Political Crossfire Forums

ToonArmyIsComing · Joined: 15 Feb 2005 Posts: 5888 Location: Ontario

I have always been of the opinion that the social conservative mentra only works in the short term. In the long run, it will only breed perversion as people are repressed. Also considering the Egyptian population is quite young, they can't get rid of their youthful energy in the conservative setting of Egypt and that adds to the problem.

Quote: Cairo street crowds target women

The incidents were first reported online by Egyptian bloggers, some of whom saw large number of men harassing the women and ripping off their clothes.

It all happened over the Eid al-Fitr period starting on 23 October, as thousands of young men thronged the streets of central Cairo to celebrate the end of the fasting month of Ramadan.

One blogger who took pictures of what happened dubbed the incidents "sexual voracity down town".

According to the bloggers, the attackers targeted veiled as well as unveiled women who happened to be on their own.

The state media ignored the incidents, but ordinary Egyptians where shocked when they heard for the first time eyewitness accounts broadcast on the private television channel Dream.

Women chased

"We saw one girl being chased by a man, her blouse torn off, she ran inside a restaurant," one eyewitness reported.

"Seconds later young boys were shouting that there was another one by the Miami cinema. We went there and saw another girl surrounded by a crowd trying to assault her. She managed to run inside a nearby building.

"A third girl jumped into a cab as she was being chased. But the taxi couldn't move because of the crowd. Then they tried to pull the driver out of the car then the girl herself," the witness told Dream TV.

One eyewitness was too embarrassed to recount what he saw: "There were youths harassing the young women. What a shame! I really can not say any more about it."

Social malaise

One blogger wrote that as the police failed to protect the women, shop keepers had to intervene.

A shop owner described to the TV station what happened: "We took the girl inside and locked the door. There were four or five of us. But there were hundreds of young men outside trying to break down the door."

The bloggers blamed the incidents on widespread sexual frustration among Egypt's youths.

Most of them cannot afford to get married and premarital sex is strictly forbidden.

One commentator said that this was evidence of the breakdown of law and order in Egypt.

Another said the state deployed the police only to suppress political dissent but could not care less about the welfare of its own citizens.

A psychologist, Amr Abu Khaleel, attributed the predatory behaviour to the possible use of drugs and the breakdown of traditional values.

One prominent writer and journalist, Nabeel Sharaf al-Deen, said that such behaviour was the symptom of a deeper malaise in Egyptian society and warned that such incidents were the first stirrings of much bigger social unrest.

A statement by the ministry of the interior played down the incident, adding that it had not received any complaints from the public. It urged those who had anything to report to contact the police.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6106500.stm

Venom · Joined: 06 Sep 2006 Posts: 807

Quote: The bloggers blamed the incidents on widespread sexual frustration among Egypt's youths.
Because your these "youths" aren't very sexually active they are driven to rape? How sick is this...

Quote: Most of them cannot afford to get married and premarital sex is strictly forbidden.
Now is premarital sex just "strictly forbidden" or outright against the law in Egypt? There are people in the US that don't engage in premarital sex (a large minority mind you) and I know some of these people. I've yet to see them raping women in the streets.
If they want the law changed, then go to the polls, vote do something. Don't rape women.

ToonArmyIsComing · Joined: 15 Feb 2005 Posts: 5888 Location: Ontario

Venom wrote: Quote: The bloggers blamed the incidents on widespread sexual frustration among Egypt's youths.

Because your these "youths" aren't very sexually active they are driven to rape? How sick is this...

CONTEXT matters.

Venom wrote: Quote: Most of them cannot afford to get married and premarital sex is strictly forbidden.

Now is premarital sex just "strictly forbidden" or outright against the law in Egypt? There are people in the US that don't engage in premarital sex (a large minority mind you) and I know some of these people. I've yet to see them raping women in the streets.
If they want the law changed, then go to the polls, vote do something. Don't rape women.

A bit of perspective is necessary here. The context here is a socially conservative society [NOTE: the Southern US is not a good comparison as social conservatism of that region pales with the social conservatism of the Middle East] with huge unemployment, political and cultural problems. The combination of these factors lead to various problems.

In a sense, one of the only avenues open for young people has been marriage: Marriage has been a vehicle for personal and sexual fullfillment, but with the unemployment and the depressed economic condition, people cannot get married, so frustration occurs because of lack of fulfillment in life.

Frustration also grows as there is very little avenues for the young population to express themselves since they are politically and socially repressed.

And the Egyptian political system isn't really free, so going to the poll will not achieve much.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 15230 Location: On Earth

BBC wrote: A psychologist, Amr Abu Khaleel, attributed the predatory behaviour to the possible use of drugs and the breakdown of traditional values.

This breakdown of traditional values started to happen in the ME with Western intervention.

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 7421 Location: Petah Tikva

So your blaming this on Western Influence?

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 15230 Location: On Earth

superskippy wrote: So your blaming this on Western Influence?

Not entirely. I'm blaming it on them for taking Western influence and replacing Islamic teachings that clearly condemn these actions with influences from the media that are seductive and tempting. The ultimate blame lies on their shoulders for degenerating into such backwardness, and for not adhering to proper religious values.

I admit that I'm not a devout person, but when traditional values degenerate, you get a lesser order and more deviance from the social norms. This in turn makes them bad. I'm just saying that media influence shaped them like this, and from this media influence, most of it has come from the West. I'm not blaming the West, but just the influence of the Egyptian media which was shaped by Western media.

ToonArmyIsComing · Joined: 15 Feb 2005 Posts: 5888 Location: Ontario

Saracen wrote: This breakdown of traditional values started to happen in the ME with Western intervention.

The breakdown of "traditional" values in the Middle East occured when the Middle East failed to adapt to the modern world.

I also would challenge the notion of "traditional" as I believe the traditional Muslim societies were not as religious as they are today.

Saracen wrote: Not entirely. I'm blaming it on them for taking Western influence and replacing Islamic teachings that clearly condemn these actions with influences from the media that are seductive and tempting. The ultimate blame lies on their shoulders for degenerating into such backwardness, and for not adhering to proper religious values.

That is the exact same language that the Muslim brotherhood in Egypt and Syria, Khomeinists in Iran, and other Islamic groups influenced by Qutbism and Hassan Al Banna have used for over a century now. Yet, what is quite clear, the implementation of religious values have not led to any improvement in the Muslim societies in general.

Saracen wrote: I admit that I'm not a devout person, but when traditional values degenerate, you get a lesser order and more deviance from the social norms. This in turn makes them bad. I'm just saying that media influence shaped them like this, and from this media influence, most of it has come from the West. I'm not blaming the West, but just the influence of the Egyptian media which was shaped by Western media.

Not so. Egypt is a microcosm of what is wrong with the Middle East:

1- It has a young population with lots of energy.

2- This young generation is ready to explode as there is a lack of anything positive to do with their lives.

3- This is caused by a variety of factors:
a) The overt religious zealousness, an overtly repressive culture, and the traditional values that are not in tune with the modern world cause conditions of discontent.
b) Added to that is the lack of economic opportunities, which further reduces the chances of these people finding jobs and live a good life. So people are dissatisfied.
c) There is also a lack of entertainment where these people cannot burn off their energy, which means there is a negative energy build up.

4- The political situation is repressive as well, so in effect, this adds another level of discontent.

So a combination of all these factors leads to a widespread dissatisfaction and the breakdown of the society.

Religion and the traditional order are in effect the cause of this situation rather than solution.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 15230 Location: On Earth

ToonArmyIsComing wrote: The breakdown of "traditional" values in the Middle East occured when the Middle East failed to adapt to the modern world.

I also would challenge the notion of "traditional" as I believe the traditional Muslim societies were not as religious as they are today.

Incorrect. Muslims were far more religious in the past than today, on average.

Quote: That is the exact same language that the Muslim brotherhood in Egypt and Syria, Khomeinists in Iran, and other Islamic groups influenced by Qutbism and Hassan Al Banna have used for over a century now. Yet, what is quite clear, the implementation of religious values have not led to any improvement in the Muslim societies in general.

The way it was implemented was wrong. The values themselves were not.

Quote: 1- It has a young population with lots of energy.

2- This young generation is ready to explode as there is a lack of anything positive to do with their lives.

Same with the rest of the MidEast, because of the lack of freedom offered by dictatorships, not by the collective.

Quote: 3- This is caused by a variety of factors:
a) The overt religious zealousness, an overtly repressive culture, and the traditional values that are not in tune with the modern world cause conditions of discontent.

There is no extreme zeal in the MidEast. Islam is just something many people are trying to turn to. And it is known that many of these people approach it wrongly.

Quote: b) Added to that is the lack of economic opportunities, which further reduces the chances of these people finding jobs and live a good life. So people are dissatisfied.

The economic deficiency is caused by, as I've said before, the government, which does not do a good job at maintaining a social order more or less an economic order.

Quote: c) There is also a lack of entertainment where these people cannot burn off their energy, which means there is a negative energy build up

There are cinemas in Egypt, and I agree that the situation needs to change such that there is more freedom.

Quote: 4- The political situation is repressive as well, so in effect, this adds another level of discontent.

That's what I stated above.

Quote: So a combination of all these factors leads to a widespread dissatisfaction and the breakdown of the society.

Not entirely. It largely has to do with the government and the influence of the media.

Quote: Religion and the traditional order are in effect the cause of this situation rather than solution.

They are the solution because when they were impllemented during the rise of Islam, things were much much better.

Venom · Joined: 06 Sep 2006 Posts: 807

Quote: CONTEXT matters.
The context is that there were apparently mobs of men looking to rape women.

Quote: NOTE: the Southern US is not a good comparison as social conservatism of that region pales with the social conservatism of the Middle East]
I wasn't comparing the South as it's not a place of people abstaining from sex. There are pockets all over the US. I live near a pocket of one of these and I don't see the youthful men running women down in the streets to rape them because they haven't had sex. I'm comparing people who don't have sex till they are married.
The saddest part is that apparently if the women had been raped they would have been shamed for this even though they were the victim.

Quote: Frustration also grows as there is very little avenues for the young population to express themselves since they are politically and socially repressed.

And the Egyptian political system isn't really free, so going to the poll will not achieve much
Ok and this validates these guy's actions how? In the mindset of these men apparently these women were asking for it by *gasp* walking without a man. Also it seems odd to me that neither you or Saracen has really said that these actions were even wrong, all I've read are excuses as to why these youths attempted this mass rape.

Saracen
Quote: This breakdown of traditional values started to happen in the ME with Western intervention
Of course it did or maybe that part of the world has been full of these crimes since the start of time. It's odd that you see the ME as some Utopia without Western intervention and just goes to prove an inaccurate view of this part of the world.
Just another example of the ME seemingly unable to take responsibility for something that has happened there.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 15230 Location: On Earth

[quote="Venom"[/quote]Of course it did or maybe that part of the world has been full of these crimes since the start of time. It's odd that you see the ME as some Utopia without Western intervention and just goes to prove an inaccurate view of this part of the world. [/quote]

Incorrect.

Quote: Just another example of the ME seemingly unable to take responsibility for something that has happened there.

I already did. I claimed that ME governments are responsible for this degeneracy, as is the ME media.

Venom · Joined: 06 Sep 2006 Posts: 807

Quote: I already did. I claimed that ME governments are responsible for this degeneracy, as is the ME media.
How did the governments or even the media cause this? I guess if I play enough GTA I can go shoot people because hey the media caused it.
It is the actions that these youths choose to take part in, not because their government doesn't allow premarital sex or that the media shows whatever on TV.
These actions are caused by.... the youths... they made the decision to take part in this. I've yet to go on a killing spree because I've seen all sorts of violence on TV.
So again instead of blaming these individuals for their choice of action you will blame their entire government and the media.
By the same token I can blame all of Islam for the terrorists can I not? It's not their fault that their religion tells them to do this right?

Quote: Incorrect.

Incorrect? Your own link shows that this part of the world is not a Utopia. How does your link push the blame of the violence in the Egypt on the West? You know whats odd, is that you blame these rape attempts as a fault of the West, yet the reason that premarital sex is banned is a ME theme apparently. Premarital sex isn't banned in the US. So apparently if Egypt was actually had conformed to the West they wouldn't have this problem.
Again how about have these youths take responsibility for the crime they chose to take part in instead of making excuses for them.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 15230 Location: On Earth

Venom wrote: Quote: I already did. I claimed that ME governments are responsible for this degeneracy, as is the ME media.
How did the governments or even the media cause this? I guess if I play enough GTA I can go shoot people because hey the media caused it.
It is the actions that these youths choose to take part in, not because their government doesn't allow premarital sex or that the media shows whatever on TV.
These actions are caused by.... the youths... they made the decision to take part in this. I've yet to go on a killing spree because I've seen all sorts of violence on TV.
So again instead of blaming these individuals for their choice of action you will blame their entire government and the media.
By the same token I can blame all of Islam for the terrorists can I not? It's not their fault that their religion tells them to do this right?

I didn't say that the youths are far from blame. They made the choice to do this, and I also criticize the social circumstances that created these rapists.

Quote: Quote: Incorrect.

Incorrect? Your own link shows that this part of the world is not a Utopia. How does your link push the blame of the violence in the Egypt on the West? You know whats odd, is that you blame these rape attempts as a fault of the West, yet the reason that premarital sex is banned is a ME theme apparently. Premarital sex isn't banned in the US. So apparently if Egypt was actually had conformed to the West they wouldn't have this problem.
Again how about have these youths take responsibility for the crime they chose to take part in instead of making excuses for them.

The police deals with such cases all the time. As for my link, it states that the ME isn't a utopia, but then again, there is no such thing as utopia. I'm saying that on average there are lower crime rates in MidEastern countries. However, I still place the blame on the youths for starting this mess because they didn't stick to traditional values.

Di · Joined: 30 Aug 2004 Posts: 853 Location: Northern Calif

... wow. Just... wow.

Mobs of men... hundreds of men... chase down women in broad daylight in the middle of a city to rip off their clothes and sexually assault them, and some in here have the audacity to blame the west? I keep waiting for the posts to start blaming the women, because if they didn't have those danged attractive breasts and vaginas in the first place, men (who everyone knows are not expected to have self-control or take responsibility for their own actions) wouldn't have been "forced" to rip their clothes off and rape them in a public street.

The other part of this story that appalls me is that the Egyptian authorities did absolutely nothing to stop it. Like, why should they? It was only women being attacked... not like they are real people or anything. So we have a governmental entity that encourages this behavior by neither stopping it nor punishing it, and the "west" is to blame? Yes, "social circumstance" created these hundreds of rapists... the social circumstance of a culture that views women as property and tells men that they are free to indulge in all manner of criminal acts from rape to mass murder by simply blaming the victims and the generic "west" for their own behavior.

Venom · Joined: 06 Sep 2006 Posts: 807

Women certainly appear to be less than men in the Arab world. Oddly enough feminist politicians in the United States are very sympathetic to ME issues such as Palestine's "oppression".

emerald · Joined: 05 Apr 2005 Posts: 6896 Location: uk

i was incredibly suprised by this story, i actually read about it a few days ago on a variety of egyptian blogs and the outrage there, from both egyptian men and women was huge and understandably so.

the main reason this suprised me so much was because i've been to egypt a few times, last of which was this summer, and i have always felt safe there, everyone is protective, people are helpful, and genuinely caring and respectful, especially towards women. the general attitude is always that they treat you like they would a sister or mother of wife, not to demean you like this pathetic story has shown. (i'm not egyptian btw!)

Quote: Now is premarital sex just "strictly forbidden" or outright against the law in Egypt? There are people in the US that don't engage in premarital sex (a large minority mind you) and I know some of these people. I've yet to see them raping women in the streets.
If they want the law changed, then go to the polls, vote do something. Don't rape women.

no one was raped, it was sexual assault but no actual rape as i understood it from the various sources i read.

have you read a similar story that happened in Central Park? it was on the CNN website......i'll have a look for it.

Quote: The other part of this story that appalls me is that the Egyptian authorities did absolutely nothing to stop it. Like, why should they? It was only women being attacked... not like they are real people or anything. So we have a governmental entity that encourages this behavior by neither stopping it nor punishing it, and the "west" is to blame? Yes, "social circumstance" created these hundreds of rapists... the social circumstance of a culture that views women as property and tells men that they are free to indulge in all manner of criminal acts from rape to mass murder by simply blaming the victims and the generic "west" for their own behavior.

you are fiesty! i honestly dont blame your reaction, i felt the same way when i read the story, and what made it worse was the fact i held the egyptian people in general with high regard, and i still do, i cant believe that this gang of idiots and the police who are and always have been a huge dissapointment could be the actions and voice for the egyptians.

emerald · Joined: 05 Apr 2005 Posts: 6896 Location: uk

here are the links for the central park attacks.......i couldnt find the article i had read specifically but these mention the incidents and what is happening.

http://archive.salon.com/news/feature/2000/06/23/central_park/index.html

http://www.townsunited.com/central_park.htm

http://archive.salon.com/news/feature/2000/06/19/central_park/

and here is the opinion of an egyptian human rights activits views on this incident. there are links to other egyptian blogs that totally condemn this action and probably without them the story would not have even made it to the BBC which is one of the first to pick it up because of the outrage it stirred amongst egyptians.

http://www.sandmonkey.org/index.php?s=cairo+sexual+assaults

Venom · Joined: 06 Sep 2006 Posts: 807

Quote: no one was raped, it was sexual assault but no actual rape as i understood it from the various sources i read.
Because they were unable to capture the women. Isn't rape sexual assault? Fondling someone against their will or something like that sounds like rape to me... they may not have actually gang raped these women in the sense of holding them down and all that, however as you have stated, it was sexual assault. Whats the difference?

Quote: have you read a similar story that happened in Central Park? it was on the CNN website......i'll have a look for it
Yet the victims of these crimes are not punished for being raped by the courts.

Quote: So far, 10 men have been arrested on charges of sexual assault and robbery in attacks that took place June 11 in New York's Central Park following the Puerto Rican Day Parade. At least 44 women were sprayed with water, groped, stripped or robbed by groups of young men. The incident has been another black eye to the city and its police department, which has been under fire for its nonchalant responses to victims.

This above quote is from your source. I skimmed the article unable to find a part where the women were being charged for this horrible event that made them victims.

Quote: the main reason this suprised me so much was because i've been to egypt a few times, last of which was this summer, and i have always felt safe there, everyone is protective, people are helpful, and genuinely caring and respectful, especially towards women. the general attitude is always that they treat you like they would a sister or mother of wife, not to demean you like this pathetic story has shown
Were you accompanied by a man at all times? These women were attacked for being on their own.

Quote: and here is the opinion of an egyptian human rights activits views on this incident. there are links to other egyptian blogs that totally condemn this action and probably without them the story would not have even made it to the BBC which is one of the first to pick it up because of the outrage it stirred amongst egyptians So it takes blogs and a human rights group to report this? When the NYC stuff happened was it not on the mainstream news in the United States? I recall watching a segment about it.
So instead apparently the ME Media turns a blind eye to this, only to have it unraveled by bloggers.

Di · Joined: 30 Aug 2004 Posts: 853 Location: Northern Calif

The Central Park incident was horrific. It involved about two dozen rampaging youths (not hundreds). Only about 10 of them were caught and prosecuted, as opposed to zero caught and prosecuted in Egypt. The female victims were NOT blamed for being victims, BTW, and the authorities did not ignore the entire incident (with the exception of one since-fired police officer who couldn't be bothered to check on the complaint because he was on his break).

So let us not imply that what happened in Egypt wasn't so bad because something similar had once happened elsewhere on a much lesser scale, and was treated as the crime that it was.

Edit update: 17 young men were arrested, not 10... and here is a CNN story on the attack, since the Salon articles linked by emerald are actually commentaries, not news stories.

slitedeviance · Joined: 02 Sep 2006 Posts: 1507

Di wrote: The Central Park incident was horrific.

Just need to check, did this incident actually involve women being raped as opposed to sexually assaulted?

Venom · Joined: 06 Sep 2006 Posts: 807

Quote: Just need to check, did this incident actually involve women being raped as opposed to sexually assaulted?
If I recall they were not "raped" but "sexually assaulted? Sexual assault is just as bad in my opinion. I do not recall the court decision on the 10 that were arrested for this in NYC, but it should have been treated just as rape.

Quote: no one was raped, it was sexual assault but no actual rape as i understood it from the various sources i read.
Apparently this is more due to the women being able to somehow outrun the men. The men certainly appear to have attempted to rape the women...