Political Crossfire Forums

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 15548 Location: On Earth

programmusic wrote: Saracen wrote:
Look. Both sides use it.

That is incorrect

I proved otherwise.

programmusic · Joined: 22 Apr 2006 Posts: 909

that is also incorrect. the article you linked didn't even name arab villages that the bomb factories were near. Let alone what other jewish villages were nearby.

Meanwhile hamas specificially calls on women to line up as human shields.

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 7752 Location: Petah Tikva

Quote: Look. Both sides use it. I'm not condoning it. However, what I'm trying to say is that we shouldn't blame those who went in the way, but blame those who fired the shots, both Israeli and Palestinian.

So the aircraft factories outside of London were Human Shields during the Blitz? Honestly these are Factories open enormous factories attached near Nazerath. Anyone with a guided weapon would have no chance of hitting civilians if they fired it at the factory. There is no comparison to this and a rocket factory in the basement of a Gaza Apartment building.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 15548 Location: On Earth

superskippy wrote: Quote: Look. Both sides use it. I'm not condoning it. However, what I'm trying to say is that we shouldn't blame those who went in the way, but blame those who fired the shots, both Israeli and Palestinian.

So the aircraft factories outside of London were Human Shields during the Blitz? Honestly these are Factories open enormous factories attached near Nazerath. Anyone with a guided weapon would have no chance of hitting civilians if they fired it at the factory. There is no comparison to this and a rocket factory in the basement of a Gaza Apartment building.

Doesn't make the apartment building a target. If you see a fly on the face of an innocent child, you don't kill the innocent child along with it.

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 7752 Location: Petah Tikva

It does make the apartment building a target though, it becomes a dual use military target under law. It has both militants, military infrastructre, and arms producing capacity. That is why we so often kill civilians in our airstrikes the distinction between the two is nearly impossible to make due to their duel use capacity.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 15548 Location: On Earth

superskippy wrote: It does make the apartment building a target though, it becomes a dual use military target under law. It has both militants, military infrastructre, and arms producing capacity. That is why we so often kill civilians in our airstrikes the distinction between the two is nearly impossible to make due to their duel use capacity.

Yet, many of the apartments that were hit during the shellings did not have such factories.

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 7752 Location: Petah Tikva

I think I'm confused what exactly are we talking about now? I thought we were debating in the abstract is there some specefic incident your referring to?

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 15548 Location: On Earth

superskippy wrote: I think I'm confused what exactly are we talking about now? I thought we were debating in the abstract is there some specefic incident your referring to?

I was referring to the human shield argument. Surely, not all the civilians who died were "human shields"?

Venom · Joined: 06 Sep 2006 Posts: 807

Quote: I was referring to the human shield argument. Surely, not all the civilians who died were "human shields"?
If women can running to the call of Hamas to protect these gunmen, all involved in that march are human shields, and more so than that, they are actually combatants helping enemy forces to move around, thus assisting their attacks.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 15548 Location: On Earth

Venom wrote: Quote: I was referring to the human shield argument. Surely, not all the civilians who died were "human shields"?
If women can running to the call of Hamas to protect these gunmen, all involved in that march are human shields, and more so than that, they are actually combatants helping enemy forces to move around, thus assisting their attacks.

No. If innocent settlers get caught in the crossfire of Palestinian gunmen fighting Israeli soldiers, they're not really "innocent"...

...that is, of course, following your logic.

Venom · Joined: 06 Sep 2006 Posts: 807

Quote: No. If innocent settlers get caught in the crossfire of Palestinian gunmen fighting Israeli soldiers, they're not really "innocent"...

...that is, of course, following your logic.
How?
I clearly state that the women came running to the call of Hamas... that isn't quite "caught" in the crossfire when you run into it.. :lol:
So if a innocent settler was called to protect Palestinian gunmen or even Israeli soldiers, he/she would no longer be innocent but rather a active combatant.

Following your logic.... A person that willing stands infront of a sniper in an attempt to prevent counter fire, is completely innocent.

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 7752 Location: Petah Tikva

Quote: I was referring to the human shield argument. Surely, not all the civilians who died were "human shields"?

For the Mosque Raid?

starwest · Joined: 03 Nov 2006 Posts: 104

These women made the decision to be soldiers, just because they are women does not make them less of a threat. Our women soldiers don't just put themselves in the face of enemy fire and expect to be spared.

The gunmen in the Mosque had attacked, destroyed and murdered other people, and as the roops got closer, they called their back-up squad, after all they are only women and the holy scriptures see them as lower then men...

So these women went to the rescue, with burkas and ammunition, they staged a riot, and then helped the male soldiers escape,

here is the situation-

Quote: Around 200 women then left the main protest to march on and enter the mosque around 700 metres (yards) away to collect the gunmen, before walking out again, cloaking the fighters in the middle of their heavily veiled ranks.

None of the gunmen could be seen amid the dozens of women, who were dressed for the most part from head to toe in black in the religiously conservative Gaza Strip.

Throughout the rescue bid, Israeli helicopter gunships opened fire -- not specifically at the women, but intending to scare them and separate their ranks, but without success. Two women were wounded, medics said.

A source in Hamas confirmed that its armed wing had orchestrated what he called a "complex security operation" to secure the release of the besieged fighters.

The women and fighters they were protecting ran as far as Izbat Beit Hanun, an area northwest of the town not being occupied by Israeli army.

"Hundreds of us entered the mosque and surrounded the resistance fighters to protect them," said one of the women, 21-year-old Nidaa al-Radih.

One rescued fighter was triumphant. "We are free, we are free!" he shouted before running off to safety.

Elderly Palestinians and children are still holed up inside the mosque, where the compound wall and entrance gate have been partially destroyed by Israeli shellfire and bulldozers, witnesses said.

An army spokeswoman said that large demonstrations of around 3,000 people, mostly women, had been orchestrated by Hamas in order to provide cover for gunmen wanting to escape from the mosque.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20061103/wl_mideast_afp/mideastconflictgaza_061103113323

why are these women, who were acting exactly like soldiers, whinning about casualties, when they were protecting murderers...

A little hypocritical isn't it???????????

starwest · Joined: 03 Nov 2006 Posts: 104

[url]More than 50 veiled women, answering an appeal broadcast on local radio, worked their way between Israeli forces and the mosque, eventually allowing around 60 gunmen, who had been holed up inside for more than 15 hours, to escape. [/url]
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061104/ts_nm/mideast_dc

Now WHY were these gunman Holed up in the Mosque? Well the day before they had murdered two civilian women who they used as human shields, and had fired missles and rounds of ammunitions at peacekeepers and well as troops...destroying the latest peacekeeping talks.

These women were in fact hurting our efforts to help get peace in the middle-east...it really is disgusting the double standard that is played continuously. It is fine to murder the OTHER SIDES' women and children, yet it isn't OKAY if it is THEIR women THAT ARE IN FACT by action being deceptive, covert, undercover soldiers that are harming the western efforts to bring a lasting peace to the area.

This effort to make out that these were VICTIMS and wrongfully killed is wrong. It is our soldiers that are being wrongfully deceived...

bunny · Joined: 14 Oct 2006 Posts: 584

programmusic wrote: that is also incorrect.

Link to the IDF using Human Shields & the history of the legallities behind it

bunny · Joined: 14 Oct 2006 Posts: 584

Quote: Dozens of Palestinian gunmen holed up in a mosque ringed by Israeli troops and tanks escaped today after the Israelis opened fire toward a group of women who were rushing toward the shrine to serve as human shields. Two of the women were killed on the third day of fighting in the Gaza Strip town of Beit Hanoun.

Above is the opening paragraph from the link provided below. Now, this mosque is surrounded by the IDF. A group of women are walking towards the Mosque, when teh IDF opened fire upon them, killing two.

Note: they were running towards the shrine, where it is pressumed they were to act as human shields. before they were able to achieve this, the IDF fired upon them.

This is not a case of human shielding, this is a case of the IDF firing upon a group of women, targeting civilians.

Quote: The dramatic end to the 15-hour standoff was a setback for Israeli forces that had stormed the town Wednesday to root out stockpiles of crude Kassam rockets and the militants who launch them into Israel.

Note: The IDF is acting with impunity, summarily attacking places of worship, acting illegally!

Quote:
About 50 veiled women approached the shrine on foot on a wide street, shouting at the Israeli soldiers to leave Gaza. The soldiers turned from the mosque and opened fire

Here it is again, women "approaching a shrine", "The soldiers turned from the mosque and opened fire".

This is a clear case of targeting civilians

Source

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 7752 Location: Petah Tikva

Quote: Above is the opening paragraph from the link provided below. Now, this mosque is surrounded by the IDF. A group of women are walking towards the Mosque, when teh IDF opened fire upon them, killing two.

Note: they were running towards the shrine, where it is pressumed they were to act as human shields. before they were able to achieve this, the IDF fired upon them.

Your own quoted line only makes me more certain we acted in the right to open fire. These woman rushed towards a siege and heavy gunfire for one purpose as they themselves have stated. We acted accordingly and unfortunatly we failed to stop most of the gunmen from escaping.

Quote: This is not a case of human shielding, this is a case of the IDF firing upon a group of women, targeting civilians.

The woman have made clear exactly what they did and you are arguing against their own words and actions, an untenable position to take.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6115950.stm

One of the women, Nahed Abou Harbiya, told the BBC Arabic Service the gunmen inside the mosque were given women's clothes to help them escape.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6112386.stm?ls

Now for their own words,

"We risked our lives to free our sons," Um Mohammed, a woman in her 40s, told the AFP news agency afterwards.

"All the women headed to the mosque to get the Palestinian resistance men... But the Israeli occupation forces were firing heavily at us with their machine guns and also threw stun grenades at us.

"We entered the mosque and indeed we got all the resistance men out and put female attire on them so that the Israeli occupation

They have in other statements consistantly made clear what their intention was and what they tried to do. They made the choice to thus become combatants and we had the choice to cut them down.

Quote: Note: The IDF is acting with impunity, summarily attacking places of worship, acting illegally!

Oh come off it, you dont have to try and justify every statement by tacking on "illegal" to end of it. There were scores of Gunmen using the Mosque as a base as Hamas acknowledges and they were engaging in a heavy firefight with the IDF.

Quote: This is a clear case of targeting civilians

The womans who's goals were clear, ceased to be civilians the moment they attempted action.

bunny · Joined: 14 Oct 2006 Posts: 584

superskippy wrote:

Your own quoted line only makes me more certain we acted in the right to open fire. These woman rushed towards a siege and heavy gunfire for one purpose as they themselves have stated. We acted accordingly and unfortunatly we failed to stop most of the gunmen from escaping.

They were rushing towards a stand off, there was no gunfire taking place between the mosque & IDF positions at the time, as the video shows.

So you are suggesting that by shooting women, you are acting in thier best interests, as you invade thier land, firing at thier house of God, and the people seeking refuge within.

superskippy wrote: The woman have made clear exactly what they did and you are arguing against their own words and actions, an untenable position to take.

These women, who rushed to save thier besieged men, by an invading force, is very noble.

superskippy wrote:
"We risked our lives to free our sons," Um Mohammed, a woman in her 40s, told the AFP news agency afterwards.

"All the women headed to the mosque to get the Palestinian resistance men... But the Israeli occupation forces were firing heavily at us with their machine guns and also threw stun grenades at us.

This is twisted!

They have not done anything, except run in a direction, and the IDF TURNED & FIRED at them. They had no chance to be human shields...

Again, it is Israel who is invading THIER land & Territory. And they are attacking a house of God.

superskippy wrote:
"We entered the mosque and indeed we got all the resistance men out and put female attire on them so that the Israeli occupation

Are you suggesting the Palestinian cannot defend themselves? Seems that everytime the try, against IDF forces, that have invaded thier land, they are labeled as terrorist.

superskippy wrote:
Oh come off it, you dont have to try and justify every statement by tacking on "illegal" to end of it. There were scores of Gunmen using the Mosque as a base as Hamas acknowledges and they were engaging in a heavy firefight with the IDF.

Dude, under what LEGAL ground is the IDF operating under within Gaza? Please enlighten me!

superskippy wrote: The womans who's goals were clear, ceased to be civilians the moment they attempted action.

At the point they were fired upon, it was not clear what thier objective was, they were simply moving in a direction, when the IDF "turned & fired" at them.

(jingoist)

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 7752 Location: Petah Tikva

Quote: They were rushing towards a stand off, there was no gunfire taking place between the mosque & IDF positions at the time, as the video shows.

So you are suggesting that by shooting women, you are acting in thier best interests, as you invade thier land, firing at thier house of God, and the people seeking refuge within.

Their own statements belie anything you could say on their behalf, they rushed forward in a wave to releive the siege of the Mosque. Indeed some entered the Mosque and did manage to spirit away some of the gunmen. The moment they became activily involved in a military operation their civilian status ceased. As for the people seeking refuge within... Even Hamas doesnt tow that line they have made very clear that they were militants. Hamas radio reported that all of the militants in the mosque escaped and were uninjured.

Quote: These women, who rushed to save thier besieged men, by an invading force, is very noble.

It is certaintly suicidal courage, I do not dispute that.

Quote: This is twisted!

Indeed it is, though we differ on why.

Quote: They have not done anything, except run in a direction, and the IDF TURNED & FIRED at them. They had no chance to be human shields...

They were attempting to free the gunmen inside as they themselves have said on multiple occasions. They succeded unfortunatly and mant militants did manage to flee the Mosque aided by the woman who made it inside and in the confusion.

Quote: Again, it is Israel who is invading THIER land & Territory. And they are attacking a house of God.

I dont care why they did it, once they became involved militarily they ceased to be civilians. They acted as a relief force and succeded as a relief force.

Quote: Are you suggesting the Palestinian cannot defend themselves? Seems that everytime the try, against IDF forces, that have invaded thier land, they are labeled as terrorist.

Good at last you have openly admitted that these men were not civilians and tacitly accepting that the woman engaged miltiarily when trying to free the besieged militants. Also I have consistantly called them militants as I do not ahve knowledge of any terrorist activities they may have committed.

Quote: Dude, under what LEGAL ground is the IDF operating under within Gaza? Please enlighten me!

In response to overt attacks from a hostile force.

Quote: At the point they were fired upon, it was not clear what thier objective was, they were simply moving in a direction, when the IDF "turned & fired" at them.

As the woman have said since they beginning they entered the Mosque to free the militants and indeed have proudly boasted to the world media of their success in doing so and in breaking through our cordon of the Mosque.

You cannot possibly still be claiming they were innocent woman protesting? The Woman dont say it, Hamas doesnt say it, the world media doesnt say it, the Palestinians arent saying it, and Israel isnt saying it.

bunny · Joined: 14 Oct 2006 Posts: 584

superskippy wrote:

Their own statements belie anything you could say on their behalf, they rushed forward in a wave to releive the siege of the Mosque. Indeed some entered the Mosque and did manage to spirit away some of the gunmen.

The fact remains, that at the time, there was no way for this to be known by the IDF. For all intensive purposes, the women were moving in a direction, when they were fired upon by the IDF who "turned" to do so...

superskippy wrote: The moment they became activily involved in a military operation their civilian status ceased. As for the people seeking refuge within... Even Hamas doesnt tow that line they have made very clear that they were militants.

And what court decides this. People are innocent until proven guilty, this is universal. These are innocent people, who are summarily being judged as guilty by the IDF - acting with impunity - and being summarily convicted on the spot, having thier own self defense, used as "evidence" of thier guilt.

What a farse.

superskippy wrote:
I dont care why they did it, once they became involved militarily they ceased to be civilians. They acted as a relief force and succeded as a relief force.

You don't care...

What court has decided, that by moving in a direction, you are declared a combatant?

again, please enlighten me

superskippy wrote:
Good at last you have openly admitted that these men were not civilians

I have admitted no such thing. For all we know they were civilians, simply defending themselves from the IDF who is acting with impunity.

Though, in this case, they are admitted Hamas, I believe - which does not mean they are not innocent unitl proven guilty in a court of law.

superskippy wrote:
Quote: Dude, under what LEGAL ground is the IDF operating under within Gaza? Please enlighten me!

In response to overt attacks from a hostile force.

Again, what legal grounds?

What allows Israel to act, illictly, not extending people thier rights, thus, in turn, acting with impunity, summarily dispensing punishment, adn in this case, shooting women, who walked in a direction...

superskippy wrote:

As the woman have said since they beginning they entered the Mosque to free the militants and indeed have proudly boasted to the world media of their success in doing so and in breaking through our cordon of the Mosque.

You cannot possibly still be claiming they were innocent woman protesting? The Woman dont say it, Hamas doesnt say it, the world media doesnt say it, the Palestinians arent saying it, and Israel isnt saying it.

At the point these women were fired upon, they were innocent, regaurdless of intent - as in this case, intent would be in question & disputed, as per the legality of teh IDF operation & the rights of those that operation violates - the fact remains, that these women were fired upon, at a stage in the sequence of events, in which it was not evident what thier intention was. they were targeted by the IDF.