF punishes with a heavy hand in order to discourage repeats, then the Palestinians must even the score, which will prompt more punishment from Israel, and round and round it goes.
I'd agree with most of that. :(

[superskippy]

Quote: I think Israel is doing its own investigation but anyone hoping for an independent investigation might be out of luck.

Independent is highly charged since who is Independent? I dont trust Amnesty or HRU etc, nor would I trust a French or UN Independent investigation. Who would you trust? I would like to have a non-governmental domestic investigation including Btselem but as well as other groups. If it had to be international (Though that is clearly indicative of a biased perspective on Israel compared to this exact thing that goes on in other countries every day) I would want American, Argentinian, and Turkish Military investigators.

[agentkgb]

superskippy wrote: Quote: I think Israel is doing its own investigation but anyone hoping for an independent investigation might be out of luck.

Independent is highly charged since who is Independent? I dont trust Amnesty or HRU etc, nor would I trust a French or UN Independent investigation. Who would you trust? I would like to have a non-governmental domestic investigation including Btselem but as well as other groups. If it had to be international (Though that is clearly indicative of a biased perspective on Israel compared to this exact thing that goes on in other countries every day) I would want American, Argentinian, and Turkish Military investigators.
Well, I was thinking independent as in just "not Israel," but I'd trust no one government to do it nor any one organization.

[SpartanPhalanx]

cap'n queasy wrote: How can shooting rockets into civilian areas and suicide bombings be construed as defense? That is aggression.

Some advice for Palestinians:

Stop attacking Israel and they will stop retaliating. It's that simple.


Hardly Cap'n....Israel withdrew from Gaza last Summer and promptly renewed its extra-judicial assassinations of militants in the Strip. If Israel wants to stop the rocket attacks, stop assassinating the other side.

It's that simple.

[superskippy]

As I recall what was the first act of violence when we withdrew from Gaza? At the end of August right after the withdrawel Islamic Jihad suicide bombed a bus station in an attempt to board and blow up a bus, followed the gunmen who killed another half dozen people and then the rocket attacks.

[Saracen]

superskippy wrote: As I recall what was the first act of violence when we withdrew from Gaza? At the end of August right after the withdrawel Islamic Jihad suicide bombed a bus station in an attempt to board and blow up a bus, followed the gunmen who killed another half dozen people and then the rocket attacks.

You forget to mention the sonic booms and the intimidation of the local populace. Miscarriages also resulted from this.

[superskippy]

Saracen you cannot equate a sonic boom with a suicide bomb, the people of Oklahamo would disagree with you and the extensive 6 month 24/7 study that took place at Oklahamo City thoroughly discredits any attempts to affix medical blame to the Sonic Booms.

The US government had jets carry out 9-14 sonic booms per day for a year coming to nearly 1,430 sonic booms in barely 6 months over Oklahoma City. The result was shattered windows and a temporary interruption in lifestyle in some people and irritation amongst most. At the conclusion of the test 73% of the people said if they had to they could live with the sonic booms every day. The people were understandibly outraged at being subjected to this inconveniance by their government and sued, however since there was no medical damage caused or evidence of permanent disruption in life there was no substantial case in that area.

The test though orchastrated terribly proved several things, one that there was no medical damage involved from sonic boom overflights (Honestly do you really think there werent thousands of pregnant woman and doctors wouldnt notice anything irregular over 6 months and thousands of sonic booms and draw a link?), this was substantiated by medical reports from the city and the obvious aftermath findings. It also proved that once it became routine the psychological effect could be dealt with by the vast majority of people.

The recent claim that the Sonic Booms causes miscarriages is grasping at straws it has no basis in medical fact, and goes against the largest live test of Sonic Booms and the most heavily documented in the history of the world. It is desperate attempt to provide justification for the Palestinians and to lambast Israel. It has garnered little attention in the independent scientific community due to the existance of massive previous tests as well as lack of any evidence.

Saracen the Palestinians got a loud crack from Jets sometimes and sometimes we wouldnt or wont send a jet over for a month. If millions of people could live with it and ignore it after more than a thousand times including close a hundred a week you cannot honestly tell me that the poor Palestinians were so shocked and traumatized. And then also tell me that it is a valid justification for an attack.

And the thing on Miscarriages simply isnt true.

[Venom]

Quote: You forget to mention the sonic booms and the intimidation of the local populace. Miscarriages also resulted from this.
Ya it had nothing to do with dirty living conditions in the ME.... just sonic booms... This is an odd question but in Iraq the Iraqi people use their left hand instead of toilet paper... is this the same in Palestine?
Some of the practices aren't quite healthy that I've noticed in the ME.... a bit more unhealthy than a simple sonic boom.