Political Crossfire Forums

EugenicHegemony · Joined: 28 Jul 2005 Posts: 4658

First of all, that FBI warning that you're forced to watch before a DVD movie is a bunch of crap, and no one here needs to listen to it. The U.S. government is lieing to you when they say "it's stealing".

Secondly, downloading music or movies or anything that's in the market place, is not, I repeat, is not stealing, and never will be. Anyone who tells you it is, is an idiot.

In order to steal something: You must deprive someone of the original. Like stealing an actual object that does not belong to you. The original owner no longer has the use of that original object.

Music/Movies/Games don't, and never will fall into that category, because you're not permanently depriving anyone of anything.

perdidochas · Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 15424 Location: Florida

EugenicHegemony wrote: First of all, that FBI warning that you're forced to watch before a DVD movie is a bunch of crap, and no one here needs to listen to it. The U.S. government is lieing to you when they say "it's stealing".

Secondly, downloading music or movies or anything that's in the market place, is not, I repeat, is not stealing, and never will be. Anyone who tells you it is, is an idiot.

In order to steal something: You must deprive someone of the original. Like stealing an actual object that does not belong to you. The original owner no longer has the use of that original object.

Music/Movies/Games don't, and never will fall into that category, because you're not permanently depriving anyone of anything.

Well, regardless of the semantics, it is wrong. Maybe theft isn't the correct word for it, but it is taking away intellectual property rights away from somebody.

Also, the idea of copyright is esconced in the Constitution:

Article I: Section 8: To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries;

Also,you are depriving the authors of their rightful income that they are guaranteed by the Constitution. While not theft, it is the breaking of a law.

agentkgb · Joined: 23 Aug 2006 Posts: 2241 Location: US

perdidochas wrote: Well, regardless of the semantics, it is wrong. Maybe theft isn't the correct word for it, but it is taking away intellectual property rights away from somebody.
Agreed. It's not physical taking of something, but it is wrong and something is lost.

Green · Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 12:32 pm Post subject: Re: Downloading music/movies.

perdidochas wrote: Also,you are depriving the authors of their rightful income that they are guaranteed by the Constitution.

Give me an example of a singer who has gone broke because of Piracy.

Babylon_Horuv · Joined: 15 Jun 2006 Posts: 2087

I hold that morally it is not stealing, Especcially when the copyright is held by a corporation rather than an individual. However legally it is still stealing, and you had better be careful about it while the government is around to enforce arbitrary property rights. To put my position in context, I also hold that workers taking over a factory is not stealing either, as they are the ones who use and maintain the factory it is theirs and the arbitrary deed held by some owner who only extracts profit is even more abstract than the "intellectual property rights" of some record company.

VBach37 · Joined: 27 Aug 2004 Posts: 1987 Location: New Hampshire

Great! So, the next time you do a job for somebody, you wonn't ask that they pay you for you services, correct?

Babylon_Horuv · Joined: 15 Jun 2006 Posts: 2087

VBach37 wrote: Great! So, the next time you do a job for somebody, you wonn't ask that they pay you for you services, correct?

Sure I will, however I won't ask them to pay me every time they benefit from those services.

perdidochas · Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 15424 Location: Florida

Babylon_Horuv wrote: I hold that morally it is not stealing, Especcially when the copyright is held by a corporation rather than an individual.
Hmm, so then you distinguish between corporate held property and individual held property? Then do you think it's less of a crime to shoplift from Sears than from Joe's Sock shop (Joe, sole proprietor)

Question: Do you have or do you aspire to copyrighting original material that you've created? I will admit, before I started considering a career in producing educational software, I was pretty cavalier about the idea. It changes your opinion a lot, when it is your bread and butter being taken away.

Babylon_Horuv wrote: However legally it is still stealing, and you had better be careful about it while the government is around to enforce arbitrary property rights. To put my position in context, I also hold that workers taking over a factory is not stealing either, as they are the ones who use and maintain the factory it is theirs and the arbitrary deed held by some owner who only extracts profit is even more abstract than the "intellectual property rights" of some record company.

Hmm, so if I own a factory, the workers can just steal it from me, despite the fact that I pay them nicely, and that I began the business from scratch, risking my life savings to put up as capital, and I myself spend 12 hrs a day (longer than any of my workers) assuring that everything is working properly?

Man, you are warped.

perdidochas · Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 15424 Location: Florida

Babylon_Horuv wrote: VBach37 wrote: Great! So, the next time you do a job for somebody, you wonn't ask that they pay you for you services, correct?

Sure I will, however I won't ask them to pay me every time they benefit from those services.

Actually, to make the analogy more apt, you ask for money every time, but it is up to them whether or not to pay for your services. Again, it's not your option, but the one who uses the services to decide whether or not they pay for them.

Wolverine · Joined: 15 Jul 2005 Posts: 11047 Location: Podunk, Colorado

The license agreement that you agree to when you purchase the product says your license is limited to that one particular copy. If you copy it, you violate the agreement, and commit piracy.

So yeah, its stealing.

Passage · Joined: 03 Nov 2006 Posts: 57 Location: USA

Green wrote: perdidochas wrote: Also,you are depriving the authors of their rightful income that they are guaranteed by the Constitution.

Give me an example of a singer who has gone broke because of Piracy.

James Hetfield from Metallica wanted a golden fondue fountain. Because you downloaded his music he has to settle for a SILVER ONE. You heartless bastard.

Superfly · Joined: 07 Apr 2006 Posts: 5243 Location: Tornado Alley

Passage wrote: Green wrote: perdidochas wrote: Also,you are depriving the authors of their rightful income that they are guaranteed by the Constitution.

Give me an example of a singer who has gone broke because of Piracy.

James Hetfield from Metallica wanted a golden fondue fountain. Because you downloaded his music he has to settle for a SILVER ONE. You heartless bastard.

:rotf:

Demonic Spoon · Joined: 20 Sep 2004 Posts: 6955 Location: Ohio

Quote: The license agreement that you agree to when you purchase the product says your license is limited to that one particular copy. If you copy it, you violate the agreement, and commit piracy.

So yeah, its stealing.

Wolverine wins at the internet.

Morally, though, I have nothing against stealing most forms of music. Games and movies I do, but record companies, in my experiences, are greedy bastards. It does not cost them anywhere near $15 to record the CD, and ship it to stores. They blow a lot of the money on buying the rights to a single artist, which is, once again, greed.

However, I would have no issues if it were made impossible to pirate stuff, nor would I be pissed if those who do pirate stuff gets pirated.

ieatfood · Joined: 28 Mar 2005 Posts: 6505

EugenicHegemony wrote: First of all, that FBI warning that you're forced to watch before a DVD movie is a bunch of crap, and no one here needs to listen to it. The U.S. government is lieing to you when they say "it's stealing".

Secondly, downloading music or movies or anything that's in the market place, is not, I repeat, is not stealing, and never will be. Anyone who tells you it is, is an idiot.

In order to steal something: You must deprive someone of the original. Like stealing an actual object that does not belong to you. The original owner no longer has the use of that original object.

Music/Movies/Games don't, and never will fall into that category, because you're not permanently depriving anyone of anything.

are you saying that patent laws are meaningless and should be abolished?

The Comrade · Joined: 16 Jul 2006 Posts: 12039 Location: Zagreb

if i didn't download music i wouldn't be able to listen to about 95% of the bands i like. i essentially advertise for bands when i download their music and spread it through word of mouth. i'm actually helping them rather then hurting them.

Babylon_Horuv · Joined: 15 Jun 2006 Posts: 2087

perdidochas wrote: Babylon_Horuv wrote: I hold that morally it is not stealing, Especcially when the copyright is held by a corporation rather than an individual.
Hmm, so then you distinguish between corporate held property and individual held property? Then do you think it's less of a crime to shoplift from Sears than from Joe's Sock shop (Joe, sole proprietor)

Certainly, shoplifting from Joe is a crime, shoplifting from a corporate store is not. I don't do it because it is not worth the risk, but I don't condemn those who do.

Quote:

Question: Do you have or do you aspire to copyrighting original material that you've created? I will admit, before I started considering a career in producing educational software, I was pretty cavalier about the idea. It changes your opinion a lot, when it is your bread and butter being taken away.

Actually, my wife makes movies, and is going to get filthy rich off of it. I am still not worried about it, even if a lot of copies of her film are pirated, she'll still be doing well

Quote:
Babylon_Horuv wrote: However legally it is still stealing, and you had better be careful about it while the government is around to enforce arbitrary property rights. To put my position in context, I also hold that workers taking over a factory is not stealing either, as they are the ones who use and maintain the factory it is theirs and the arbitrary deed held by some owner who only extracts profit is even more abstract than the "intellectual property rights" of some record company.

Hmm, so if I own a factory, the workers can just steal it from me, despite the fact that I pay them nicely, and that I began the business from scratch, risking my life savings to put up as capital, and I myself spend 12 hrs a day (longer than any of my workers) assuring that everything is working properly?

Man, you are warped.

If you own the factory and work the factory that is different. Besides which if you are paying the workers well and treating them well there really is no reason for them to take over, as they are better off letting you do that work. If you just own the factory and have others work it without you working it however it is not really yours.

Babylon_Horuv · Joined: 15 Jun 2006 Posts: 2087

perdidochas wrote: Babylon_Horuv wrote: VBach37 wrote: Great! So, the next time you do a job for somebody, you wonn't ask that they pay you for you services, correct?

Sure I will, however I won't ask them to pay me every time they benefit from those services.

Actually, to make the analogy more apt, you ask for money every time, but it is up to them whether or not to pay for your services. Again, it's not your option, but the one who uses the services to decide whether or not they pay for them.

The difference is that it takes effort for me to perform that service, it does not take me effort to have someone else copy a song I have created and give it away (and I do create music which I don't mind people copying)

agentkgb · Joined: 23 Aug 2006 Posts: 2241 Location: US

The Comrade wrote: if i didn't download music i wouldn't be able to listen to about 95% of the bands i like. i essentially advertise for bands when i download their music and spread it through word of mouth. i'm actually helping them rather then hurting them.
:? Unless the people you tell about them download it illegally also.

The Comrade · Joined: 16 Jul 2006 Posts: 12039 Location: Zagreb

agentkgb wrote: The Comrade wrote: if i didn't download music i wouldn't be able to listen to about 95% of the bands i like. i essentially advertise for bands when i download their music and spread it through word of mouth. i'm actually helping them rather then hurting them.
:? Unless the people you tell about them download it illegally also.

and then they tell other people. and so on and so forth and the word spreads. if people like them, they'll probably buy the CD and go to their shows or concerts.

agentkgb · Joined: 23 Aug 2006 Posts: 2241 Location: US

The Comrade wrote: agentkgb wrote: The Comrade wrote: if i didn't download music i wouldn't be able to listen to about 95% of the bands i like. i essentially advertise for bands when i download their music and spread it through word of mouth. i'm actually helping them rather then hurting them.
:? Unless the people you tell about them download it illegally also.

and then they tell other people. and so on and so forth and the word spreads. if people like them, they'll probably buy the CD and go to their shows or concerts.
Your downloading and telling people probably doesn't help them as much as it would if you bought their CD. Also, a number of other people who hear about it through you probably would download it illegally also.