Political Crossfire Forums

[Kilo Tango]

Human shields, suicide bombers...those women have equal rights on all the important issues over there.

Female suicide bomber attacks Israeli troops in Gaza

[The Russian]

[quote="Fido"] Quote: [quote="Angelicus"] Fido wrote: Did you see the film. It looked like a penguin stampede.

What you are missing, and the Israelis are missing, and G.W.Bush is clearly missing is that to fight them around women and children is to give them the choice of the battle field. To not give them the choice might mean there is no fight, but also no civilian casualties. If you want peace it is better to first stop the fight.


(Tell that to the terrorists, they began, and continue this fight.)

Whether they began it or not, to go there and fight them in their land and in their cities is a mistake only made necessary by our desire to own their oil.


Quote: If you have to fight because the field will not support the army than you have to fight on their terms. In either case, of collateral damage, or loss of terrain choice you have still lost the advantage of superior resources and training.

(Thats complete nonsense)

Prove it. We are going to give up and come home because we look at the bottom line and the death toll. Taking the place was nothing, and keeping the place is everything, and we are going to walk away months and possibly years before we might have had a settled government because we busted their army when it was all that was holding the place together. Then to be in their homes and their cities and having to supply our troops is exactly the situation T.E. Lawrence set for the Turks. Then all you have to do is spread them thin and take out their (our) lines of communication. We are playing to lose, and have given up a chance at a draw.


Quote: You have to ask: How many will we have to kill to declare victory, and what will that victory amount to if we have only planted the seeds of more hatred and violence? The Israelis have not won, but perhaps that is not their object. Fighting Israel's war as Israel has taught us to fight it will not result in victory for us. Why then do we fight it? We cannot kill them all, and we cannot convert them all, and we cannot beat them all; so what is our point?

(Actually yes we can kill them all, provided we have the backbone and political will to do so.)

Find it. I am not giving my permission for that sort of non sense from my government.

Quote: Quote: We might command their resources, and isolate them to their lands while we rob them; but only at the expense of non stop conflict. Are we prepared for that? The Israelis find it possible because they are zealots. We cannot justify our own actions in the same fashion.


[color=blue](Since when is buying "resources", that someone else is selling "robbing" them? And the problem the Israelis have is the same one we have. Israel has to deal with malcontent appeaser fifth columnists who constantly boohoo that we can't win, whine that these terrorists aren't being given "rights", and pine for the relase of terrorist scum we jail. You know, the same people who keep making comments in the floor of the Senate and the House, that have been shown time and time gain too give the terrorists aid and comfort.

I agree, it is alot harder to win a war when you have too contend with enemies from within like that, as well as fighting the enemy that is without.

Buying resources when they cannot refuse to sell is like calling rape love. Try to remember that even if we steal what is theirs, we still have to sell our products to them, unless we are planning on killing them all. But like Lincoln said of the skunks: I shot one and he put up such a stink about it I decided to let the rest go. We are going to find some reason to let the skunks go. We didn't have a real good excuse to go there. I hope in going we will realize our best defense is a secure border, and that the best defense is a defense, and not an offense. We should learn from the art of war that the best weapon is an understanding of the enemy. All we had was a misunderstanding of the enemy pushed to its outside limit.

are you insane? the palestinians have no oil...

[Margo]

Fido wrote: Margo wrote: Fido, would you mind clarifying for me exactly who it is that you claim are all republicans? And just for the record...republicans are men, women, protestants, catholics, Jews, atheists,

also, when you say "my people". who would that be?

You asked me to explain why I think Jews have a right to the land called Israel. I answered your question citing evidence to back up my argument. However, I don't believe you offered any evidence to support your claim. You're offering opinions based on what?

I did not come to this forum out of the desire to write a history book. If that were my desire I would begin by gettin college edufied. But I have some books, and I find them informative. As I have already mentioned in a history thread, and I don't believe it has been challenged, the Jews in Genesis have a claim on Israel older than that mentioned by you. Specifically, that would be the grave of Sara, bought over the objections and protestations of its owner. All the genocide practiced on the residents after the exodus was after the fact of this one purchase.

So, Let me offer you a couple of books which detail in some regard, and trace through some examples of language the path of the Aryans. Our Oriental Heritage by Will Durant outlines in brief the links of Indo European with German, Latin, Greek; and you know, perhaps what part these play in English. Henri Hubert in a beautiful and well thought out work called The Rise of the Celt, also did the same in more recent times, showing how German place names were often Celtic in origin, and also drew these back en gross to the indo European, where some names like 'mother' have remained stable for thousands of years. I have personally seen artifacts of great beauty thought to be Celtic found through areas of North of Greece, and you know of the Gallic wars fought by Caesar. Any good annotated Bible should have information on Paul's letter to the Galatians, which, if I remember correctly, Hubert, among others has said spoke Gallic. You might also be aware of Archaeological evidence even up into China of tall, white skinned, reddish haired, mummies dressed in plaid. Naturally, the Chinese are reticent about allowing these bodies to be genetically tested out of the fear of giving anyone a claim on their territory.
But what is the meaning of these facts? Do people long departed from a corner of the world have any claim on it? I would first ask: Who is stopping anyone from going anywhere so long as they live in peace? The Jews were not prohibited by the Emir Faisal from living in Palestine or from having their own schools and institutions. But he was absolutely right that it was geographical a part of transjordan. Where there are no natural boundaries warfare and disputes must be constant. I got to go vote. Democratic.
P.S. I also have a good book, though not before me, called marriage and kinship in Ancient Arabia which you might find interesting reading, as it references Bible traditions to help explain much of Arabic tradition.

Thank you for the reading suggestions. I have one for you too, called Bible and Sword - England and Palestine from the Bronze Age to Balfour, very interesting book about the ties between England and Israel.

So, are we in agreement then that the Jews were there first and this is indeed their homeland and have a right to it, since you stated:
As I have already mentioned in a history thread, and I don't believe it has been challenged, the Jews in Genesis have a claim on Israel older than that mentioned by you.
Referring to the covenant between Abraham and God, the relationships of
Abraham, Sara and Hagar and their children.

Do people long departed from a corner of the world have any claim on it?
Excellent question, Fido. We all come from somewhere and we all search for our past origins. But with the Jews, we are talking about the same people, the same land, the same language for the past 3,300 years. To me, that is historically significant.

I'm off to vote. Republican.

[Fido]

Margo wrote: Fido wrote: Margo wrote: Fido, would you mind clarifying for me exactly who it is that you claim are all republicans? And just for the record...republicans are men, women, protestants, catholics, Jews, atheists,

also, when you say "my people". who would that be?

You asked me to explain why I think Jews have a right to the land called Israel. I answered your question citing evidence to back up my argument. However, I don't believe you offered any evidence to support your claim. You're offering opinions based on what?

I did not come to this forum out of the desire to write a history book. If that were my desire I would begin by gettin college edufied. But I have some books, and I find them informative. As I have already mentioned in a history thread, and I don't believe it has been challenged, the Jews in Genesis have a claim on Israel older than that mentioned by you. Specifically, that would be the grave of Sara, bought over the objections and protestations of its owner. All the genocide practiced on the residents after the exodus was after the fact of this one purchase.

So, Let me offer you a couple of books which detail in some regard, and trace through some examples of language the path of the Aryans. Our Oriental Heritage by Will Durant outlines in brief the links of Indo European with German, Latin, Greek; and you know, perhaps what part these play in English. Henri Hubert in a beautiful and well thought out work called The Rise of the Celt, also did the same in more recent times, showing how German place names were often Celtic in origin, and also drew these back en gross to the indo European, where some names like 'mother' have remained stable for thousands of years. I have personally seen artifacts of great beauty thought to be Celtic found through areas of North of Greece, and you know of the Gallic wars fought by Caesar. Any good annotated Bible should have information on Paul's letter to the Galatians, which, if I remember correctly, Hubert, among others has said spoke Gallic. You might also be aware of Archaeological evidence even up into China of tall, white skinned, reddish haired, mummies dressed in plaid. Naturally, the Chinese are reticent about allowing these bodies to be genetically tested out of the fear of giving anyone a claim on their territory.
But what is the meaning of these facts? Do people long departed from a corner of the world have any claim on it? I would first ask: Who is stopping anyone from going anywhere so long as they live in peace? The Jews were not prohibited by the Emir Faisal from living in Palestine or from having their own schools and institutions. But he was absolutely right that it was geographical a part of transjordan. Where there are no natural boundaries warfare and disputes must be constant. I got to go vote. Democratic.
P.S. I also have a good book, though not before me, called marriage and kinship in Ancient Arabia which you might find interesting reading, as it references Bible traditions to help explain much of Arabic tradition.

Thank you for the reading suggestions. I have one for you too, called Bible and Sword - England and Palestine from the Bronze Age to Balfour, very interesting book about the ties between England and Israel.

So, are we in agreement then that the Jews were there first and this is indeed their homeland and have a right to it, since you stated:
As I have already mentioned in a history thread, and I don't believe it has been challenged, the Jews in Genesis have a claim on Israel older than that mentioned by you.
Referring to the covenant between Abraham and God, the relationships of
Abraham, Sara and Hagar and their children.

Do people long departed from a corner of the world have any claim on it?
Excellent question, Fido. We all come from somewhere and we all search for our past origins. But with the Jews, we are talking about the same people, the same land, the same language for the past 3,300 years. To me, that is historically significant.

I'm off to vote. Republican.

No, The Jews have been long gone, though perhaps not entirely gone from Palestine. In fact, it is possible that many they now oppress converted to Islam. It was not necessary, but many Christians converted that we know of, and perhaps many Jews who we would have called Samaritans did so to avoid taxation and enjoy full citizenship. I have heard of many Christians and Jews who lived there, whose families lived there from ancient times being displaced and badly treated by European Jews.

The question is: Does the grave of Sara story wash, since it is little more than a story, and gave no general title to the land, and has no evidence besides the Bible? We know a particularly troublesome group was exported into Babylonian captivity, came back with two groups of powerful priest with the authority to enforce their laws, came immediately into conflict with their own people practicing their traditional religion, and exploited their own people mercilessly. In a land where people were suing each other for their tunics there was enough wealth in the city of Jerusalem to build the Coliseum.

When these people cannot make themselves obnoxious to every race of people with their exploitation they turn on themselves. This group found America to be a gift of God. Where have they not come into conflict with native populations? Before the diaspora there was non stop trouble between the Jews of Egypt and the Egyptian Greeks. Do you believe that all the coin clipping Jews of Europe were a myth?

I would be happy to see them all in Israel, even those I am related too. But to think the world is ever going to be a happy place as long as one group, thinking itself superior, is allowed to exploit a captive population is wrong. That is what is happening there. To have any hope of holding the land the Palestinians must stay put, and to stay put means they will be robbed of the fruits of all their labor. They cannot win; but who does in relation the the Jews? They are like poison ivy or mice. They always come back.

[Margo]

Fido wrote: Margo wrote: Fido wrote: Margo wrote: Fido, would you mind clarifying for me exactly who it is that you claim are all republicans? And just for the record...republicans are men, women, protestants, catholics, Jews, atheists,

also, when you say "my people". who would that be?

You asked me to explain why I think Jews have a right to the land called Israel. I answered your question citing evidence to back up my argument. However, I don't believe you offered any evidence to support your claim. You're offering opinions based on what?

I did not come to this forum out of the desire to write a history book. If that were my desire I would begin by gettin college edufied. But I have some books, and I find them informative. As I have already mentioned in a history thread, and I don't believe it has been challenged, the Jews in Genesis have a claim on Israel older than that mentioned by you. Specifically, that would be the grave of Sara, bought over the objections and protestations of its owner. All the genocide practiced on the residents after the exodus was after the fact of this one purchase.

So, Let me offer you a couple of books which detail in some regard, and trace through some examples of language the path of the Aryans. Our Oriental Heritage by Will Durant outlines in brief the links of Indo European with German, Latin, Greek; and you know, perhaps what part these play in English. Henri Hubert in a beautiful and well thought out work called The Rise of the Celt, also did the same in more recent times, showing how German place names were often Celtic in origin, and also drew these back en gross to the indo European, where some names like 'mother' have remained stable for thousands of years. I have personally seen artifacts of great beauty thought to be Celtic found through areas of North of Greece, and you know of the Gallic wars fought by Caesar. Any good annotated Bible should have information on Paul's letter to the Galatians, which, if I remember correctly, Hubert, among others has said spoke Gallic. You might also be aware of Archaeological evidence even up into China of tall, white skinned, reddish haired, mummies dressed in plaid. Naturally, the Chinese are reticent about allowing these bodies to be genetically tested out of the fear of giving anyone a claim on their territory.
But what is the meaning of these facts? Do people long departed from a corner of the world have any claim on it? I would first ask: Who is stopping anyone from going anywhere so long as they live in peace? The Jews were not prohibited by the Emir Faisal from living in Palestine or from having their own schools and institutions. But he was absolutely right that it was geographical a part of transjordan. Where there are no natural boundaries warfare and disputes must be constant. I got to go vote. Democratic.
P.S. I also have a good book, though not before me, called marriage and kinship in Ancient Arabia which you might find interesting reading, as it references Bible traditions to help explain much of Arabic tradition.

Thank you for the reading suggestions. I have one for you too, called Bible and Sword - England and Palestine from the Bronze Age to Balfour, very interesting book about the ties between England and Israel.

So, are we in agreement then that the Jews were there first and this is indeed their homeland and have a right to it, since you stated:
As I have already mentioned in a history thread, and I don't believe it has been challenged, the Jews in Genesis have a claim on Israel older than that mentioned by you.
Referring to the covenant between Abraham and God, the relationships of
Abraham, Sara and Hagar and their children.

Do people long departed from a corner of the world have any claim on it?
Excellent question, Fido. We all come from somewhere and we all search for our past origins. But with the Jews, we are talking about the same people, the same land, the same language for the past 3,300 years. To me, that is historically significant.

I'm off to vote. Republican.

No, The Jews have been long gone, though perhaps not entirely gone from Palestine. In fact, it is possible that many they now oppress converted to Islam. It was not necessary, but many Christians converted that we know of, and perhaps many Jews who we would have called Samaritans did so to avoid taxation and enjoy full citizenship. I have heard of many Christians and Jews who lived there, whose families lived there from ancient times being displaced and badly treated by European Jews.

The question is: Does the grave of Sara story wash, since it is little more than a story, and gave no general title to the land, and has no evidence besides the Bible? We know a particularly troublesome group was exported into Babylonian captivity, came back with two groups of powerful priest with the authority to enforce their laws, came immediately into conflict with their own people practicing their traditional religion, and exploited their own people mercilessly. In a land where people were suing each other for their tunics there was enough wealth in the city of Jerusalem to build the Coliseum.

When these people cannot make themselves obnoxious to every race of people with their exploitation they turn on themselves. This group found America to be a gift of God. Where have they not come into conflict with native populations? Before the diaspora there was non stop trouble between the Jews of Egypt and the Egyptian Greeks. Do you believe that all the coin clipping Jews of Europe were a myth?

I would be happy to see them all in Israel, even those I am related too. But to think the world is ever going to be a happy place as long as one group, thinking itself superior, is allowed to exploit a captive population is wrong. That is what is happening there. To have any hope of holding the land the Palestinians must stay put, and to stay put means they will be robbed of the fruits of all their labor. They cannot win; but who does in relation the the Jews? They are like poison ivy or mice. They always come back.

Fido, I feel sorry for you, I really do.

[lovebush]

[quote="Angelicus"][q Quote: Israel has to deal with malcontent appeaser fifth columnists who constantly boohoo that we can't win, whine that these terrorists aren't being given "rights", and pine for the relase of terrorist scum we jail. You know, the same people who keep making comments in the floor of the Senate and the House, that have been shown time and time gain too give the terrorists aid and comfort.

I agree, it is alot harder to win a war when you have too contend with enemies from within like that, as well as fighting the enemy that is without.

But it can be done.)[/color]


And we just gave them control of the house and Senate.

[NovaPacifica]

Di wrote: There is so much hatred between Palestinians and Israelis at this point that logic simply goes out the window.

That is the only explanation I could come up with.