Political Crossfire Forums

[Norrin Radd]

A few interesting quotes on education.......

Education ... has produced a vast population able to read but unable to distinguish what is worth reading. - G. M. Trevelyan

I have never let my schooling interfere with my education. - Mark Twain

I never teach my pupils; I only attempt to provide the conditions in which they can learn. - Albert Einstein

I remember that I was never able to get along at school. I was always at the foot of the class. - Thomas Edison

It is nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction havenot yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry; for this delicatelittle plant, aside from stimulation, stands mainly in need of freedom;without this it goes to wrack and ruin without fail. - Albert Einstein

Knowledge which is acquired under compulsion has no hold on the mind. Therefore do not use compulsion, but let early education be rather a sort of amusement; this will better enable you to find out the natural bent of the child. - Plato

Real education must ultimately be limited to men who insist on knowing. The rest is mere sheep herding. - Ezra Loomis Pound



School days are the unhappiest in the whole span if human existence. They are full of dull, unintelligible tasks, new and unpleasant ordinances, with brutal violations of common sense and common decency. - H. L. Mencken

We are faced with the paradoxical fact that education has become one of the chief obstacles to intelligence and freedom of thought. - Bertrand Russell

///////

Just a few quotes.

Now, what groups control education policy at the national level?

I had that info somewhere, what groups were they again?

Who sets education policy at the national level? Can someone help me out?

(hint, it's not the NEA)

[Snake]

Medius wrote: Kamel wrote:
Quote: 1.Abolition of Property in Land and Application of all Rents of Land to Public Purpose. I still own a house, it's in my name, it's my property, it belongs to me, as well as all of my other possessions


I'll agree that "abolition" would be a strong word to describe the current state of property ownership, however, I wouldn't say you really own it. You are charged rent for property (property tax) there are severe restrictions oftentimes on how you can use it (zoning). You have requirements to fulfill by owning it (local ordinances). The state can take it for many reasons, including failure to pay taxes and questionable public use. It can be declared a historical site, taking nearly all your property rights away. It can be declared a wildlife preserve, same as above...

Kamel wrote:
Quote: 3.Abolition of All Rights of Inheritance. ??? Nope, I can still inherit stuff from dead relatives...


Again with the abolition being a strong word. The estate tax would be a precursor to this however, as well as income tax. Inheritances often take a serious hit.

Kamel wrote:
Quote: 7. Extension of Factories and Instruments of Production Owned by the State, the Bringing Into Cultivation of Waste Lands, and the Improvement of the Soil Generally in Accordance with a Common Plan. I haven't got a clue what this one means, do I get a hint?


Basically, it is the governmental expansion into state owned production. There are small nibbles into this with subsidizing. The cultivation of waste lands and improvement of the soil could be linked closely with actions by the EPA and also the taking of land for the preservation of wildlife (or trees or marshes or whatever "needs" to be saved).

Kamel wrote:
Quote: 8.Equal Liability of All to Labor. Establishment of Industrial Armies, Especially for Agriculture. How does this apply to the hobos? They don't have liability to labor...


Hobos don't have to labor because they don't own anything. Owning a car or land brings a person to taxation which in turn forces them to labor. You cannot live in this country without a job, even if you own land and could grow enough food to survive, you would be required to give back to the state, which requires some manner of income. Hobos would be the "rebels" which would be automatically dispossesed of all things in their possession and most likely rounded up and put to labor forcibly. This, of course, has not happened.

Kamel wrote:
So, are you saying that after killing commies for the good of the nation, we actually are communists?

I wouldn't say that we are communists, but I would say we are getting pretty damn close. The dissolution of state powers set us down this road. The state level government has more power to invade your life than the federal (as far as the constitution is concerned) however there are fundamental rights that protect a citizen such as the ability to travel freely between the states. So if a state started down the road of communism, you could leave and find one that better suits your choice of government.

With the federal expansions and the uniform laws that have begun to form across all states, you pretty much begin to lose your right to self governance and are at the will of the majority.

Big government is bad. Ok, so basically it means that if you own you owe. I think I get it now. Secret tax exempt underground bunker, here I come!!!

[Snake]

yanniv wrote: I'm glad I am not the only one who thinks this country is turning into a totalitarian state. Ok, but what are you going to do about it? We can all b*tch and complain untill we die of old age, but it won't do or change anything.

[JohnnyQ]

Kamel wrote: yanniv wrote: I'm glad I am not the only one who thinks this country is turning into a totalitarian state. Ok, but what are you going to do about it? We can all b*tch and complain untill we die of old age, but it won't do or change anything.

I've been informing people for awhile now.

Everyone has to be willing to step up to this and take responsibility.

[Norrin Radd]

yanniv wrote: Kamel wrote: yanniv wrote: I'm glad I am not the only one who thinks this country is turning into a totalitarian state. Ok, but what are you going to do about it? We can all b*tch and complain untill we die of old age, but it won't do or change anything.

I've been informing people for awhile now.

Everyone has to be willing to step up to this and take responsibility.

Just wanted you to know I am unable to send private messages. I believe the site has not turned them back on for me after my suspension.

I guess I need to stop calling people bootlicking, government stooges.

lol

Anyways, as to your questions, I suggest doing some reading on the history of banking, the history of foundations, especially the Carnegie, Ford and Rockefeller foundation, as well as research the history of the CFR and the Trilateral Commission.

Some links to help you in your research can be found here.....

http://www.politicalcrossfire.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=49719&highlight=resources+sequel

[Norrin Radd]

Kamel wrote: yanniv wrote: I'm glad I am not the only one who thinks this country is turning into a totalitarian state. Ok, but what are you going to do about it? We can all b*tch and complain untill we die of old age, but it won't do or change anything.

Nothing is "likely" to change until the American people are ready to admit that both parties have sold out the American people. Until that happens, the masses will continue to argue over which party is more evil than the other.

[JohnnyQ]

Norrin Radd wrote: yanniv wrote: Kamel wrote: yanniv wrote: I'm glad I am not the only one who thinks this country is turning into a totalitarian state. Ok, but what are you going to do about it? We can all b*tch and complain untill we die of old age, but it won't do or change anything.

I've been informing people for awhile now.

Everyone has to be willing to step up to this and take responsibility.

Just wanted you to know I am unable to send private messages. I believe the site has not turned them back on for me after my suspension.

I guess I need to stop calling people bootlicking, government stooges.

lol

Anyways, as to your questions, I suggest doing some reading on the history of banking, the history of foundations, especially the Carnegie, Ford and Rockefeller foundation, as well as research the history of the CFR and the Trilateral Commission.

Some links to help you in your research can be found here.....

http://www.politicalcrossfire.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=49719&highlight=resources+sequel

Thanks bro.

[Paladin]

So the masses are being controlled and corraled into communism...

Curses. Vote in the libertarians? Upper Middle class revolt? At least, if you can start predicting social change you can predict economics!

I seriously doubt an elitist conspiracy, though. So much conflict and disagreement. So are we evolving into communism?

[Norrin Radd]

Paladin wrote: So the masses are being controlled and corraled into communism...

Curses. Vote in the libertarians? Upper Middle class revolt? At least, if you can start predicting social change you can predict economics!

I seriously doubt an elitist conspiracy, though. So much conflict and disagreement. So are we evolving into communism?

You seriously doubt an elitist conspiracy, but have you ever looked?

We have had numerous well respected people try to warn us about an elitist conspiracy, do you know who they were?

If you can't name the well respected people who have tried to warn us, then your opinion is worthless.

[Todd D.]

Quote: I'll agree that "abolition" would be a strong word to describe the current state of property ownership, however, I wouldn't say you really own it. You are charged rent for property (property tax) there are severe restrictions oftentimes on how you can use it (zoning). You have requirements to fulfill by owning it (local ordinances). The state can take it for many reasons, including failure to pay taxes and questionable public use. It can be declared a historical site, taking nearly all your property rights away. It can be declared a wildlife preserve, same as above...
Taxation is not the same as rent. Not even a little bit. At all. Property taxes are a function of land appreciating in wealth, aka income. That has always been taxed, and while I disagree with it, calling it "rent" is like saying that I "rent" my car because I owe interest on the loan I took out to purchase it.

With regards to the restrictions, all that you mention are not so much a function of your own land, but exterior land. You can't put a nuclear reactor in your basement not because you don't own your land, but because that affects those that live near you, whose land you DO NOT own. Big difference there.

Quote: Again with the abolition being a strong word. The estate tax would be a precursor to this however, as well as income tax. Inheritances often take a serious hit.
The estate tax is only for estates > $2,000,000, and was abolished (or at least suspended) in 2001. Inheritances do take a serious hit, they are after all considered to be income, but as you said, they are nowhere close to "abolished".

Quote: Basically, it is the governmental expansion into state owned production. There are small nibbles into this with subsidizing. The cultivation of waste lands and improvement of the soil could be linked closely with actions by the EPA and also the taking of land for the preservation of wildlife (or trees or marshes or whatever "needs" to be saved).
True, but more often than not this takes place on what was already public property, not invoking eminent domain to sieze a swamp for its cultivation or improvement.

Quote: Hobos don't have to labor because they don't own anything. Owning a car or land brings a person to taxation which in turn forces them to labor. You cannot live in this country without a job, even if you own land and could grow enough food to survive, you would be required to give back to the state, which requires some manner of income. Hobos would be the "rebels" which would be automatically dispossesed of all things in their possession and most likely rounded up and put to labor forcibly. This, of course, has not happened.
As was stated, you own on income. Even property taxes operate under the assumption that your land becomes more valuable as the years go on, which in turn is taxed. You could absolutely live off that land wthout ever having a 9-5 job, doing nothing more than renting that land to someone else for their own use. Taxes are never greater than 100%, and in this country are marginal, which means that you can never be worse off for earning more money.

Others that were not responded to.
Quote: 2. A Heavy Progressive or Graduated Income Tax.
We have a marginal progressive income tax, but it's certainly not "heavy". Marx specifically refers to rates approaching 90-100% in the Manifesto. In the US, the highest Income Tax rate is 35%. That's not "heavy" in any way, and again it is marginal, meaning that only the income IN ADDITION to what has already been earned is taxed on that higher level.

Quote: 5.Centralization of Credit in the Hands of the State, by Means of a National Bank with State Capital and an Exclusive Monopoly.
The federal reserve system is complicated, but this simply isn't true. Credit is not monopolized by the state, despite the forthcoming explaination from Psholtz or Norrin about how it is.

Quote: 6.Centralization of the Means of Communication and Transport in the Hands of the State.
Hasn't existed since the dawn of the internet. While I suppose you could argue that the internet is connected either through a cable line or a phone line, which is owned by private contractors granted natural monopolies by the state in a bidding war, to suggest that is what Marx was referring to would be absolute lunacy.

It's undoubtable that our welfare state is growing, and is far bigger than it was 150 years ago. However, to suggest that we are Communist, or even that many of these things were born out of the Communist Manifesto, is A) historically ignorant, an B) grossly misinformed.

[Norrin Radd]

Todd D. wrote: Quote: I'll agree that "abolition" would be a strong word to describe the current state of property ownership, however, I wouldn't say you really own it. You are charged rent for property (property tax) there are severe restrictions oftentimes on how you can use it (zoning). You have requirements to fulfill by owning it (local ordinances). The state can take it for many reasons, including failure to pay taxes and questionable public use. It can be declared a historical site, taking nearly all your property rights away. It can be declared a wildlife preserve, same as above...
Taxation is not the same as rent. Not even a little bit. At all. Property taxes are a function of land appreciating in wealth, aka income. That has always been taxed, and while I disagree with it, calling it "rent" is like saying that I "rent" my car because I owe interest on the loan I took out to purchase it.

With regards to the restrictions, all that you mention are not so much a function of your own land, but exterior land. You can't put a nuclear reactor in your basement not because you don't own your land, but because that affects those that live near you, whose land you DO NOT own. Big difference there.

Quote: Again with the abolition being a strong word. The estate tax would be a precursor to this however, as well as income tax. Inheritances often take a serious hit.
The estate tax is only for estates > $2,000,000, and was abolished (or at least suspended) in 2001. Inheritances do take a serious hit, they are after all considered to be income, but as you said, they are nowhere close to "abolished".

Quote: Basically, it is the governmental expansion into state owned production. There are small nibbles into this with subsidizing. The cultivation of waste lands and improvement of the soil could be linked closely with actions by the EPA and also the taking of land for the preservation of wildlife (or trees or marshes or whatever "needs" to be saved).
True, but more often than not this takes place on what was already public property, not invoking eminent domain to sieze a swamp for its cultivation or improvement.

Quote: Hobos don't have to labor because they don't own anything. Owning a car or land brings a person to taxation which in turn forces them to labor. You cannot live in this country without a job, even if you own land and could grow enough food to survive, you would be required to give back to the state, which requires some manner of income. Hobos would be the "rebels" which would be automatically dispossesed of all things in their possession and most likely rounded up and put to labor forcibly. This, of course, has not happened.
As was stated, you own on income. Even property taxes operate under the assumption that your land becomes more valuable as the years go on, which in turn is taxed. You could absolutely live off that land wthout ever having a 9-5 job, doing nothing more than renting that land to someone else for their own use. Taxes are never greater than 100%, and in this country are marginal, which means that you can never be worse off for earning more money.

Others that were not responded to.
Quote: 2. A Heavy Progressive or Graduated Income Tax.
We have a marginal progressive income tax, but it's certainly not "heavy". Marx specifically refers to rates approaching 90-100% in the Manifesto. In the US, the highest Income Tax rate is 35%. That's not "heavy" in any way, and again it is marginal, meaning that only the income IN ADDITION to what has already been earned is taxed on that higher level.

Quote: 5.Centralization of Credit in the Hands of the State, by Means of a National Bank with State Capital and an Exclusive Monopoly.
The federal reserve system is complicated, but this simply isn't true. Credit is not monopolized by the state, despite the forthcoming explaination from Psholtz or Norrin about how it is.

Quote: 6.Centralization of the Means of Communication and Transport in the Hands of the State.
Hasn't existed since the dawn of the internet. While I suppose you could argue that the internet is connected either through a cable line or a phone line, which is owned by private contractors granted natural monopolies by the state in a bidding war, to suggest that is what Marx was referring to would be absolute lunacy.

It's undoubtable that our welfare state is growing, and is far bigger than it was 150 years ago. However, to suggest that we are Communist, or even that many of these things were born out of the Communist Manifesto, is A) historically ignorant, an B) grossly misinformed.

If you pay off a car laon, then you only have to pay money for liscense plates after that. If you do not want to drive your car, you can own it, without paying a single penny to the government.

Proeprty taxes are a form of rent. What other assets are taxed every year like property is?

Welfare is communistic, or socialistic in nature. Not being able to see this is ignorant.

Ever hear of Horatio Bunce?

Right now, there are people who work hard to support a family and whp pay taxes, yet there are also people on welfare who are better off than some of the people whp are working and paying for some lazy jerk to watch their big screen t.v. and to drive their new car.

I have seen it numerous times. This goes against everything this country used to stand for.

Maybe you should do a search on Horatio Bunce and learn what Davey Crocket learned.

The income tax did reach 90% at one time. In fact, it was high as hell right after WWI.

Yes, the income tax has come down, but we also have state taxes, sales taxes, property taxes, Social Seciurity, as well as taxes on certain products like alcohol and gasoline.

Ever add up ALL the taxes you pay?

Most people have to work 3-4 months of the year for the government. That is not what the founding fathers intended.

[Todd D.]

Quote: If you pay off a car laon, then you only have to pay money for liscense plates after that. If you do not want to drive your car, you can own it, without paying a single penny to the government.
By your argument then, you can't own a pair of ice skates, since every rink in the country charges admission. Of course, that logic is faulty. Licenses and taxes are for the use of the roads, not rent on a car.

Quote: Proeprty taxes are a form of rent.
No they are not. They differ on a very fundamental level.

Quote: What other assets are taxed every year like property is?
Capital gains, any other form of income.

Quote: Welfare is communistic, or socialistic in nature. Not being able to see this is ignorant.
Yes, it is socialistic in nature. I'm a Libertarian, you're not going to get an argument from me that it's innapropriate.

Quote: The income tax did reach 90% at one time. In fact, it was high as hell right after WWI.
That is not, today. In fact, wouldn't the idea that our taxes have gone DOWN since the Cold War indicate the opposite of what this thread is suggesting?

Quote: Yes, the income tax has come down, but we also have state taxes, sales taxes, property taxes, Social Seciurity, as well as taxes on certain products like alcohol and gasoline.

Ever add up ALL the taxes you pay?
Yes, this is true, but even still it doesn't approach 50%. What you said is accurate, all in you generally end up with 60-70% of your total income.

Quote: Most people have to work 3-4 months of the year for the government. That is not what the founding fathers intended.
I agree, taxes are far too high (I actually advocate the removal of the Income Tax altogether), but there's no need to overstate it and pretend that we have gone full blown Communist. The truth is bad enough.

[Norrin Radd]

Todd D. wrote: Quote: If you pay off a car laon, then you only have to pay money for liscense plates after that. If you do not want to drive your car, you can own it, without paying a single penny to the government.
By your argument then, you can't own a pair of ice skates, since every rink in the country charges admission. Of course, that logic is faulty. Licenses and taxes are for the use of the roads, not rent on a car.

Quote: Proeprty taxes are a form of rent.
No they are not. They differ on a very fundamental level.

Quote: What other assets are taxed every year like property is?
Capital gains, any other form of income.

Quote: Welfare is communistic, or socialistic in nature. Not being able to see this is ignorant.
Yes, it is socialistic in nature. I'm a Libertarian, you're not going to get an argument from me that it's innapropriate.

Quote: The income tax did reach 90% at one time. In fact, it was high as hell right after WWI.
That is not, today. In fact, wouldn't the idea that our taxes have gone DOWN since the Cold War indicate the opposite of what this thread is suggesting?

Quote: Yes, the income tax has come down, but we also have state taxes, sales taxes, property taxes, Social Seciurity, as well as taxes on certain products like alcohol and gasoline.

Ever add up ALL the taxes you pay?
Yes, this is true, but even still it doesn't approach 50%. What you said is accurate, all in you generally end up with 60-70% of your total income.

Quote: Most people have to work 3-4 months of the year for the government. That is not what the founding fathers intended.
I agree, taxes are far too high (I actually advocate the removal of the Income Tax altogether), but there's no need to overstate it and pretend that we have gone full blown Communist. The truth is bad enough.

Have you ever done any reading on Cecil Rhodes, Milner, the Roundtable groups, the Foundations, the Reece committee, the CFR, Norman Dodd, Rene Wormser and Col. House?

I am just asking because i believe these are some of the key pieces of information needed to see the truth. I truly belive, with all my heart, that no one can do this reading and not be very concerned with our future.

....just my opinion.

[Chymical]

If property tax isn'tn akin to rent, how comes you will eventually lose your home for not paying?

sounds like rent by another name for me, and feudalism..still keeping on...

[Medius]

Chymical wrote: If property tax isn'tn akin to rent, how comes you will eventually lose your home for not paying?

sounds like rent by another name for me, and feudalism..still keeping on...

I have to agree with this in some respects. Taxation is more of a usage fee or a rent than a tax on your gains. While you own the property itself you see no gains. Would I pay gains on a barrel of oil in my back yard? It certainly increases in value. But no, when I sell the oil, I see gain, and that is taxed. Same thing with property.

I could see having an excess tax with property, soley to ensure that property isn't all grabbed up by one company and sat on. But having a tax on a personal home? Sorry, but that's just another form of rent.

[Norrin Radd]

Medius wrote: Chymical wrote: If property tax isn'tn akin to rent, how comes you will eventually lose your home for not paying?

sounds like rent by another name for me, and feudalism..still keeping on...

I have to agree with this in some respects. Taxation is more of a usage fee or a rent than a tax on your gains. While you own the property itself you see no gains. Would I pay gains on a barrel of oil in my back yard? It certainly increases in value. But no, when I sell the oil, I see gain, and that is taxed. Same thing with property.

I could see having an excess tax with property, soley to ensure that property isn't all grabbed up by one company and sat on. But having a tax on a personal home? Sorry, but that's just another form of rent.

I agree and I would love to see the abolishment of all proeprty taxes on OWNER OCCUPIED homes. If people own two homes, I could see possibly abolishing taxes for the 2nd home as well. In this way older, retired people would have a better chance of not losing their home, or having to do one of those silly reverse mortgages.

[Spitfire]

Just a question for you guys...

Have any of you actually read any of Karl Marx's work???

He DIDN'T want a large state. In fact, he promoted the irradication of the state through decentralisation and dissipation of ruling class power. The 'COMMUN' in Communism refers to community. Individual communities should hold the power to their own fate. Marx valued socialism from below - workers and people stopping their own exploitation, not socialism from above - the state being involved and not the workers.

[Wizard From Oz]

Quote: Just a question for you guys...

Have any of you actually read any of Karl Marx's work???

He DIDN'T want a large state. In fact, he promoted the irradication of the state through decentralisation and dissipation of ruling class power. The 'COMMUN' in Communism refers to community. Individual communities should hold the power to their own fate. Marx valued socialism from below - workers and people stopping their own exploitation, not socialism from above - the state being involved and not the workers.

Now dont go clouding the issue with facts alright :) - and if anyone wants to disagree - look up the word soviet in a Russian dictionary

[Norrin Radd]

As long as greed exists in man socialism will never work, as someone has to decide what is fair and there will always be people who take advantage of others. It is impossible to divide everything equally and there will always be people who believe they are "more equal" than others.

[Wizard From Oz]

Quote: As long as greed exists in man socialism will never work, as someone has to decide what is fair and there will always be people who take advantage of others. It is impossible to divide everything equally and there will always be people who believe they are "more equal" than others.

Marx's writing was political theory - whether he ever thought such a utopian society was achievable is an interesting debating point.

I recall reading some stuff on the early Soviet economy. Suddenly they realised under communism no one could be a waiter in a resteraunt lol. So some hasty rejigging of politcal doctrine was needed