Political Crossfire Forums

[The Comrade]

agentkgb wrote:
There's a reason they call it "illegal." If the bands didn't care it wouldn't be illegal.



bands can easily put piracy blockers on their CDs. if they didn't want people to download their music illegaly they would use those CDs rather then ones without.

[agentkgb]

So... bands support the free downloading of music because it makes them more money?
If a band really doesn't care then neither do I but I would imagine that many do.

[The Comrade]

agentkgb wrote: So... bands support the free downloading of music because it makes them more money?
If a band really doesn't care then neither do I but I would imagine that many do.


exactly. you imagine many do. when in reality if they did infact care they would put piracy blockers on their CDs. so far i've bought exactly one CD that has had a piracy blocker.

[The Grandmaster]

tman_ndsu08 wrote: Lets say that I write a computer program that will create .txt file.
This file will be a text document.
The the characters of the document will be nothing but 0's and 1's. Each character is what is known as a "bit".
Typically, 8 bits make up a "byte". A byte is the "B" in such phrases as 100 GB hard drive. That would be 100 billion bytes.

A typical 12 cm, single side, dual layer DVD has a capacity of 8.5 GB or 68 Gbits. That's 68 billion bits.

My document will have 68 billion characters where each character is either a 0 or a 1.

The program will loop through until every possible combination of a 0 or 1 for 68 billion characters has been outputted.

For the sake of argument, I'm going to assume infinite resources and computing power such that this task could be accomplished in a reasonable amount of time.

I have now reproduced every single possible movie that has ever been made or can ever be made, so long as it fits on a 12 cm, single side, dual layer DVD (which most standard definition movies do with room to spare for extras).

I've done it without stealing or even borrowing in any possible sense.

In fact, I not only now have every movie...I have every song, every book, every TV show, every recipe, .... every anything that our society has ever considered "intellectual property", so long as it fits in the 8.5 GB of virtual storage space.

What I just did was prove that intellectual property is impossible.

It's a fallacy that is enforced by authorities to ensure that rich people stay rich.

I like this.

[agentkgb]

The Comrade wrote: agentkgb wrote: So... bands support the free downloading of music because it makes them more money?
If a band really doesn't care then neither do I but I would imagine that many do.


exactly. you imagine many do. when in reality if they did infact care they would put piracy blockers on their CDs. so far i've bought exactly one CD that has had a piracy blocker.
This is getting kind of ridiculous it seems but long story short if the band cares I'm against it and it's illegal, if the band doesn't care then I don't care and it wouldn't be illegal anyway I don't think so it's not what I was arguing in the first place.

[perdidochas]

The Comrade wrote: if i didn't download music i wouldn't be able to listen to about 95% of the bands i like. i essentially advertise for bands when i download their music and spread it through word of mouth. i'm actually helping them rather then hurting them.

But it should be their choice that you are their marketing rep, not yours.

[perdidochas]

Babylon_Horuv wrote: perdidochas wrote: Babylon_Horuv wrote: I hold that morally it is not stealing, Especcially when the copyright is held by a corporation rather than an individual.
Hmm, so then you distinguish between corporate held property and individual held property? Then do you think it's less of a crime to shoplift from Sears than from Joe's Sock shop (Joe, sole proprietor)


Certainly, shoplifting from Joe is a crime, shoplifting from a corporate store is not. I don't do it because it is not worth the risk, but I don't condemn those who do.

Quote:

Question: Do you have or do you aspire to copyrighting original material that you've created? I will admit, before I started considering a career in producing educational software, I was pretty cavalier about the idea. It changes your opinion a lot, when it is your bread and butter being taken away.


Actually, my wife makes movies, and is going to get filthy rich off of it. I am still not worried about it, even if a lot of copies of her film are pirated, she'll still be doing well

Quote:
Babylon_Horuv wrote: However legally it is still stealing, and you had better be careful about it while the government is around to enforce arbitrary property rights. To put my position in context, I also hold that workers taking over a factory is not stealing either, as they are the ones who use and maintain the factory it is theirs and the arbitrary deed held by some owner who only extracts profit is even more abstract than the "intellectual property rights" of some record company.

Hmm, so if I own a factory, the workers can just steal it from me, despite the fact that I pay them nicely, and that I began the business from scratch, risking my life savings to put up as capital, and I myself spend 12 hrs a day (longer than any of my workers) assuring that everything is working properly?

Man, you are warped.

If you own the factory and work the factory that is different. Besides which if you are paying the workers well and treating them well there really is no reason for them to take over, as they are better off letting you do that work. If you just own the factory and have others work it without you working it however it is not really yours.

Your view is so strange to my thinking, that I can't even contemplate a proper response.

[Babylon_Horuv]

antonio62 wrote: agentkgb wrote: The Comrade wrote: agentkgb wrote: The Comrade wrote: if i didn't download music i wouldn't be able to listen to about 95% of the bands i like. i essentially advertise for bands when i download their music and spread it through word of mouth. i'm actually helping them rather then hurting them.
:? Unless the people you tell about them download it illegally also.

and then they tell other people. and so on and so forth and the word spreads. if people like them, they'll probably buy the CD and go to their shows or concerts.
Your downloading and telling people probably doesn't help them as much as it would if you bought their CD. Also, a number of other people who hear about it through you probably would download it illegally also.

Some would. Some would download it and then buy thre CD after liking it. Some would buy it straightaway. Some would listen to them in some way and buy the bands merchandise or go to their shows. In the end small bands benifit from downloading. Only major labels don't benifit. It would be a good thing for culture if all the major labels went bust.

There is an important point here. mp3's are low quality compared to CD's. Many people will listen to an mp3 of music and then proceed to buy the music.

[Babylon_Horuv]

The Grandmaster wrote: agentkgb wrote: The Comrade wrote: agentkgb wrote:
Your downloading and telling people probably doesn't help them as much as it would if you bought their CD. Also, a number of other people who hear about it through you probably would download it illegally also.
their CDs can only be ordered over the internet. this is completely invconveinent and some people don't have credit cards(especially teenagers). how, pray tell, will they listen to that bands music without downloading?
Napster lets you buy cards at stores and download it without stealing.


Napster is a peice of s**t, plain and simple. They were cool back in the early days. After they became a pay service, they became worthless F**K**. I bought and paid for about 40 songs from them. I figured, "hey, why not give buying music a try." Soon after, none of my goddamn songs worked. Now, they still don't. Always serching for some stupid ass liscense s**t or something. You can't take the songs to another computer, you can't format your computer, and you always have to install Napster with all of it's spyware and extra garbage to run them. Another corperation screwing you. So hey, I learned my lesson. I went back to taking the music, just like before.

If you are going to pay for music I-tunes is the way to go.

[Babylon_Horuv]

tman_ndsu08 wrote: I think the internet will allow bands to eventually ditch the labels and go independent.


The only thing that should matter to a band is that as many people as possible get to hear their recorded work.


Then, when they come to town on tour, they'll sell lots of tickets to their shows.



That's how bands do/should make their money. Live shows.


It isn't/should not be by selling recorded work.

As an artist who cannot perform live I have to disagree. My work consists of samples and synthetic lines layered together, can't be performed live at all.

[MplsBison]

Babylon_Horuv wrote:

My work consists of samples and synthetic lines layered together, can't be performed live at all.

That's a shame.


However, you don't own pressure waves any more than you own light.


Just because you string together pressure waves of different frequencies that you think make an interesting combination doesn't give you the right to sell them to anyone any more than you have the right to sell combinations of red, blue, and green light to anyone.


If someone wants to pay for a ticket to come to a venue where you display interesting combinations of light for them, that's their own business.

[antonio62]

agentkgb wrote: So... bands support the free downloading of music because it makes them more money?
If a band really doesn't care then neither do I but I would imagine that many do.

Most bands don't care because they will never make any money of any ofthe CDs they make. They ma make some money of tickets for concerts (although for most it is unlikely) or merchandise (mainly because a lot of it thye sell direct so take the cut the shop would normally take). Only big bands and big labels don't like downloading.

[The Comrade]

perdidochas wrote:
But it should be their choice that you are their marketing rep, not yours.



so i shoudln't be allowed to tell people about the band?


because that's what you're saying.

[perdidochas]

The Comrade wrote: perdidochas wrote:
But it should be their choice that you are their marketing rep, not yours.



so i shoudln't be allowed to tell people about the band?


because that's what you're saying.
No, I'm saying that the distribution of samples of their music for free as a marketing ploy, should be their decision, not yours.

[MplsBison]

Quick show of hands:

can a person (or entity) own sounds?

Ex, can I buy the rights to 18 KHz?

[The Comrade]

perdidochas wrote:
No, I'm saying that the distribution of samples of their music for free as a marketing ploy, should be their decision, not yours.

who said i distribute samples of their music?

all i do is tell people about it.

[EugenicHegemony]

tman_ndsu08 wrote: I think the internet will allow bands to eventually ditch the labels and go independent.


The only thing that should matter to a band is that as many people as possible get to hear their recorded work.


Then, when they come to town on tour, they'll sell lots of tickets to their shows.

That's how bands do/should make their money. Live shows.


It isn't/should not be by selling recorded work. Exactly. That's all they're entitled to anyway.

[Protostar]

Downloading music/movies/software is not stealing, because when you steal something it implies a loss for someone else without them gaining anything/or their permission. If you steal a pencil from someone, you have taken something without their permission and it is a net loss for them. Sharing movies/music/software online is different. Somone already bought the album/movie you are downloading, you are simply making a copy of theirs. It would be akin to you making an exact replica of aforementioned person's pencil, instead of taking it without their permission. Also I would like to take Gus's classic argument and apply it here (if he hasn't already): how do you "steal" an idea? Is there a lock box where people keep their ideas? People don't "steal" ideas, they simply copy them, and alot of times improve upon them in such ways that it benefits us all.

[Protostar]

The Grandmaster wrote: agentkgb wrote: The Comrade wrote: agentkgb wrote:
Your downloading and telling people probably doesn't help them as much as it would if you bought their CD. Also, a number of other people who hear about it through you probably would download it illegally also.
their CDs can only be ordered over the internet. this is completely invconveinent and some people don't have credit cards(especially teenagers). how, pray tell, will they listen to that bands music without downloading?
Napster lets you buy cards at stores and download it without stealing.


Napster is a peice of s**t, plain and simple. They were cool back in the early days. After they became a pay service, they became worthless F**K**. I bought and paid for about 40 songs from them. I figured, "hey, why not give buying music a try." Soon after, none of my goddamn songs worked. Now, they still don't. Always serching for some stupid ass liscense s**t or something. You can't take the songs to another computer, you can't format your computer, and you always have to install Napster with all of it's spyware and extra garbage to run them. Another corperation screwing you. So hey, I learned my lesson. I went back to taking the music, just like before.

Real world example right here folks; DRM is evil and must be avoided at all costs. I've never paid for any of the music I have, and I'm damn proud of it. Bittorrent/Gnutella FTW!!! :tu:

[The Newb]

30 gigs of music and growing!