Political Crossfire Forums

[British boy]

We all have had situations where lying has seemed beneficial, so I ask is it always wrong to lie?

[agentkgb]

No. If, for instance, there is a group ready to massacre a group of civilians and you know where they are, certainly telling the truth would be wrong and since lying could send them in the wrong direction, thereby reducing the probability of them finding the civilians on their own, I think lying would be the moral thing to do.

[LostSoul3412]

Yes.

Anyone that says otherwise is merely attempting to justify their own behavior.

[Fido]

It depends upon the limits of your morality. Honesty is an essential part of honor, but honor and morality are usually indistinguishable. It depends like morality upon your community and your definition of your community. For example, Republicans and Democrats usually have no problem with lying to the people. They define themselves differently from the common man. Each might mouth platitudes, but not lie to their own, unless totally without honor. Only if you see yourself as human does general dishonesty become immoral.

[Red Flag]

LostSoul3412 wrote: Yes.

Anyone that says otherwise is merely attempting to justify their own behavior. And who are you to decide what is or isn't Moral? :roll:

[LostSoul3412]

Red Flag wrote: LostSoul3412 wrote: Yes.

Anyone that says otherwise is merely attempting to justify their own behavior. And who are you to decide what is or isn't Moral? :roll:

I am an individual, and as such I have the authority to hold individual opinions on morality, and what is, or is not, moral.

[milk carton]

it depends on the situation and the person really. sometimes lying like the massacre is good but lying to friends and family is almost always wrong and shouldn't happen.

[Red Flag]

LostSoul3412 wrote: Red Flag wrote: LostSoul3412 wrote: Yes.

Anyone that says otherwise is merely attempting to justify their own behavior. And who are you to decide what is or isn't Moral? :roll:

I am an individual, and as such I have the authority to hold individual opinions on morality, and what is, or is not, moral. Sure, but you were referring to everyone elses morality. Morality isn't relevant, except to the individual himself. Therefore if I lie in my own best interests then technically I am not doing anything morally wrong to begin with.

Nazi: Where are the jews??

Me: No idea dude.

Nazi: Damn!

[LostSoul3412]

Red Flag wrote: LostSoul3412 wrote: Red Flag wrote: LostSoul3412 wrote: Yes.

Anyone that says otherwise is merely attempting to justify their own behavior. And who are you to decide what is or isn't Moral? :roll:

I am an individual, and as such I have the authority to hold individual opinions on morality, and what is, or is not, moral. Sure, but you were referring to everyone elses morality. Morality isn't relevant, except to the individual himself. Therefore if I lie in my own best interests then technically I am not doing anything morally wrong to begin with.

Sure you are, you're lying. An individual is free to develop their own morals, but even then, that individual's morals are absolute. Lying is either good, or bad. It cannot be both, and if it is both, then it is merely an attempt for the individual to justify their own immoral behavior because they are afraid to admit their own flaws.

Personally, I say that lying is always wrong, and that we are all immoral creatures.

[Red Flag]

LostSoul3412 wrote: Red Flag wrote: LostSoul3412 wrote: Red Flag wrote: LostSoul3412 wrote: Yes.

Anyone that says otherwise is merely attempting to justify their own behavior. And who are you to decide what is or isn't Moral? :roll:

I am an individual, and as such I have the authority to hold individual opinions on morality, and what is, or is not, moral. Sure, but you were referring to everyone elses morality. Morality isn't relevant, except to the individual himself. Therefore if I lie in my own best interests then technically I am not doing anything morally wrong to begin with.

Sure you are, you're lying. An individual is free to develop their own morals, but even then, that individual's morals are absolute. Lying is either good, or bad. It cannot be both, and if it is both, then it is merely an attempt for the individual to justify their own immoral behavior because they are afraid to admit their own flaws.

Personally, I say that lying is always wrong, and that we are all immoral creatures. Then you simply lack confidence! :-D

[LostSoul3412]

Red Flag wrote: LostSoul3412 wrote: Red Flag wrote: LostSoul3412 wrote: Red Flag wrote: LostSoul3412 wrote: Yes.

Anyone that says otherwise is merely attempting to justify their own behavior. And who are you to decide what is or isn't Moral? :roll:

I am an individual, and as such I have the authority to hold individual opinions on morality, and what is, or is not, moral. Sure, but you were referring to everyone elses morality. Morality isn't relevant, except to the individual himself. Therefore if I lie in my own best interests then technically I am not doing anything morally wrong to begin with.

Sure you are, you're lying. An individual is free to develop their own morals, but even then, that individual's morals are absolute. Lying is either good, or bad. It cannot be both, and if it is both, then it is merely an attempt for the individual to justify their own immoral behavior because they are afraid to admit their own flaws.

Personally, I say that lying is always wrong, and that we are all immoral creatures. Then you simply lack confidence! :-D

Actually, I believe it is you who lack self-confidence.

I am confident enough to admit my sins; you are not.

[Red Flag]

LostSoul3412 wrote: Red Flag wrote: LostSoul3412 wrote: Red Flag wrote: LostSoul3412 wrote: Red Flag wrote: LostSoul3412 wrote: Yes.

Anyone that says otherwise is merely attempting to justify their own behavior. And who are you to decide what is or isn't Moral? :roll:

I am an individual, and as such I have the authority to hold individual opinions on morality, and what is, or is not, moral. Sure, but you were referring to everyone elses morality. Morality isn't relevant, except to the individual himself. Therefore if I lie in my own best interests then technically I am not doing anything morally wrong to begin with.

Sure you are, you're lying. An individual is free to develop their own morals, but even then, that individual's morals are absolute. Lying is either good, or bad. It cannot be both, and if it is both, then it is merely an attempt for the individual to justify their own immoral behavior because they are afraid to admit their own flaws.

Personally, I say that lying is always wrong, and that we are all immoral creatures. Then you simply lack confidence! :-D

Actually, I believe it is you who lack self-confidence.

I am confident enough to admit my sins; you are not. I lack MORE because I am able to recognize that actions that benefit me are not sins at all! I am a Roman Catholic, and still an Anarchist I can admit my sins, lying to benefit other people for the sake of ridding the world of Genocide is always justified.

[LostSoul3412]

Red Flag wrote: I lack MORE because I am able to recognize that actions that benefit me are not sins at all! I am a Roman Catholic, and still an Anarchist I can admit my sins, lying to benefit other people for the sake of ridding the world of Genocide is always justified.

The lesser of two evils is still evil.

I'm not saying you shouldn't, I'm just saying that it's still wrong.

[Aelryn]

My belief is agnostic, but this thread isn't about religion, so I'm only briefly going to touch on it; I believe in the bible it mentions not bearing false witness against an individual, but I don't recall lying in the ten commandments, so citing sin seems a little out of place; however, I will be the first to admit I am far from flawless in bible study. Feel free to correct me.

More on track, I consider lying to have less to do with morals than with ethics; ethics has far more shades of gray than morals usually do, although as pointed out morals are relative to a situation. Someone cited honor, but honor too is relative to a person; everyone has their own code of honor, and some codes of honor are drastically and completely different from one another. Our typical view of "honor" is that it is wrong to lie, but honor being an ethical premise, lying fails to fall into that category. In my opinion, lying is not always morally wrong unless the lie itself pertains to an immediately moral situation ("Did you kill that man?"), although it is very rarely ethically correct.

The assumption that all actions must be good or evil is flawed, in my opinion. When is it good or evil to sneeze, or brush your hair? Why would it be evil to lie to a group of armed nazis asking where the jewish child went, as opposed to telling them the truth or refusing to tell them anything and getting yourself killed? "Fear not for your life" does not imply "Act stupidly and provoke actions that may cause your own or another's death," ; indeed, taking a moment back to the bible once more, I seem to remember something about not tempting god unnecessarily.

[bob.appleyard]

When making a decision, the likely outcomes of the options should be considered. There are only a few things which are always, under all circumstances, wrong. At least, as far as I'm concerned, that's how it flies.

[LostSoul3412]

bob.appleyard wrote: When making a decision, the likely outcomes of the options should be considered. There are only a few things which are always, under all circumstances, wrong. At least, as far as I'm concerned, that's how it flies.

I think that things are either right or wrong, but most choices are between two evils. Standing alone, the choices are both wrong, but when compared to each other one appears to be "right".

[mODULAR mAN]

Kant believed it was always immoral to lie, to even break a promise.

If you said you would meet someone at 2:00 and on the way you saw someone who needed help, you were morally bound to help the person, but also morally bound to keep your word.

He claimed sometimes you have to do something immoral if it means being more moral overall.

I don't care for Kant, so i voted "no".

[rhetoric]

So in theory even an attempt to tell the truth and not knowing it was a lie when you told it, would be immoral?

[Feslin]

Lying is not always morally wrong, there must be a logical reason that makes something immoral other than, "It's immoral."

[Whitefields]

agentkgb wrote: No. If, for instance, there is a group ready to massacre a group of civilians and you know where they are, certainly telling the truth would be wrong and since lying could send them in the wrong direction, thereby reducing the probability of them finding the civilians on their own, I think lying would be the moral thing to do.

In this situation, I'd probably opt out of lying and just be quiet for a couple reasons:

1. I'm not a good liar.
2. I'd rather not lie.
3. I could probably waste more time by driving them crazy with my silence.

Of course they'd probably torture me to death, so I'm just hoping I don't ever have to make this sort of choice.