Political Crossfire Forums

[John]

Quote:
Why should a Jew wonder about that? How to prove the Messiah's genealogy is G-d's problem. Or Messiah's. Let them deal with it. Why do Jews need that headache?

That's actually a very mature answer.

[The Comrade]

Vexillum wrote: The Comrade wrote: the reason there is no temple has to do with the dome of the rock. it's built right on top of the temple mount.

That's a complication, not a reason.


semantics?


call it what you want. it's not getting built.

[Duchifas]

John wrote: Quote:
Why should a Jew wonder about that? How to prove the Messiah's genealogy is G-d's problem. Or Messiah's. Let them deal with it. Why do Jews need that headache?

That's actually a very mature answer.

It actually is.

Our mission is to improve the world and to follow G-d's commandments. In the present.

While there is nothing wrong with pondering about some future events and speculating about the meaning of vaguely worded prophesies, it is not the wisest use of our [limited] time in this world.

To the best of my ability, I try to do what G-d told me -- mitzvot. That's my business. The genealogical proofs are G-d's business. When He decides to send Moshiach, I am certain that He will figure out how to prove things conclusively and convincingly. I trust Him.

Therefore, I spend very little time wondering how we will figure out Moshiach's genealogy. There are way more important things to do.

[Vexillum]

The Comrade wrote: Vexillum wrote: The Comrade wrote: the reason there is no temple has to do with the dome of the rock. it's built right on top of the temple mount.

That's a complication, not a reason.


semantics?


call it what you want. it's not getting built.

From a secular perspective, it may be semantics. But, from a religious perspective, it's because God doesn't want there to be a Temple. Duchifas offers the Jewish perspective, "We been misbehavin'." The Christian perspective is because the Temple is obsolete.

Maybe it's my bias :-D But, I think the preponderance of the evidence is on the Christian side. 2000 years without a temple, starting within a generation after Jesus was crucified, exactly as Jesus prophesied.

I don't think Jews are misbehavin' so bad. :wink: They misbehaved before, in OT times, and still had their Temple. They did lose the Temple once before, but it was rebuilt within the life time of some of the people who saw it destroyed.

[Vexillum]

Duchifas wrote: Quote: or how will the Messiah prove his genealogy through Judah considering Jews lost their genealogy records 2000 years ago.

Why should a Jew wonder about that? How to prove the Messiah's genealogy is G-d's problem. Or Messiah's. Let them deal with it. Why do Jews need that headache?

The subject of this thread is, is Jesus the Messiah?

I think a Jew ought to wonder given that Jews kept genealogy records from the time of Judah (and before) until the time of Jesus. Given that the Messiah was to be in the line of Judah and given that these records were kept, it could be expected that the purpose of these records was to help establish the identity of the messiah. Of course, a post-Jesus Jew has no choice to expect the Messiah to deal with the situation in some unknown way. But, for someone weighing evidence, the end of the records and the timing that those records were ceased points to Jesus being the Messiah. And, the Gospels do establish Jesus' relationship to Judah through genealogy.

[Duchifas]

Quote: I think a Jew ought to wonder given that Jews kept genealogy records from the time of Judah (and before) until the time of Jesus.

That is not quite accurate. I am not sure what loss of records you are referring to. Jews have always kept their genealogical records with some degree of accuracy. That's the reason we know today who is a Kohen (or Levi), which goes all the way back to Aaron. That's from waaaay before Jesus.

If you are somehow implying that the destruction of Jerusalem somehow meant that Jews suddenly forgot their family tree, that seems an unfounded assumption. I am not aware of any reason why that would be so. During that period there were millions of Jews living in the Diaspora, who were unaffected by the wars in Judea. There is no reason to assume that they would somehow lose their genealogical records just because the Romans were pillaging Judea.

Of course, when you have a national history that spans 3,000 years, punctuated by many nasty episodes, a consistent loss of some genealogical information is expected. But I am not sure why Jewish genealogical records would somehow cease to exist when Jesus came on the scene. There are plenty Jewish families at the present time who can trace their lineage all the way back to the Biblical times. Many trace their lineage to King David and will have a family reunion next year:

http://www.davidicdynasty.org/index.php

So I am not sure where you are getting your info from.

Quote: Given that the Messiah was to be in the line of Judah and given that these records were kept, it could be expected that the purpose of these records was to help establish the identity of the messiah.

That's quite a logical leap. There are plenty of purposes of keeping genealogical records that had nothing to do with Messiah, e.g., land ownership, inheritance, historical value, etc.

Quote: Of course, a post-Jesus Jew has no choice to expect the Messiah to deal with the situation in some unknown way. But, for someone weighing evidence, the end of the records and the timing that those records were ceased points to Jesus being the Messiah.

See above.

Quote: And, the Gospels do establish Jesus' relationship to Judah through genealogy.

The relationship of Messiah has to be not merely to Judah, but to King David, via the male line. After numerous conversations on this forum (which there is no need to repeat), I am convinced that the Gospels, even assuming they are authoritative on the subject, do not establish the requisite relationship.

[Vexillum]

Duchifas wrote: Of course, when you have a national history that spans 3,000 years, punctuated by many nasty episodes, a consistent loss of some genealogical information is expected. But I am not sure why Jewish genealogical records would somehow cease to exist when Jesus came on the scene. There are plenty Jewish families at the present time who can trace their lineage all the way back to the Biblical times. Many trace their lineage to King David and will have a family reunion next year:

http://www.davidicdynasty.org/index.php

I don't know how much confidence I'd have in comparing my last name to a list of jewish names. For one thing, back the Bible times, Jews didn't even have last names or family names. These family names were adopted in the past several centuries, often by converts.

Logically, practically everyone alive today is an ancestor of David, thanks to race mixing. So, even if you could establish a tentative link to David, it's rather meaningless. In the Pentateuch there is a high standard of racial purity whereby someone of mixed race isn't allowed in the assembly of God for 10 generations. I wouldn't say that necessarily applies to the Messiah, but without some standard, the idea of someone being an ancestor of David is mockery.

In the first century, when the Temple was destroyed, along with Judea, many of the genealogy records were lost. I might even suggest that being scattered for many generations is an irreversible condition, where only nominal Jews can be brought together.

Quote: That's quite a logical leap. There are plenty of purposes of keeping genealogical records that had nothing to do with Messiah, e.g., land ownership, inheritance, historical value, etc.

Obviously, keeping records has many benefits.

[Duchifas]

Vexillum wrote: Duchifas wrote: Of course, when you have a national history that spans 3,000 years, punctuated by many nasty episodes, a consistent loss of some genealogical information is expected. But I am not sure why Jewish genealogical records would somehow cease to exist when Jesus came on the scene. There are plenty Jewish families at the present time who can trace their lineage all the way back to the Biblical times. Many trace their lineage to King David and will have a family reunion next year:

http://www.davidicdynasty.org/index.php

I don't know how much confidence I'd have in comparing my last name to a list of jewish names. For one thing, back the Bible times, Jews didn't even have last names or family names. These family names were adopted in the past several centuries, often by converts.

Clearly, the families maintained the genealogy by first names prior to common usage of last names. Last names are used there presently just because they are the preferred way of identification.

Quote: Logically, practically everyone alive today is an ancestor of David, thanks to race mixing. So, even if you could establish a tentative link to David, it's rather meaningless. In the Pentateuch there is a high standard of racial purity whereby someone of mixed race isn't allowed in the assembly of God for 10 generations. I wouldn't say that necessarily applies to the Messiah, but without some standard, the idea of someone being an ancestor of David is mockery.

If needed, the standard is there. Jewish people have preserved the history and tradition, written and oral, quite accurately. Thus, there is little foundation for the assumption that at some point in history, all the Jews just had a collective case of amnesia and forgot their family trees. Yes, clearly not all Jews can trace their roots that far. But many can, and many of those can trace it to Davidic dynasty.

Quote: In the first century, when the Temple was destroyed, along with Judea, many of the genealogy records were lost. I might even suggest that being scattered for many generations is an irreversible condition, where only nominal Jews can be brought together.

Yes, many records were lost. Messiah would only need to trace his line, however, not everyone's line. Until it is established that ALL the records of the ENTIRE Davidic dynasty were lost, let's agree that your assumption is far from conclusive.

[Mailech]

Vexillum wrote: The Comrade wrote: Vexillum wrote: The Comrade wrote: the reason there is no temple has to do with the dome of the rock. it's built right on top of the temple mount.

That's a complication, not a reason.


semantics?


call it what you want. it's not getting built.

From a secular perspective, it may be semantics. But, from a religious perspective, it's because God doesn't want there to be a Temple. Duchifas offers the Jewish perspective, "We been misbehavin'." The Christian perspective is because the Temple is obsolete.

Maybe it's my bias :-D But, I think the preponderance of the evidence is on the Christian side. 2000 years without a temple, starting within a generation after Jesus was crucified, exactly as Jesus prophesied.

I don't think Jews are misbehavin' so bad. :wink: They misbehaved before, in OT times, and still had their Temple. They did lose the Temple once before, but it was rebuilt within the life time of some of the people who saw it destroyed.

Then what about Ezekial Temple?

Also if G-d can create the universe I am sure that He can find some way of proving that the Moshiach is of the Davidic line. Say by some prophet telling us so?

[jeremiah jones]

mODULAR mAN wrote: Why did God need a human sacrifice to decide this? (And then make it sound like it was a tremendous sacrifice, but he knew he was going to resurrect himself?)

The actions of this character are not worthy of worship. He should be, well, crucified.
It was man, not God, who required sacrifice.
Jesus said it is finished.

[_Locke_]

Hey, I went to that link u gave us to the comandments and wow I skimed though them and wow I have to say that most of those seem really dumb...

Quote: 162. Not to marry non-Jews Deut. 7:3

Quote: 545. The courts must carry out the death penalty of stoning Deut. 22:24
546. The courts must carry out the death penalty of burning Lev. 20:14
547. The courts must carry out the death penalty of the sword Ex. 21:20
548. The courts must carry out the death penalty of strangulation Lev. 20:10
549. The courts must hang those stoned for blasphemy or idolatry Deut. 21:22

Quote: 553. The court must give lashes to the wrongdoer Ex. 25:2
554. The court must not exceed the prescribed number of lashes Deut. 25:3

Quote: 610. Not to panic and retreat during battle Deut. 20:3

Quote: 45. Not to be afraid of killing the false prophet Deut. 18:22


and thats just some, I mean times have changed, we are smarter[/code]

[cap'n queasy]

Mailech wrote: Vexillum wrote: The Comrade wrote: Vexillum wrote: The Comrade wrote: the reason there is no temple has to do with the dome of the rock. it's built right on top of the temple mount.

That's a complication, not a reason.


semantics?


call it what you want. it's not getting built.

From a secular perspective, it may be semantics. But, from a religious perspective, it's because God doesn't want there to be a Temple. Duchifas offers the Jewish perspective, "We been misbehavin'." The Christian perspective is because the Temple is obsolete.

Maybe it's my bias :-D But, I think the preponderance of the evidence is on the Christian side. 2000 years without a temple, starting within a generation after Jesus was crucified, exactly as Jesus prophesied.

I don't think Jews are misbehavin' so bad. :wink: They misbehaved before, in OT times, and still had their Temple. They did lose the Temple once before, but it was rebuilt within the life time of some of the people who saw it destroyed.

Then what about Ezekial Temple?

Also if G-d can create the universe I am sure that He can find some way of proving that the Moshiach is of the Davidic line. Say by some prophet telling us so?


A Christian would say that John the Baptist such a prophet.

[Mailech]

_Locke_ wrote: Hey, I went to that link u gave us to the comandments and wow I skimed though them and wow I have to say that most of those seem really dumb...

Quote: 162. Not to marry non-Jews Deut. 7:3

Quote: 545. The courts must carry out the death penalty of stoning Deut. 22:24
546. The courts must carry out the death penalty of burning Lev. 20:14
547. The courts must carry out the death penalty of the sword Ex. 21:20
548. The courts must carry out the death penalty of strangulation Lev. 20:10
549. The courts must hang those stoned for blasphemy or idolatry Deut. 21:22

Quote: 553. The court must give lashes to the wrongdoer Ex. 25:2
554. The court must not exceed the prescribed number of lashes Deut. 25:3

Quote: 610. Not to panic and retreat during battle Deut. 20:3

Quote: 45. Not to be afraid of killing the false prophet Deut. 18:22


and thats just some, I mean times have changed, we are smarter[/code]

Yea I know, ideas like punishing people for commiting a crime, keeping ones faith and not to punish excessively, those are so arcane.

[Mailech]

cap'n queasy wrote: A Christian would say that John the Baptist such a prophet.

If only he and Matthew agreed.

[cap'n queasy]

Mailech wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: A Christian would say that John the Baptist such a prophet.

If only he and Matthew agreed.

Quote: Matthew 17:13 Then the disciples understood that He had spoken to them about John the Baptist.

[Saracen]

Sorry for butting in unannounced, but one of the most heated debates I have seen here on PCF is the debate against Jews by some Christians here on this forum that Jesus is going to be their Messiah. I just want to say something, if I may.

From what I've seen, the Jews believe that the Messiah is yet to arrive. Concerning oneself with the preoccupation over who the Messiah is going to be seems senseless to the average Jewish person (save for a Messianic Jew, perhaps?). While I do believe that Jesus was the Messiah (though in a different sense than in Christianity), I see reason for Jews not to believe or at least not to put so much effort into identifying the Messiah's identity. The reason might be that Jews are more concerned with doing what God told them in following the 10 Commandments, believe in Him, and await the coming of the Messiah with patience. Summing all this up, this is in essence a virtuous notion: believing in God and what He sent down, and doing what God commanded them, the Jews, to do in this worldly life. I'm not going to bring Islam or my beliefs in this issue because this debate is over Judaism and Christianity and whether Jesus was the Messiah of both religions.

Just my 2 cents...

[Mailech]

Saracen wrote: Sorry for butting in unannounced, but one of the most heated debates I have seen here on PCF is the debate against Jews by some Christians here on this forum that Jesus is going to be their Messiah. I just want to say something, if I may.

From what I've seen, the Jews believe that the Messiah is yet to arrive. Concerning oneself with the preoccupation over who the Messiah is going to be seems senseless to the average Jewish person (save for a Messianic Jew, perhaps?). While I do believe that Jesus was the Messiah (though in a different sense than in Christianity), I see reason for Jews not to believe or at least not to put so much effort into identifying the Messiah's identity. The reason might be that Jews are more concerned with doing what God told them in following the 10 Commandments, believe in Him, and await the coming of the Messiah with patience. Summing all this up, this is in essence a virtuous notion: believing in God and what He sent down, and doing what God commanded them, the Jews, to do in this worldly life. I'm not going to bring Islam or my beliefs in this issue because this debate is over Judaism and Christianity and whether Jesus was the Messiah of both religions.

Just my 2 cents...

That is pretty much the idea.

[Mailech]

Mailech wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: A Christian would say that John the Baptist such a prophet.

If only he and Matthew agreed.

I am sorry I was refering to Matthew and Luke, not John.

[John]

Mailech wrote: Mailech wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: A Christian would say that John the Baptist such a prophet.

If only he and Matthew agreed.

I am sorry I was refering to Matthew and Luke, not John.

What do they not agree on?

[mODULAR mAN]

John wrote: Mailech wrote: Mailech wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: A Christian would say that John the Baptist such a prophet.

If only he and Matthew agreed.

I am sorry I was refering to Matthew and Luke, not John.

What do they not agree on?

Why don't you tell us?