Political Crossfire Forums

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 7759 Location: Petah Tikva

Quote: 3. Militants calling for help, via the radio
4. Group of 200 women APPROACHING

They call for woman to move against the Mosque to aid the fighters and also had militants inside the crowds as has been confirmed yes.

Quote: 5. IDF firing on women as they PASSED thier positions

After being fired upon by militants in the crowd and having the woman (as they themselves admit and proclaim) move in as human shields to get the militants out.

Quote: 6. In the confusion that followed, the militants escaped.

The remaining militants others had come with the crowd and others had escaped.

Quote: Okay so the above show the sequence of events. Nowhere indicating that militans fired upon IDF forces from amongst the group of Women. It does illustrate that the IDF clearly tageted civilians. The Human Shield argument is moot, as teh group was not seemingly in a position to act as shields. The video shows this as well.

I listed, sourced, and verified my points very clearly. I documented where militants fired upon the crowd, I documented where Hamas called for the woman to come to the aid of the militants (which you strongly laughed off), I documented the woman serving as human shields, I documented militants confirmed to be in the crowd.

SpartanPhalanx · Joined: 13 Jul 2004 Posts: 2062 Location: Montreal

superskippy wrote: Are we supposed to feel guilty? They died as human shields in a massive firefight around a mosque with scores of gunmen firing back wounding many of our soldiers in the exchange.

And why shouldn't they fight back Skippy?

Israel chose to invade, you deal with the consequences. What do you expect?

If somehow an armed group of Militants had entered central Tel-Aviv and were firing on Israelis wouldn't you fight back?

Israel time and time again kills civilians and all you are concerned about are your precious soldiers. You are so detached from reality it's incredible.

Plato & Socrates · Joined: 24 Dec 2005 Posts: 1744 Location: London

Well let me butt in for a minute. I've let the situation calm down for a few hours to let the facts filter through.
1. There was only 1 man in the crowd of women protestors which the camera’s could see. This man appeared via the images to have no weapons and the IDF shot him.

2. This notion that men were amongst the women protestors is complete rubbish. The pictures bear this out.

3. Whilst the men escaped there were no women around these men. In the confusion at the back maybe.

4. The Israeli P.R government mouth piece Mark Regev doesn’t offer this up as a excuse so why should other here this is completely false.

5. The only people who claim there were men amongst the women protestors are surprise the IDF.

6. Where the women got shot, they were no-where near the positions of the alleged Palestinian gunmen.

7. With crowd control even in this environment, there are other methods to use instead of live ammunition.

8. If the women had huddled around the men whilst the alleged escapes were in the middle of them, and the IDF had decided to open fire, The IDF might have had a case, but this isnt the case. And if so source.

9. The way the BBC and Sky news are reporting it. They are reporting it as a P.R disaster for Israel. Because when they IDF opened fire, the men were not in the vicinity.

But you guys know me, I’m all ears. When the facts change, I change my mind. Show me evidence to the contrary, and I’ll have to except it. And please don’t quote what the IDF says happened or the Israeli government. Just like I haven’t quoted what Palestinian sources have said. There wouldn’t be much credibility if one does that.

ALi* · Joined: 20 Sep 2006 Posts: 427 Location: Beirut

prometeus wrote: Everybody is entitled to their own opinion, but not to their own facts. So lets take the reality in proper context:

1. As usual a number of peaceful angry Palestinians, took a break from continued the arduous task of nation building, and carried their nation building implements to their hose of worship.

2. Having been rudely criminally/racisetly (both accepted) interrupted in the process of nation building and subsequently praising God, for the fortitude given them to build their nation, these peaceful Palestinians voiced discontent at their usurpers.

3. The IDF soldiers, who rudely interrupted the nation building, (repetition) not valueing their efforts, started firing [i]on the peace loving Palestinians[/i]. (armeless women)

4. Since these peace loving, nation building Palestinians, (repetition) are not versed in armed conflict, they enlisted the aid of their Amazon warriors, husbands and men against the IDF usurpers.

5. As in most armed conflicts casualties resulted, and the world world being... is praising the heroic efforts of the Amazon warriors that the peace loving, nation building Palestinians, who were rudely interrupted (repetition) in their worthy cause, called to their aid.

Have I missed anything?
youve missed the whole point son ill give u a D- :lol:

y cant you just say it was wrong??
it was wrong to kill a woman... it is wrong to kill children... it is wrong to destroy houses, schools, streets, cities...etc when will you have this courage maybe to conclude that?? or is it like ive read the other day that the torat says it is justified to kill women and children for a reasonable case??? is that true? coz if it is u and ur bulls**t talk abt islam can go to the nearest h*ll bcuz u onlu gained freedom bcuz of islam yet again its an habit to forget those who helped you in the past?? right??

finally my advice to you... learn from the past, the past is real... learn from ur mistakes!

P.S: You is not necessarly or only the person who i quoted from.

peace ali.

Venom · Joined: 06 Sep 2006 Posts: 807

[quote=Plato]1. There was only 1 man in the crowd of women protestors which the camera’s could see. This man appeared via the images to have no weapons and the IDF shot him.

2. This notion that men were amongst the women protestors is complete rubbish. The pictures bear this out. [/quote]
Wait there is a man in the crowd and then your #2 is there were no men? Huh?
Your # 1 includes a man your #2 denies any men being there. Color me confused but that seems like a pretty huge contradiction.

Quote: 5. The only people who claim there were men amongst the women protestors are surprise the IDF.

Your #1 states tehre was a man in the crowd, which you state is proven by pictures.

Quote: 7. With crowd control even in this environment, there are other methods to use instead of live ammunition.
If your being shot by real bullets, it makes sense to use real bullets. Nevermind the confusion of the battle and the fact that switching out magazines for rubber bullets or whatever could cost more IDF lives or even more of the women's lives. How easy would it be for a IDF soldier in the heat of battle to pick the wrong magazine? So his spray of rubber bullets is live bullets...

Quote: Show me evidence to the contrary, and I’ll have to except it
We'll your own quotes contradict between men being there and not being there.
Also if you look at the pictures to what you've linked you'll see women in covering their whole body. Unless the IDF has some special X-ray vision on their helmets, how is one to know that is really a woman?
Let's be honest here.. I've seen some guys in my time that have a "womanish" look to them.

[quote=SpartanPhalanx]And why shouldn't they fight back Skippy?

Israel chose to invade, you deal with the consequences. What do you expect?

If somehow an armed group of Militants had entered central Tel-Aviv and were firing on Israelis wouldn't you fight back?

Israel time and time again kills civilians and all you are concerned about are your precious soldiers. You are so detached from reality it's incredible.[/quote]
Nevermind all over Palestine they are funneling in weapons, building mazes of tunnels, etc to attack the Israeli's.
If you willing run to become a human shield you are no longer a civilan. If it was up to me I would have shot anyone that was helping the militants that Israel was fighting. Modren combat does not require the direct use of a "weapon" such as a rifle, a cell phone is more powerful, apparently the radio used to call the women is more powerful. They are all combatants that chose to go there. What part of that reality isn't clear?

prometeus · Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 5:13 pm Post subject:

ALi* wrote: ...finally my advice to you... learn from the past, the past is real... learn from ur mistakes!

Apparently it is the Palestinians who can not learn from the past: ie: Do not mess with the IDF. Of all the similar encounters have any been different? So why not learn from it? My guess is that their hatred does not allow it. As such things WILL NOT change. YOu know what insanity is? Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Some Palestinians have it down pat. It is still sad to see people die, especially because of senseless stupidity as displayed in this case. WE, you can turn the facts any which way you wish, the dead remain dead, and if this will play out 1000 times more it will always have the same result. Like it or not. Only the Palestinians can change that, like it or not, right or wrong, only they can change it, but I guess they hate too much to be able to do it.

ON EDIT: Yes I will say it is wrong to kill anyone at any time, this case being no exception. However since I only have news reports to go by I will refrain from commenting on the merits of this action. Still as sad as this and all the similar events are they wholly CAN be avoided by the Palestinians. By them not wanting to do it (avoid it) it makes it even sadder.

slitedeviance · Joined: 02 Sep 2006 Posts: 1507

prometeus wrote: Only the Palestinians can change that, like it or not, right or wrong, only they can change it, but I guess they hate too much to be able to do it.

But you simply expect them to be able to drop these negative feelings towards Israel without recognising that the actions of the IDF are directly responsible for these feelings.

Reform on one side is not enough, both sides need to learn how to live as neighbours.

prometeus · Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 5:21 pm Post subject:

prometeus · Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 5:22 pm Post subject:

...not again

prometeus · Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 5:27 pm Post subject:

slitedeviance wrote: prometeus wrote: Only the Palestinians can change that, like it or not, right or wrong, only they can change it, but I guess they hate too much to be able to do it.

But you simply expect them to be able to drop these negative feelings towards Israel without recognising that the actions of the IDF are directly responsible for these feelings.

Reform on one side is not enough, both sides need to learn how to live as neighbours.

I do not disagree with that. Whether I expect them to drop their feeling or not, it is not up to me, really, it is just reality. At least that is how I see it. I do not endorse it just that is how I see it. How thie get to that point is really up to them.

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 7759 Location: Petah Tikva

Quote: And why shouldn't they fight back Skippy?

Israel chose to invade, you deal with the consequences. What do you expect?

Irrelivent to the point being argued, but I will oblidge an answer. Hamas has consistantly made the choice to pursue the route of the gun through crossborder attacks and rocket strikes, we have responded to that threat and will continue to do so.

Quote: 1. There was only 1 man in the crowd of women protestors which the camera’s could see. This man appeared via the images to have no weapons and the IDF shot him.

Plato it isnt disputed by the PA, the protesters, or the media that there were confirmed militants in the crowd, or as the "protesters' themselves said their stated goal was to relieve the militants.

Quote: 2. This notion that men were amongst the women protestors is complete rubbish. The pictures bear this out.

It is confirmed by both the AP and BBC as have Palestinian sources. On this note there is nothing to debate.

Quote: 3. Whilst the men escaped there were no women around these men. In the confusion at the back maybe.

Most escaped in a melee of confusion others managed to escape with the throng of woman who had gathered as was their goal.

Quote: 5. The only people who claim there were men amongst the women protestors are surprise the IDF.

And the AP, BBC, IDF, CNN, and Palestinian sources themselves. I have stated several of those sources directly on this page.

Quote: 6. Where the women got shot, they were no-where near the positions of the alleged Palestinian gunmen.

You just said there werent gunmen at all so how could you possible ascertain where they were near?

Quote: 7. With crowd control even in this environment, there are other methods to use instead of live ammunition.

Were in the middle, on one side there is a Mosque with some 60 gunmen engaging in a firefight with us and bullets flying everywhere, on the other we have human shields and rioters rushing forward as well as militants intersperced amongst the crowd. Were going to open fire, this isnt a protest handling situation, this is a combat situation.

Quote: 9. The way the BBC and Sky news are reporting it. They are reporting it as a P.R disaster for Israel. Because when they IDF opened fire, the men were not in the vicinity.

After an appeal by the militant group Hamas was broadcast on local radio, a crowd of up to 200 women began marching towards the mosque.

At least two men disguised in women's clothes were seen being embraced by jubilant bystanders as the women rushed away from the mosque, the Associated Press reported.

"We saw crowds of women. Behind the women hid some of the militants. Some of them were even dressed up as women: we have footage," she said. "Unfortunately because the militants shot at our forces, sometimes we had to respond."

"We risked our lives to free our sons," Um Mohammed, a woman in her 40s, told the AFP news agency afterwards

"Hundreds of us entered the mosque and surrounded the resistance fighters to protect them," 21-year-old Nidaa al-Radih said.

These are excerpts from BBC articles about the incident, I dont get Skynews so I cant comment on that. But the BBC position has been ambivelant and leaning against the Palestinians as most media organizations have been since the evidence of human shields is undisputed.

prometeus · Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 7:56 pm Post subject:

SpartanPhalanx wrote: And why shouldn't they fight back Skippy?

...this may be a bit over the top: Because they get killed :bang:

SpartanPhalanx wrote: Israel chose to invade, you deal with the consequences. What do you expect?
Could you please refresh our memories how did this invasion come about?
How was that choice made?

starwest · Joined: 03 Nov 2006 Posts: 104

yes, shame, shame, you forgot...

that the peace-loving worshipers who we think where women, but could easily have been men,
who were just taking a little walk to the mosque,

just happened to have extra burkas to help the poor innocent weapon-bearing murderers...

They most likely also had ammunition, but it is hard to tell because they managed to free several of the innocent prayerful murderers

... and get away with it.

The ones that died are now honored as martyers and are now in ALLAH heaven with virgins of their choice...

There, is that everything????

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 15567 Location: On Earth

programmusic wrote: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15542376/

human shields

let's just remember this for the next time terrorist supporters say that they don't use human shields

More human shields. Now, hush.

programmusic · Joined: 22 Apr 2006 Posts: 909

lol, they don't even mention which "arab communites" these bomb factories are supposedly near. Do you know? Are they equally close to Jewish communities? Clearly Hezbollah doesn't have a problem hitting arabs, so it wouldn't be much of a deterrant.

Meanwhile hamas blatantly calls for women to be human shields.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 15567 Location: On Earth

programmusic wrote: lol, they don't even mention which "arab communites" these bomb factories are supposedly near. Do you know? Are they equally close to Jewish communities? Clearly Hezbollah doesn't have a problem hitting arabs, so it wouldn't be much of a deterrant.

Meanwhile hamas blatantly calls for women to be human shields.

Hamas didn't call for them to be shields. They called them to protect. They were in the line of fire and were killed. I know that's crazy, but Israel made the decision of shooting these women.

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 7759 Location: Petah Tikva

Quote: More human shields. Now, hush.

Oh come on Saracen.

programmusic · Joined: 22 Apr 2006 Posts: 909

Saracen wrote:

Hamas didn't call for them to be shields. They called them to protect.

With their bodies, ie being human shields

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 15567 Location: On Earth

superskippy wrote: Quote: More human shields. Now, hush.

Oh come on Saracen.

Look. Both sides use it. I'm not condoning it. However, what I'm trying to say is that we shouldn't blame those who went in the way, but blame those who fired the shots, both Israeli and Palestinian.

programmusic · Joined: 22 Apr 2006 Posts: 909

Saracen wrote:
Look. Both sides use it.

That is incorrect