Political Crossfire Forums

californian conservative · Joined: 08 Jul 2006 Posts: 5932 Location: Michigan

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-ex-mideast3nov04,0,2270037.story?coll=la-home-headlines

Wow, this is amazing. Using techniques so you know that they can't fire on you because of civility. This is what made Vietnam, and what makes Iraq/Afganistan hard. When you have the terrorists hiding amongst civilians, you have a harder fight than just about anything.

Marzelvane · Joined: 19 Oct 2006 Posts: 93

shoot the b*****s

Fido · Joined: 16 Mar 2006 Posts: 3936

Did you see the film. It looked like a penguin stampede.

What you are missing, and the Israelis are missing, and G.W.Bush is clearly missing is that to fight them around women and children is to give them the choice of the battle field. To not give them the choice might mean there is no fight, but also no civilian casualties. If you want peace it is better to first stop the fight. If you have to fight because the field will not support the army than you have to fight on their terms. In either case, of collateral damage, or loss of terrain choice you have still lost the advantage of superior resources and training. You have to ask: How many will we have to kill to declare victory, and what will that victory amount to if we have only planted the seeds of more hatred and violence? The Israelis have not won, but perhaps that is not their object. Fighting Israel's war as Israel has taught us to fight it will not result in victory for us. Why then do we fight it? We cannot kill them all, and we cannot convert them all, and we cannot beat them all; so what is our point? We might command their resources, and isolate them to their lands while we rob them; but only at the expense of non stop conflict. Are we prepared for that? The Israelis find it possible because they are zealots. We cannot justify our own actions in the same fashion.

californian conservative · Joined: 08 Jul 2006 Posts: 5932 Location: Michigan

Fido wrote: Did you see the film. It looked like a penguin stampede.

What you are missing, and the Israelis are missing, and G.W.Bush is clearly missing is that to fight them around women and children is to give them the choice of the battle field. To not give them the choice might mean there is no fight, but also no civilian casualties. If you want peace it is better to first stop the fight. If you have to fight because the field will not support the army than you have to fight on their terms. In either case, of collateral damage, or loss of terrain choice you have still lost the advantage of superior resources and training. You have to ask: How many will we have to kill to declare victory, and what will that victory amount to if we have only planted the seeds of more hatred and violence? The Israelis have not won, but perhaps that is not their object. Fighting Israel's war as Israel has taught us to fight it will not result in victory for us. Why then do we fight it? We cannot kill them all, and we cannot convert them all, and we cannot beat them all; so what is our point? We might command their resources, and isolate them to their lands while we rob them; but only at the expense of non stop conflict. Are we prepared for that. The Israelis find it possible because they are zealots. We cannot justify our own actions in the same fashion.

Let the enemy dictate the battlefield? I don't think that the Hamas militants would have it any other way. They hide in civilian areas while they shoot rockets into Israel. That is their choice of a battlefield. When Israel decides to come after them, they get women to hide amongst so they can run away to fire even more rockets into Israel when the army isn't there. Given a choice Hamas will NEVER go in an open battle against Israel, NEVER. That is what makes them deadly.

johnflesh · Joined: 16 Jul 2006 Posts: 503 Location: Texas

I don't understand why women would support the way of life that they must live, as second class citizens if even that. And they put their lives in front of flying bullets to protect it. Either Israel is THAT wrong (in their eyes) to make someone do that, or they have no sense of their own freedom. I think it is both.

Di · Joined: 30 Aug 2004 Posts: 1102 Location: Northern Calif

There is so much hatred between Palestinians and Israelis at this point that logic simply goes out the window. However, we shouldn't forget that the Israelis kept their part of the bargain, expelling their own people forceably and handing Gaza over to Palestinian rule with the agreement that Palestinians would police the militants among them and stop the attacks on Israel. That quite simply didn't happen. Rockets still rain on Israel from Gaza, and the militants boldly murdered several Israeli soldiers on Israeli soil, then kidnapped another whom they have never returned. Peace cannot occur so long as agreements are as worthless as used toilet paper.

That said, I can't shed tears for civilians gunned down trying to shield the armed militants who were doing their own gunning-down. *shrug* You play ball with a hand grenade, you'll probably lose an arm.

Angelicus · Joined: 04 Apr 2006 Posts: 4678

Fido wrote: Did you see the film. It looked like a penguin stampede.

What you are missing, and the Israelis are missing, and G.W.Bush is clearly missing is that to fight them around women and children is to give them the choice of the battle field. To not give them the choice might mean there is no fight, but also no civilian casualties. If you want peace it is better to first stop the fight.

(Tell that to the terrorists, they began, and continue this fight.)

If you have to fight because the field will not support the army than you have to fight on their terms. In either case, of collateral damage, or loss of terrain choice you have still lost the advantage of superior resources and training.

(Thats complete nonsense)

You have to ask: How many will we have to kill to declare victory, and what will that victory amount to if we have only planted the seeds of more hatred and violence? The Israelis have not won, but perhaps that is not their object. Fighting Israel's war as Israel has taught us to fight it will not result in victory for us. Why then do we fight it? We cannot kill them all, and we cannot convert them all, and we cannot beat them all; so what is our point?

(Actually yes we can kill them all, provided we have the backbone and political will to do so.)

We might command their resources, and isolate them to their lands while we rob them; but only at the expense of non stop conflict. Are we prepared for that? The Israelis find it possible because they are zealots. We cannot justify our own actions in the same fashion.

(Since when is buying "resources", that someone else is selling "robbing" them? And the problem the Israelis have is the same one we have. Israel has to deal with malcontent appeaser fifth columnists who constantly boohoo that we can't win, whine that these terrorists aren't being given "rights", and pine for the relase of terrorist scum we jail. You know, the same people who keep making comments in the floor of the Senate and the House, that have been shown time and time gain too give the terrorists aid and comfort.

I agree, it is alot harder to win a war when you have too contend with enemies from within like that, as well as fighting the enemy that is without.

But it can be done.)

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 8281 Location: Petah Tikva

Quote: The Israelis have not won, but perhaps that is not their object. Fighting Israel's war as Israel has taught us to fight it will not result in victory for us. Why then do we fight it?

It is a war that cannot be won outright, but Israel has been winning achievments. The main Palestinian threat that existed in the 70's and 80's and early 90's has been crushed. The fall of the PLO's strength in Lebanon led to that and thus to the end of the major Palestinian armed forces and their ability to raid our towns, commit massacres, and attack us abroad. You judge our sucess with what you have witnessed today, but you also have to judge it through the whole timeline. Israel is safer then it has ever been, and the Palestinian armed groups weaker then they have ever been. They have enormous struggles in sending suicide bombers, they cannot send gunmen into our towns anylonger, and they are reduced to constantly weaker weapons and attacks as they have been over time.

It is not a war you can win outright and violence will smolder until peace is truley brought to the table. But you can do your utmost to secure your peoples safety and your countries safety.

Snake · Joined: 10 Oct 2006 Posts: 21776 Location: e-Thuggin

This is an instance where one of these:

comes in handy.

bunny · Joined: 14 Oct 2006 Posts: 584

Quote: Dozens of Palestinian gunmen holed up in a mosque ringed by Israeli troops and tanks escaped today after the Israelis opened fire toward a group of women who were rushing toward the shrine to serve as human shields. Two of the women were killed on the third day of fighting in the Gaza Strip town of Beit Hanoun.

Above is the opening paragraph from the link provided. Now, this mosque is surrounded by the IDF. A group of women are walking towards the Mosque, when teh IDF opened fire upon them, killing two.

Note: they were running towards the shrine, where it is pressumed they were to act as human shields. before they were able to achieve this, the IDF fired upon them.

This is not a case of human shielding, this is a case of the IDF firing upon a group of women, targeting civilians.

Quote: The dramatic end to the 15-hour standoff was a setback for Israeli forces that had stormed the town Wednesday to root out stockpiles of crude Kassam rockets and the militants who launch them into Israel.

Note: The IDF is acting with impunity, summarily attacking places of worship, acting illegally!

Quote:
About 50 veiled women approached the shrine on foot on a wide street, shouting at the Israeli soldiers to leave Gaza. The soldiers turned from the mosque and opened fire

Here it is again, women "approaching a shrine", "The soldiers turned from the mosque and opened fire".

This is a clear case of targeting civilians

Source

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 8281 Location: Petah Tikva

Bunny I am almost certain it is against Forum rules to post identical posts in two seperate forums, I have already made a lengthy response to your other identical post in ME forum.

bunny · Joined: 14 Oct 2006 Posts: 584

superskippy wrote: Bunny I am almost certain it is against Forum rules to post identical posts in two seperate forums, I have already made a lengthy response to your other identical post in ME forum.

O. If so my bad... I did change a few words, though, actually... but yeah, ok.

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 8281 Location: Petah Tikva

No problam bunny.

Fido · Joined: 16 Mar 2006 Posts: 3936

californian conservative wrote: Fido wrote: Did you see the film. It looked like a penguin stampede.

What you are missing, and the Israelis are missing, and G.W.Bush is clearly missing is that to fight them around women and children is to give them the choice of the battle field. To not give them the choice might mean there is no fight, but also no civilian casualties. If you want peace it is better to first stop the fight. If you have to fight because the field will not support the army than you have to fight on their terms. In either case, of collateral damage, or loss of terrain choice you have still lost the advantage of superior resources and training. You have to ask: How many will we have to kill to declare victory, and what will that victory amount to if we have only planted the seeds of more hatred and violence? The Israelis have not won, but perhaps that is not their object. Fighting Israel's war as Israel has taught us to fight it will not result in victory for us. Why then do we fight it? We cannot kill them all, and we cannot convert them all, and we cannot beat them all; so what is our point? We might command their resources, and isolate them to their lands while we rob them; but only at the expense of non stop conflict. Are we prepared for that. The Israelis find it possible because they are zealots. We cannot justify our own actions in the same fashion.

Let the enemy dictate the battlefield? I don't think that the Hamas militants would have it any other way. They hide in civilian areas while they shoot rockets into Israel. That is their choice of a battlefield. When Israel decides to come after them, they get women to hide amongst so they can run away to fire even more rockets into Israel when the army isn't there. Given a choice Hamas will NEVER go in an open battle against Israel, NEVER. That is what makes them deadly.

So? They pass the intelligence test and don't fight a battle they can only lose. We should do the same.

bunny · Joined: 14 Oct 2006 Posts: 584

superskippy wrote: No problam bunny.

The link was from this thread, and this is where I originally posted it.

Though, the post I copied & edited into the ME forum, is surely more heated.

Fido · Joined: 16 Mar 2006 Posts: 3936

superskippy wrote: Quote: The Israelis have not won, but perhaps that is not their object. Fighting Israel's war as Israel has taught us to fight it will not result in victory for us. Why then do we fight it?

It is a war that cannot be won outright, but Israel has been winning achievments. The main Palestinian threat that existed in the 70's and 80's and early 90's has been crushed. The fall of the PLO's strength in Lebanon led to that and thus to the end of the major Palestinian armed forces and their ability to raid our towns, commit massacres, and attack us abroad. You judge our sucess with what you have witnessed today, but you also have to judge it through the whole timeline. Israel is safer then it has ever been, and the Palestinian armed groups weaker then they have ever been. They have enormous struggles in sending suicide bombers, they cannot send gunmen into our towns anylonger, and they are reduced to constantly weaker weapons and attacks as they have been over time.

It is not a war you can win outright and violence will smolder until peace is truley brought to the table. But you can do your utmost to secure your peoples safety and your countries safety.

It is not a war that can be won against a people who cannot be beat. Victory means peace, but if the spoils can be enjoyed short of victory why bother. If you plan to take more later when you have gobbled up what you just took then why peace, and why victory. Genocide does not require victory but death. Israel knows it can kill endlessly so long as it does not outrage the world. It can have the benefit of the place so long as the water holds up, and when it is gone Israel will be a desert for both Jew and palestinian. I believe Israel is happy with the progress. I think they are hoping for our war to expand into Iran. In any case they have fought very little and have much to show for it. They can be content with that I am sure. Iraq is wasted, and Lebanon is wasted, and Syria is definitely playing defense.

Fido · Joined: 16 Mar 2006 Posts: 3936

Quote: [quote="Angelicus"][quote="Fido"]Did you see the film. It looked like a penguin stampede.

What you are missing, and the Israelis are missing, and G.W.Bush is clearly missing is that to fight them around women and children is to give them the choice of the battle field. To not give them the choice might mean there is no fight, but also no civilian casualties. If you want peace it is better to first stop the fight.

(Tell that to the terrorists, they began, and continue this fight.)

Whether they began it or not, to go there and fight them in their land and in their cities is a mistake only made necessary by our desire to own their oil.

Quote: If you have to fight because the field will not support the army than you have to fight on their terms. In either case, of collateral damage, or loss of terrain choice you have still lost the advantage of superior resources and training.

(Thats complete nonsense)

Prove it. We are going to give up and come home because we look at the bottom line and the death toll. Taking the place was nothing, and keeping the place is everything, and we are going to walk away months and possibly years before we might have had a settled government because we busted their army when it was all that was holding the place together. Then to be in their homes and their cities and having to supply our troops is exactly the situation T.E. Lawrence set for the Turks. Then all you have to do is spread them thin and take out their (our) lines of communication. We are playing to lose, and have given up a chance at a draw.

Quote: You have to ask: How many will we have to kill to declare victory, and what will that victory amount to if we have only planted the seeds of more hatred and violence? The Israelis have not won, but perhaps that is not their object. Fighting Israel's war as Israel has taught us to fight it will not result in victory for us. Why then do we fight it? We cannot kill them all, and we cannot convert them all, and we cannot beat them all; so what is our point?

(Actually yes we can kill them all, provided we have the backbone and political will to do so.)

Find it. I am not giving my permission for that sort of non sense from my government.

[quote] Quote: We might command their resources, and isolate them to their lands while we rob them; but only at the expense of non stop conflict. Are we prepared for that? The Israelis find it possible because they are zealots. We cannot justify our own actions in the same fashion.

[color=blue](Since when is buying "resources", that someone else is selling "robbing" them? And the problem the Israelis have is the same one we have. Israel has to deal with malcontent appeaser fifth columnists who constantly boohoo that we can't win, whine that these terrorists aren't being given "rights", and pine for the relase of terrorist scum we jail. You know, the same people who keep making comments in the floor of the Senate and the House, that have been shown time and time gain too give the terrorists aid and comfort.

I agree, it is alot harder to win a war when you have too contend with enemies from within like that, as well as fighting the enemy that is without.

Buying resources when they cannot refuse to sell is like calling rape love. Try to remember that even if we steal what is theirs, we still have to sell our products to them, unless we are planning on killing them all. But like Lincoln said of the skunks: I shot one and he put up such a stink about it I decided to let the rest go. We are going to find some reason to let the skunks go. We didn't have a real good excuse to go there. I hope in going we will realize our best defense is a secure border, and that the best defense is a defense, and not an offense. We should learn from the art of war that the best weapon is an understanding of the enemy. All we had was a misunderstanding of the enemy pushed to its outside limit.

Snake · Joined: 10 Oct 2006 Posts: 21776 Location: e-Thuggin

This right here will solve the Isreal Palestine problem. Both sides need to STFU, Isreal needs to recognise Palestine as a soverign nation, no if's and's or but's, Hamas/Hizbu'llah need to stop spreading the death to this and that propaganda, Both need to talk it out, using words not bullets to get their message across, in an open forum so the entire world can hear each individual voice, and they both need to get along with each other and come to some goddamned understanding. This sh*t's been going on for what? 40-60 f*cking years? Come on people, WTF?!

Margo · Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 11:09 pm Post subject:

The culture of hatred and lack of value towards human life is so indoctrinated into these people from birth, that I wasn't surprised by this latest cowardly act. Sickening.

Margo · Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 11:12 pm Post subject:

Kamel wrote: This right here will solve the Isreal Palestine problem. Both sides need to STFU, Isreal needs to recognise Palestine as a soverign nation, no if's and's or but's, Hamas/Hizbu'llah need to stop spreading the death to this and that propaganda, Both need to talk it out, using words not bullets to get their message across, in an open forum so the entire world can hear each individual voice, and they both need to get along with each other and come to some goddamned understanding. This sh*t's been going on for what? 40-60 f*cking years? Come on people, WTF?!

Talking??...Never going to happen. The ultimate desire for Hamas and Hezbollah is for Israel to blown off the map. They will never recognize Israel's right to exist. Israel has made far more concessions, tolerated far more hate in the past 60 some years to back down. I predict they'll all eventually kill themselves and drag us down with them if they can.