Political Crossfire Forums

[ToonArmyIsComing]

Hezbullah is being further entrenched in the Lebanese society as it is the main entity that is directing the reconstruction efforts in Lebanon. Was the Lebanon war supposed to weaken Hezbullah or further entrench them?

Quote: Iran 'sending funds to Hezbollah'

A senior Hezbollah official has told the BBC that Iran is providing the group with money to help fund its reconstruction activities in Lebanon.

Kassam Allaik said Iran also had its own groups in Lebanon, rebuilding bridges, roads and mosques.

Lebanon's Finance Minister, Jihad Azour, also acknowledged that Iranian money is going directly to Hezbollah.

Mr Azour said that he is trying to persuade Iran to finance the relief effort through the government.

Since the end of the conflict with Israel, Hezbollah has shifted focus from fighting to reconstruction.

It has paid lump sums of cash to the 15,000 or so households which lost their homes in the fighting and it has organised teams of engineers to help with the rebuilding.

'Direct transfer'

Mr Allaik, the head of Hezbollah's construction arm - Jihad Construction - has admitted that Iran is providing funds directly to Hezbollah to help the reconstruction effort.

He said that Iran also has its own groups in Lebanon rebuilding bridges, roads, mosques and schools

Mr Azour has said that he has been in talks with Iranian officials who had promised to direct funds through the Lebanese government but so far no money has been received.

"Iran is officially providing assistance to Hezbollah, but the reconstruction is done by the government," Mr Azour said.

"The government repaired electricity, repaired telecommunication, repaired the roads, repaired the water. And the government is compensating for the loss of houses," he said.

"Therefore what Iran is giving is a direct transfer to a political party, not to Lebanon as a country, as a state, if you want."

Tensions are growing between the Lebanese government and Hezbollah in the aftermath of the conflict with Israel.

Hezbollah's leader, Hassan Nasrallah, has threatened to organise street protests later this month to push for a government of national unity in a bid to increase his influence.

And the issue of funding for reconstruction is a sensitive one, especially as many people in southern Beirut and the south of Lebanon have been crediting Hezbollah rather than the Lebanese government for the rebuilding so far.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6112036.stm

[yETII90]

ToonArmyIsComing wrote: Hezbullah is being further entrenched in the Lebanese society as it is the main entity that is directing the reconstruction efforts in Lebanon. Was the Lebanon war supposed to weaken Hezbullah or further entrench them?

Quote: Iran 'sending funds to Hezbollah'

A senior Hezbollah official has told the BBC that Iran is providing the group with money to help fund its reconstruction activities in Lebanon.

Kassam Allaik said Iran also had its own groups in Lebanon, rebuilding bridges, roads and mosques.

Lebanon's Finance Minister, Jihad Azour, also acknowledged that Iranian money is going directly to Hezbollah.

Mr Azour said that he is trying to persuade Iran to finance the relief effort through the government.

Since the end of the conflict with Israel, Hezbollah has shifted focus from fighting to reconstruction.

It has paid lump sums of cash to the 15,000 or so households which lost their homes in the fighting and it has organised teams of engineers to help with the rebuilding.

'Direct transfer'

Mr Allaik, the head of Hezbollah's construction arm - Jihad Construction - has admitted that Iran is providing funds directly to Hezbollah to help the reconstruction effort.

He said that Iran also has its own groups in Lebanon rebuilding bridges, roads, mosques and schools

Mr Azour has said that he has been in talks with Iranian officials who had promised to direct funds through the Lebanese government but so far no money has been received.

"Iran is officially providing assistance to Hezbollah, but the reconstruction is done by the government," Mr Azour said.

"The government repaired electricity, repaired telecommunication, repaired the roads, repaired the water. And the government is compensating for the loss of houses," he said.

"Therefore what Iran is giving is a direct transfer to a political party, not to Lebanon as a country, as a state, if you want."

Tensions are growing between the Lebanese government and Hezbollah in the aftermath of the conflict with Israel.

Hezbollah's leader, Hassan Nasrallah, has threatened to organise street protests later this month to push for a government of national unity in a bid to increase his influence.

And the issue of funding for reconstruction is a sensitive one, especially as many people in southern Beirut and the south of Lebanon have been crediting Hezbollah rather than the Lebanese government for the rebuilding so far.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6112036.stm

It was supposed to weaken them, but it ended up entrenching them by helping them gain an ally in Iran, and give them a rallying cry at home. This just proves my point, and speaking of the Lebanese conflict where are those two Israeli soldiers again? I haven't heard anything about them or their families?

[czechmate]

Quote: it ended up entrenching them by helping them gain an ally in Iran

Iran had been funding hezbollah long before the conflict started. And so had the syrian govt. Nasrallah should be dealt with as soon as possible for the sake of both israel and lebanon. I regret that israel didnt annihilate the movement and let the UN 'resolve' the conflict. All the guys at the UN can ever do is to send angry letters.

[Saracen]

I think it entrenched them further. Nothing strategic about it... I think it's good that Hizbullah could moderate itself to a political force. Its actions during the summer could no way be compared with that of the Israeli army. Hizbullah was defending Lebanon, but Israel was destroying it and invading it. This isn't to excuse Hizbullah, but I believe that they should disarm and join the Lebanese political and military institutions.

[Venom]

Quote: I think it's good that Hizbullah could moderate itself to a political force. Its actions during the summer could no way be compared with that of the Israeli army
I'm glad the ME believes kidnap and murder is moderating yourself as a political force....

It's action cannot be compared to the IDF your correct. Why? Because Hezbollah instigated and the IDF retaliated.

Quote: Hizbullah was defending Lebanon, but Israel was destroying it and invading it
Funny thing that Hezbollah came to kill IDF troops and kidnap them before the IDF invaded and destroyed parts of Souther Lebanon.

Quote: This isn't to excuse Hizbullah, but I believe that they should disarm and join the Lebanese political and military institutions.
I think everyone agress yet Lebanon will not do anything about it and neither will the UN. The only ones that would do something about it were Israel and your so strongly against this action. So preaching inaction is hardly helpful by my views.

[Saracen]

Venom wrote: I'm glad the ME believes kidnap and murder is moderating yourself as a political force....

It's action cannot be compared to the IDF your correct. Why? Because Hezbollah instigated and the IDF retaliated.

And yet you forget about the Lebanese and Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails, the land mines in southern Lebanon, and the Israeli jets that continue to intimidate the Lebanese. Not to mention the slaughter of innocents in Gaza and the West Bank.

Quote: Funny thing that Hezbollah came to kill IDF troops and kidnap them before the IDF invaded and destroyed parts of Souther Lebanon.

That was actually after the I"D"F refused to listen to Hizbullah. Hizbullah was clearly provoked.

Quote: I think everyone agress yet Lebanon will not do anything about it and neither will the UN. The only ones that would do something about it were Israel and your so strongly against this action. So preaching inaction is hardly helpful by my views.

The world does not revolve around Israel.

[slitedeviance]

I think the way this has played out in the last couple of months has shown how different methods need to be pursued in the ME to avoid miltant groups like Hizbollah becoming more prominent.

The IDF's response was bound to end up working in Hizbollahs favour. In cold hard terms, every Lebanese civilian killed in lebanon was another poster for Hizbollah to recruit with. Every Hizbollah militant killed is a hero of the resistance, and to be celebrated as such. Every Israeli civilian killed was justified for them by the aggression of the IDF, and every Israeli soldier that died is another small victory.

Out and out assault is not going to win these situations. It's the same principle as going after Bin Laden. The more damage you cause trying to get to the target, the more support they have. A different approach is clearly needed for responses in situations like these.

[Rankor and Pissing]

Saracen wrote: I think it entrenched them further. Nothing strategic about it... I think it's good that Hizbullah could moderate itself to a political force.

Saracen - are you kidding? Moderate itself? Have you seen "Obsession" yet?

Saracen wrote: Its actions during the summer could no way be compared with that of the Israeli army. Hizbullah was defending Lebanon, but Israel was destroying it and invading it. Hezbollah isn't the Lebanese army or security force. Hezbollah is a terrorist organization. So you're saying a terrorist organization defended a sovereign state with the assistance of Iran, who finances that terrorist organization. And this is "moderate" in what sense and in comparison to what exactly?

Saracen wrote: This isn't to excuse Hizbullah, but I believe that they should disarm and join the Lebanese political and military institutions. You seem conflicted - first you way that Hezbollah is moderate and in no way as "bad" as Israel and even suggest that Hezbollah's actions are somehow "noble" in that they defended Lebanon from Israel, but then in the same breath, say Hezbollah should disarm.

Why would moderates need to disarm? Is it because they aren't really moderate?

[Plato & Socrates]

yETII90 wrote:

It was supposed to weaken them, but it ended up entrenching them by helping them gain an ally in Iran, and give them a rallying cry at home. This just proves my point, and speaking of the Lebanese conflict where are those two Israeli soldiers again? I haven't heard anything about them or their families?

My point exactly. The pro-Israeli's b1tch and moan about Hezbollah not following U.N resolutions. So Israeli military action is warranted, whilst forgetting she is the biggest abuser of disregarding U.N resolutions.
Where are those soldiers I ask? Not a peep out of the pro-Isareli's, because even after all the destruction the IDF caused. They gained nothing. Another mega miscalculation by the Israeli fools. Hezbollah stronger than ever. A weakened pro-western Lebanese P.M. Iran entrenching her claws deeper into Lebanese internal affairs.
A waste of bloody time if you ask me. For the mess Israel caused. The price for those soldiers return will be high and it serves them right.

[Fullerov]

Rankor and Pissing wrote: Saracen wrote: I think it entrenched them further. Nothing strategic about it... I think it's good that Hizbullah could moderate itself to a political force.

Saracen - are you kidding? Moderate itself? Have you seen "Obsession" yet?

Saracen wrote: Its actions during the summer could no way be compared with that of the Israeli army. Hizbullah was defending Lebanon, but Israel was destroying it and invading it. Hezbollah isn't the Lebanese army or security force. Hezbollah is a terrorist organization. So you're saying a terrorist organization defended a sovereign state with the assistance of Iran, who finances that terrorist organization. And this is "moderate" in what sense and in comparison to what exactly?

Saracen wrote: This isn't to excuse Hizbullah, but I believe that they should disarm and join the Lebanese political and military institutions. You seem conflicted - first you way that Hezbollah is moderate and in no way as "bad" as Israel and even suggest that Hezbollah's actions are somehow "noble" in that they defended Lebanon from Israel, but then in the same breath, say Hezbollah should disarm.

Why would moderates need to disarm? Is it because they aren't really moderate?


I imagine only that it was a decision taken in order to temporarily disrupt Hezbollah.

This was never intended to be a 'Final Solution' as it were.

[Venom]

Quote: And yet you forget about the Lebanese and Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails
Prisoners, not hostages... not mere bargaining chips.

Quote: the land mines in southern Lebanon
Ok there are land mines in Souther Lebanon... why doesn't Hezbollah remove them all? For Israel to remove them they would have to re-enter Southern Lebanon....

Quote: Israeli jets that continue to intimidate the Lebanese
You mean Israel is intimidating Lebanon, the same country that has been told twice to get rid of Hezbollah, so apparently they aren't that intimidated if they won't get rid of the reason for Israel doing this.


Quote: That was actually after the I"D"F refused to listen to Hizbullah. Hizbullah was clearly provoked.
The IDF refused to listen to a terrorist group and thus provoked them? Ok so next time Hamas doesn't listen to the United States government the US is thus provoked into an attack on Palestine.
I've got to admit I've never been to Israel, but I'm sure the people of Palestine will find that our cruise missiles, bombs, tanks, troops are pretty well versed in Urban warfare.
Now I guess we just have to wait for Hamas to not listen to the US Government and here we come...
I wonder if Skippy will hook me up with that sweet looking utility vest I've seen the IDF wear...

Quote: The world does not revolve around Israel.
And yet everything in the ME appears to do so.


Plato
Quote: Where are those soldiers I ask? Not a peep out of the pro-Isareli's, because even after all the destruction the IDF caused. They gained nothing. Another mega miscalculation by the Israeli fools. Hezbollah stronger than ever. A weakened pro-western Lebanese P.M. Iran entrenching her claws deeper into Lebanese internal affairs.

Where are these soldiers? Who knows. I guess thats what you get by fighting a limited engagement where you greatly limit your scope of your battle. So again Israel is damned if they do damned if they don't.
What happened last time the IDF negotiated with Hezbollah? Didn't they kill them? Doesn't Hezbollah tortrue them?
So I assume the only other choice is to just ignore Hezbollah's actions, do nothing, turn a blind aid.... maybe even send millions of dollars of aid to Lebanon, so Hezbollah can take credit for that too.

Quote: The price for those soldiers return will be high and it serves them right.
Pretty much sums up your views... that Israel deserves to be punished for Hezbollah crossing the border to kill and kidnap soldiers to use them as simple poker chips. Very telling tale here.


Fullervo
Quote: I imagine only that it was a decision taken in order to temporarily disrupt Hezbollah.

This was never intended to be a 'Final Solution' as it were.
I agree and any that bothered to look at how limited in scope the invasion was would realize that they didn't send a push to annihiliate all of Hezbollah as they knew they were fighting against a greater enemy, a clock.

[slitedeviance]

Venom wrote: Quote: The price for those soldiers return will be high and it serves them right.
Pretty much sums up your views... that Israel deserves to be punished for Hezbollah crossing the border to kill and kidnap soldiers to use them as simple poker chips. Very telling tale here.

And this sums up yours:
Quote: I've got to admit I've never been to Israel, but I'm sure the people of Palestine will find that our cruise missiles, bombs, tanks, troops are pretty well versed in Urban warfare.
Now I guess we just have to wait for Hamas to not listen to the US Government and here we come...
I wonder if Skippy will hook me up with that sweet looking utility vest I've seen the IDF wear...

See, we're not even talking about Palestine yet somehow you turn it into a gung-ho, "ZOMG who can I stomp on over here?" type BS. Yeah, I'm sure the US military could quite easily handle Palestine. I'm sure they could just about manage Iran (though obviously sacrificing "stability" in Iraq and Afghanistan), I'm not too sure you could stomp on Pakistan or North Korea, you know why? Because Iran knows why.

Quote: Quote: I imagine only that it was a decision taken in order to temporarily disrupt Hezbollah.

This was never intended to be a 'Final Solution' as it were.
I agree and any that bothered to look at how limited in scope the invasion was would realize that they didn't send a push to annihiliate all of Hezbollah as they knew they were fighting against a greater enemy, a clock.

And why was the clock ticking??? Wait, that's it, because the international world was not too happy with standing back while Israel committed warcrimes.

[Venom]

Quote: And this sums up yours:

Nevermind that I was presenting a ficticious scenario based upon Saracen's logic.....
:LOL:
But please continue.....

Quote: See, we're not even talking about Palestine yet somehow you turn it into a gung-ho, "ZOMG who can I stomp on over here?" type BS. Yeah, I'm sure the US military could quite easily handle Palestine
Again I was merely stating that using Saracen's logic that the US would be validated if we attacked Palestine after Hamas didn't listen to us....
Also as for the US military being able to handle Palestine quite easily.... ya we could bomb them back to the stone age, but so could Israel. If we fought the wars "modern" wars are fought today it would be a "occupation" with an "insurgency" style war with the US being forced to await being shot at before engagement.

Quote: I'm sure they could just about manage Iran (though obviously sacrificing "stability" in Iraq and Afghanistan
Iran fall just like Iraq, they would fall into a guerilla war after losing their leadership much like Iraq (hence the reason that they have a suicide bomber bridgade already). They know they cannot compete in a conventional war. As for sacrificing stability, well that could but it could help. Why? It would pull some fighters out of Iraq to help in Iran, also it would help stop the flow of weapons/fighters to Iraq from Iran.

Quote: I'm not too sure you could stomp on Pakistan or North Korea, you know why? Because Iran knows why.
North Korea, the country of starving people, lack of electricity for the most part... The hardest part of that war if fought from a military perspective and not driven by politics, would be holding the initial rush across the DMZ from the N Koreans. After that they are very aware that our counter battery and air power could destroy their tracked weapons thus reducing them to guerrilla style warfare.

Quote: And why was the clock ticking??? Wait, that's it, because the international world was not too happy with standing back while Israel committed warcrimes.
The clock as ticking because the "international world" would rather turn a blind eye and accept Islamic extremists than do something.
What war crimes did Israel commit during the invasion of Lebanon?
Apparently the world isn't too concerned with war crimes as they felt it was evidently wrong to remove Saddam and sat by over a decade as he tortured and massacred people. So it appears that even if Israel were committing war crimes, the world wouldn't be too concerned.
Another example.. look at the speed in which the international community has sped to stop the genocide in Darfur... should I start the stop clock? Wait is anyone at the starting line for this one? Hrmmmm

[Saracen]

Rankor and Pissing wrote: Saracen - are you kidding? Moderate itself? Have you seen "Obsession" yet?

Nah, and I don't plan to.

Quote: Hezbollah isn't the Lebanese army or security force. Hezbollah is a terrorist organization. So you're saying a terrorist organization defended a sovereign state with the assistance of Iran, who finances that terrorist organization. And this is "moderate" in what sense and in comparison to what exactly?

Israel killed 10 times more civilians than the Lebanese Hizbullah group did. From a neutral perspective, one could see that the rain of destruction that Israel rained on Lebanon was because of Israel, not Hizbullah.

Quote: You seem conflicted - first you way that Hezbollah is moderate and in no way as "bad" as Israel and even suggest that Hezbollah's actions are somehow "noble" in that they defended Lebanon from Israel, but then in the same breath, say Hezbollah should disarm.

Why would moderates need to disarm? Is it because they aren't really moderate?

No, because they have a militia. I didn't absolve Hizbullah from responsibility, but in order to gain a more positive influence on the international stage, I think they should enter politics and voice out the true demands of the Lebanese people.

Venom wrote: Prisoners, not hostages... not mere bargaining chips.

Better a hostage than a prisoner who might have been taken into false account.

Quote: Ok there are land mines in Souther Lebanon... why doesn't Hezbollah remove them all? For Israel to remove them they would have to re-enter Southern Lebanon....

...or provide maps.

Quote: The IDF refused to listen to a terrorist group and thus provoked them? Ok so next time Hamas doesn't listen to the United States government the US is thus provoked into an attack on Palestine.
I've got to admit I've never been to Israel, but I'm sure the people of Palestine will find that our cruise missiles, bombs, tanks, troops are pretty well versed in Urban warfare.
Now I guess we just have to wait for Hamas to not listen to the US Government and here we come...
I wonder if Skippy will hook me up with that sweet looking utility vest I've seen the IDF wear...

Land mines have killed many people in the past, before this. Hizbullah retaliated to this issue.

Quote: And yet everything in the ME appears to do so.

Because the U.S. gov't. wants it to be like that. Sorry, but Israel is not morally superior and does not dictate the rules.

[Venom]

Quote: Israel killed 10 times more civilians than the Lebanese Hizbullah group did. From a neutral perspective, one could see that the rain of destruction that Israel rained on Lebanon was because of Israel, not Hizbullah.
Of course if the IDF used a wall of women and children as bullet catchers like Hezbollah and other groups fighting the IDF, these numbers might just even out.....
nevermind that though.
So this isn't a real neutral perspective... If looking blindly at numbers then sure.. but also looking at these blind numbers would show the IDF invasion of Lebanon was started by Hezbollah since they did attack 1st....

Quote: No, because they have a militia. I didn't absolve Hizbullah from responsibility, but in order to gain a more positive influence on the international stage, I think they should enter politics and voice out the true demands of the Lebanese people.
They have entered politcs and voice their true demands... the death of Israel... hence the need for the guns an stuff.. :lol:

Quote: Better a hostage than a prisoner who might have been taken into false account.
Ya sure that makes sense. I guess the same goes for prisons because there is of course going to be some people that really are innocent. Instead of arresting criminals lets just take random hostages.

Quote: or provide maps.
No. That makes a lot of sense.. so Hezbollah gets to go dig up the mines and use them against Israel. If you wanted them to be rid of you'd have to let Israel dispose of them, not give Hezbollah more ammunition.


Quote: Land mines have killed many people in the past, before this. Hizbullah retaliated to this issue.
Ah ok... nevermind that the IDF isn't allowed in to get rid of the mines.
So if you want to use your very logic, then why are you against IDF action inside of Palestine? Terrorism from Palestine has killed many people in the past... so lets let Israel off the leesh.


Quote: Because the U.S. gov't. wants it to be like that. Sorry, but Israel is not morally superior and does not dictate the rules
The US gov wants the ME countries to center on Israel? Of course it's the West fault again!!! I should have known...
but seriously... if I recall the US doesn't like Iran and others threatening Israel, doesn't like these Arab nations who have a history of attempting to destroy Israel doing this....
I'd like to again side with Israel being morally superior.