Political Crossfire Forums

SpartanPhalanx · Joined: 13 Jul 2004 Posts: 2061 Location: Montreal

Quote: Venom wrote:-

Really? I could have sworn the Arab world invaded Israel in a joint effort after it's creation. Also continued to launch offensives against Israel in the hopes of wiping them out. Palestine has gone along with this and yet people are shocked that Israel feels the need for a buffer zone when these people have been launching attacks upon them for decades.

The Palestinians didn't invade you Venom and you know that very well. Israel decided even before May15 1948 what would happen to them, so , again, quit pretending.

Resistance to aggression is a legitimate right to everyone, regardless what your twisted logic tells you.

Quote: And yet the Arab world seems to believe they should be able to do anything against the State of Israel with no consequence. Shocking indeed.

Of course Venom. Is there a particular reason you omit Israel's rap-sheet of it's history of aggression against it's neighbours from your above little gem? tens of thousands of innocent civilians have paid with their lives because of Israeli adventures going back decades.....the most recent attrocities having been meted out on the people of Southern Lebanon this past Summer.

In 1999 Yugoslavia was bombed to oblivion for committing a fraction
of Israeli attrocities.

Heavy-handed policies only reap heavy handed returns. Dictat solves nothing. Murder and mayhem solves nothing. Collective punishment reaps revenge. The cycle is endless. Israel's choice. Israel's consequences.

Still, what can one expect when the only damn Superpower left on the planet allows it's protege to act like a Stormtrooper.

Quote: Gaza made Gaza an "open prison". First off they had several chances in deals with Israel for Israel to leave. They denied these deals. Second, Gaza is a terrorist launching pad into Israel and would most certainly continue long after an Israeli withdraw. The Palestinians have never kept up their side of the deal in any negotiations. In fact they are, as usual, resorting to terrorist tactics in an effort to negotiate.. great start.
Maybe if they had the sense to use diplomacy over a ski mask, an AK and a sucide vest they would get someplace? Nevermind that though.

What deals?...Israel finally got their sorry ass out of Gaza, yes, and what did Israel do immediately after the withdrawal??....they tortured and punished the entire population of Gaza to Sonic Booms, all night, every night. Traumatized children, mothers having miscarriages, mental problems. Israel also decided to lock in the population and maintain control of borders and airspace..... in short......COLLECTIVE PUNISHMENT

....hang on, isn't that illegal Venom?

Here's a little exerpt from a write-up in the Guardian taken shortly after Israel vacated Gaza.

"Over the past week, Israeli jets created 28 sonic booms by flying at high speed and low altitude over the Gaza Strip, sometimes as little as an hour apart through the night. During five days in late September, the air force caused 29 sonic booms."

What's even more sickening is Israel's justification for their actions. They are trying to break the will and spirit of the Palestinians, and they are still doing it as we speak.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1607450,00.html

More from the BBC

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4402326.stm

Violence begets violence Venom.

Quote: ya Israel just runs in killing everyone they see your right. In fact they just level towns for NO reason at all right? Nevermind that these Palestinians use Mosques as weapon storage, use women and children as sucide bombers

Thanks for the admission. Palestinians have the right to fight back as is enshrined in the UN charter and the Geneva conventions.

When you abuse an animal long enough it too turns violent......;-)

Venom · Joined: 06 Sep 2006 Posts: 807

Quote: The Palestinians didn't invade you Venom and you know that very well
I'm American... but I'd wage that they their sort of Islamic terrorism has indeed invaded American soil.

Quote: Israel decided even before May15 1948 what would happen to them, so , again, quit pretending.
Yes by deciding to be Jewish they realized I guess that the Arab Muslim world would hate them. I'm glad they had to backbone to not cave to these extremists.

Quote: Resistance to aggression is a legitimate right to everyone, regardless what your twisted logic tells you.
And yet your logic believes Israel is wrong for being resistant to Arab aggression. You believe the IDF is wrong for their buffer zone, even though without it there would be many more attacks on Israeli soil. You're against the IDF incursion of Gaza, even though they signed it back over to Palestine under the aggrement that they wouldn't use it for attacks on Israel, which Palestine did do. So I agree you should be allowed to resist aggression and I'd like to point out this is what Israel is doing.

Quote: Of course Venom. Is there a particular reason you omit Israel's rap-sheet of it's history of aggression against it's neighbours from your above little gem? tens of thousands of innocent civilians have paid with their lives because of Israeli adventures going back decades.....the most recent attrocities having been meted out on the people of Southern Lebanon this past Summer.
You mean the neighbors have have history of attacking Israel directly and indirectly? The attrocities of Southern Lebanon you say? Oh you mean the war started by Hezbollah, Muslim extremists. The ones that launched an offensive strike against Israel, kidnapping soldiers to be used as hostages.
Yes quite the victims indeed.
Nevermind that Lebanon was supposed to remove Hezbollah for the better part of a decade and refused to even attempt this and who cares that the Lebanese government even now refuses to disarm them and speaks highly of the group. Yes they are just victims of the Israeli military machine....

Quote: The first large-scale assaults began on January 9, 1948, when approximately 1,000 Arabs attacked Jewish communities in northern Palestine. By February, the British said so many Arabs had infiltrated they lacked the forces to run them back. In fact, the British turned over bases and arms to Arab irregulars and the Arab Legion.

Early in the war, from November 29, 1947 until April 1, 1948, the Palestinian Arabs took the offensive, with help from volunteers from neighboring countries. The Jews suffered severe casualties and passage along most of their major roadways was disrupted. Starting in April 1948, the Haganah took the initiative, and in six weeks was able to turn the tables by capturing the Arab sections of Tiberias, Haifa and later also Safed and Acre. They temporarily opened the road to Jerusalem and gained control of much of the territory alotted to the Jewish State under the UN Resolution.

Source
Have fun polishing that little gem of a fact. :wink:

Quote: In 1999 Yugoslavia was bombed to oblivion for committing a fraction
of Israeli attrocities.
Let me know when Israel is into the mass executions and mass graves.

Quote: Heavy-handed policies only reap heavy handed returns. Dictat solves nothing. Murder and mayhem solves nothing. Collective punishment reaps revenge. The cycle is endless. Israel's choice. Israel's consequences
Your right it appears to be an endless cycle. Why? Because Palestine refuses any peace deal, backtracks when "occupied" land is left and turns it again into a military staging ground, refusing to negotiate unless it is through the use of Israeli hostages.

Quote: Still, what can one expect when the only damn Superpower left on the planet allows it's protege to act like a Stormtrooper
If I recall from the movies Stormtroopers missed a heck of a lot more than the IDF :wink:
Also the US is hypocritical to Israel on many levels. We are attack on 9/11, we crush two countries. Israel is attacked every single day by terrorism and we expect them to hold their military back.
If a country did to the US what Palestine does to Israel the United States would be blowing cities up and attempting to emplace a more pro Western government.

Quote: What deals?...Israel finally got their sorry ass out of Gaza, yes, and what did Israel do immediately after the withdrawal??....they tortured and punished the entire population of Gaza to Sonic Booms, all night, every night. Traumatized children, mothers having miscarriages, mental problems. Israel also decided to lock in the population and maintain control of borders and airspace..... in short......COLLECTIVE PUNISHMENT
First off... sonic booms is now greater than actual rockets fired from Gaza into Israel? Hrmm if I had to choose I'd certainly take the sonic boombs. I guess the alternative is to drop bombs on terrorists instead of just trying to do a show of force.
Second, these sonic booms are responsible for miscarriages, traumatized children and mental problems? You are aware those all exist in the United States without sonic booms all of the time right?
Third, if Palestine would police their own Israel wouldn't have to for it's own safety. Imagine that.
So the deal with Gaza, in which the IDF left, involved them actually stopping attacks upon Israel from this area. They did not do that. However you fail to mention that aspect of this at all.

Quote: Violence begets violence Venom.
And yet the Palestinians cannot seem to figure this out Spartan.
Israel has time and time again come to the table to talk about peace only to be bombarded by Palestine's terrorists.

Quote: Thanks for the admission. Palestinians have the right to fight back as is enshrined in the UN charter and the Geneva conventions.
Obviously my "admission" was sarcasim, however I guess whatever floats your boat.
Also Israel has these same rights Spartan, which include shooting up Holy sites that are filled with militants. Using a holy site as a military post is illegal by the Geneva conventions I believe.
Oh here is another gem for you.
Quote: The PA pledge was brazenly violated about two hours after the Israeli evacuation, when a Palestinian Arab mob entered the Tomb compound and began to systematically destroy everything in sight, including all remnants of the Yeshiva. The furniture and books that were left behind were burned by the mob. The Palestinian police stood by, failing to prevent any of these violent activities, despite their committment to guard the Tomb
That is a war crime by the way. Notice that the Palestinian police didn't fullfil their part of the deal, and the people of Palestine defaced this religous compound.
Of course the IDF left and the Palestinians didn't feel the need to be savages, oh wait they were... but I guess if those darn infidels would just die then the Palestinians would finally show how peaceful Islam is right?
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1991to_now_alaqsa_josephstomb.php

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 7737 Location: Petah Tikva

Quote: The Palestinians didn't invade you Venom and you know that very well. Israel decided even before May15 1948 what would happen to them, so , again, quit pretending.

The Arabs did invade Spartan and it is an undisputed historical fact, the day the British withdrew 7 Arab armies pushed into Palestine and Israel. Jordanian troops advanced through the West Bank to Jerusalem, and Egyptian troops through Gaza and into the Negev, Iraqi troops pushed to the central belt, Syrian troops pushed through the Galilee, and Lebanese troops fought on the northern border. At the height some Arab forces were less than 30 miles from Tel'Aviv.

Quote: Resistance to aggression is a legitimate right to everyone, regardless what your twisted logic tells you.

Which is why we hurled their armies out of the area and solidifed our state.

Quote: What deals?...Israel finally got their sorry ass out of Gaza, yes, and what did Israel do immediately after the withdrawal??....they tortured and punished the entire population of Gaza to Sonic Booms, all night, every night.

What did the Palestinians do they day we withdrew out of Gaza? Launched a few suicide bombings and gunmen at Israel and hurl some rockets out at our towns and cities. Your complaint is... we scared them with loud noises.

Quote: Violence begets violence Venom.

Spartan... You didnt list any violence! You gave a claim of sonic booms, something that causes no bodily harm and creates a thundering crack and was used as a form of psychological warfare the only claim that could be scraped together was that it might cause miscarriages. Which I might add is crap and is enormously undermined by numerous tests including the Oklahoma City sonic boom tests which bombarded Oklahamo City with Sonic Booms for nearly 7 months with some 1,300 sonic booms as many as 8-14 per day. There was no evidence of medical damage or mental damage, it was purely a major inconveniance and some 73% of the people said they could live with it if they had to.

If your honestly going to equate that with blowing up a bus and gunning down a few people then we really have very little to discuss.

agentkgb · Joined: 23 Aug 2006 Posts: 2241 Location: US

Venom wrote: Quote: You just did it twice in a row again. Individual Palestinians should be held accountable for their actions, but you can't group them into one like that.
The majority of Palestinians apparently support terrorism as evident by the election of the Fatah and Hamas. Also they have failed to show any other party that actually offers diplomacy.
So unless you expect me to list every Palestinian by name that falls into this category I will have to list them as a group as it is the clear majority. Isn't a democracy supposed to be based upon majority rule?
Because there is absolutely no way you could say "Palestinians who are militants," or even just "militants." :roll:
Like slitedeviance said, you need things like money to run for office, most Palestinians aren't exactly rich. Third parties aren't known for being successful in the US either, so, for instance, the fact that a lot of people voted Democrat today doesn't mean that they agree with everything that Democrats stand for, it's just the best option available. In Palestine maybe they just don't have very good options, it doesn't mean it makes sense to talk as though all Palestinians are militants.

Venom · Joined: 06 Sep 2006 Posts: 807

Quote: Because there is absolutely no way you could say "Palestinians who are militants," or even just "militants."
The majority of Palestinians are supporters of militants thus I refer to the group based upon what the majority apparently stands for. This is a majority rules democracy right?

Quote: Like slitedeviance said, you need things like money to run for office, most Palestinians aren't exactly rich.
Ok... tons don't have jobs anyways. Whats stopping them from running a grassroots campaign since they don't have to go to work... imagine all the free time they'd have to tell their neighbors and other parts of Palestine about this new political party.
Quote: Third parties aren't known for being successful in the US either, so, for instance, the fact that a lot of people voted Democrat today doesn't mean that they agree with everything that Democrats stand for, it's just the best option available
Third parties don't rule in the US your right, however they are pretty successful for not even being a really mainstream party.
Hamas is based around terrorism, it's not like well I think they'll lower taxes but they are weak on social reforms or something. It's they are based around terrorism...
Quote: In Palestine maybe they just don't have very good options, it doesn't mean it makes sense to talk as though all Palestinians are militants.
No it means that they are apparently satisfied enough with these options to not try a different route.

agentkgb · Joined: 23 Aug 2006 Posts: 2241 Location: US

Venom wrote: Quote: Like slitedeviance said, you need things like money to run for office, most Palestinians aren't exactly rich.
Ok... tons don't have jobs anyways. Whats stopping them from running a grassroots campaign since they don't have to go to work... imagine all the free time they'd have to tell their neighbors and other parts of Palestine about this new political party.
Lots of Americans don't have jobs, there's still no way they could run for office. Anyway, if it's so easy to run a campaign, why don't you run for President in 2008? It'd likely pay better than whatever your job is now.
Venom wrote: Quote: Third parties aren't known for being successful in the US either, so, for instance, the fact that a lot of people voted Democrat today doesn't mean that they agree with everything that Democrats stand for, it's just the best option available
Third parties don't rule in the US your right, however they are pretty successful for not even being a really mainstream party.
Hamas is based around terrorism, it's not like well I think they'll lower taxes but they are weak on social reforms or something. It's they are based around terrorism...
They run on getting Israel out of Palestine in my understanding, not the methods they want to do it with.
Venom wrote: Quote: In Palestine maybe they just don't have very good options, it doesn't mean it makes sense to talk as though all Palestinians are militants.
No it means that they are apparently satisfied enough with these options to not try a different route.
Because anyone can be elected! Just like it says in our second-grade textbooks! Hurray for democracy! :roll:

Venom · Joined: 06 Sep 2006 Posts: 807

Quote: Lots of Americans don't have jobs, there's still no way they could run for office. Anyway, if it's so easy to run a campaign, why don't you run for President in 2008? It'd likely pay better than whatever your job is now.

If the 4.4% of the US put their finances together they could get the ball running for office. Now if you had 30% odd percent of the population working on a movement instead of being militants then you'd probably see results. 30% is about the % in Palestine that don't have jobs.
Why don't I run for President in 08? I'm not old enough.

[quoteThey run on getting Israel out of Palestine in my understanding, not the methods they want to do it with. [/quote]
I'd say they run on the track record of attacks against Israel to back their words of "wanting Israel out".

Quote: Because anyone can be elected! Just like it says in our second-grade textbooks! Hurray for democracy
Just about anyone can be elected (I do not know if they have age requirements... I am pretty sure they don't allow women to run though....).
Actually a 2nd grade textbook in the US would inform you that there are requirments to run. It doesn't list that you are required to be rich however.
So if you still do not understand the requirements for running for certain offices in the US, then I suggest you research it and possibly buy a new 2nd grade text book because yours was apparently missing some pages that mine has.:lol:

Plato & Socrates · Joined: 24 Dec 2005 Posts: 1743 Location: London

agentkgb wrote: Venom wrote: Quote: Like slitedeviance said, you need things like money to run for office, most Palestinians aren't exactly rich.
Ok... tons don't have jobs anyways. Whats stopping them from running a grassroots campaign since they don't have to go to work... imagine all the free time they'd have to tell their neighbors and other parts of Palestine about this new political party.
Lots of Americans don't have jobs, there's still no way they could run for office. Anyway, if it's so easy to run a campaign, why don't you run for President in 2008? It'd likely pay better than whatever your job is now.
Venom wrote: Quote: Third parties aren't known for being successful in the US either, so, for instance, the fact that a lot of people voted Democrat today doesn't mean that they agree with everything that Democrats stand for, it's just the best option available
Third parties don't rule in the US your right, however they are pretty successful for not even being a really mainstream party.
Hamas is based around terrorism, it's not like well I think they'll lower taxes but they are weak on social reforms or something. It's they are based around terrorism...
They run on getting Israel out of Palestine in my understanding, not the methods they want to do it with.
Venom wrote: Quote: In Palestine maybe they just don't have very good options, it doesn't mean it makes sense to talk as though all Palestinians are militants.
No it means that they are apparently satisfied enough with these options to not try a different route.
Because anyone can be elected! Just like it says in our second-grade textbooks! Hurray for democracy! :roll:

Mod edit. Personal insults are aginst forum rules and will be regidly enforced.

Leftneckredwing

. His views are clear on the Arab people and the Palestinians. Collective Punishment for a whole people. If there was a word to describe 'anti-semitism' against Arabs, he is the embodiment of that view.

Israels time of unrelenting belligerence will come to an end, once Iran has the nuclear option. Faced with the unrecoverable prospect of nuclear engagement and mutual destruction. Israel will contract and be forced to seek diplomatic solutions. It has always been a no-brainer for Arab armies post 1973 to take on Israel, whilst being so militarily weak.

Israels first bargaining position has always been from military strenght. Until that changes, Israels stance will not change. Even a starting point of causing Israel 60% of the damage & deaths, she could inflict on you, would force her to seek the diplomatic route.
Israels attrition rate at times is as high as 20-1. Just look at the ratio of her kills to losses in the last Lebanon conflict. If Israel faced reciprical ifrastructure damage and civilian deaths, who believes the kidnapping of 2 soldiers, would have been Olmerts cue for war? Has long as that is not the case. She will do cart-blanche what she wants.

Her refusal to give the Palestinians a viable state for almost 40 years, and the continual systematic colonization of it. This is testament to that. So people like Venom, will always be so bellicose, because there is no serious repercussion for Israels behaviour. Lets be honest, If I was in Israels shoes, I would carry on the same way. Because in the reality of this cold harsh world, what the f**k can the Arabs really do to her? Hence why she will attack Iran's nuclear facilities soon, and that's a guarantee. Anything less will leave the survival of her state out of her control and in the hands of others and her psyche isn't ready to handle or except that yet.

SpartanPhalanx · Joined: 13 Jul 2004 Posts: 2061 Location: Montreal

Quote: Venom wrote;-

You mean the neighbors have have history of attacking Israel directly and indirectly? The attrocities of Southern Lebanon you say? Oh you mean the war started by Hezbollah, Muslim extremists. The ones that launched an offensive strike against Israel, kidnapping soldiers to be used as hostages.
Yes quite the victims indeed.
Nevermind that Lebanon was supposed to remove Hezbollah for the better part of a decade and refused to even attempt this and who cares that the Lebanese government even now refuses to disarm them and speaks highly of the group. Yes they are just victims of the Israeli military machine..

Sure Venom, whatever you say. Southern Lebanon was full of big, bad hezbollah guys who could walk into Tel Aviv at moments' notice. So a soldier gets kidnapped and a few more killed in the process.....so what? you think it fitting that women and children get cut to pieces in response?

That what youre saying Venom??

But I'm not talking about Hezbollah Venom, I'm talking Lebanese civilians, men, women, children chopped to pieces by Israel's military machine, the most powerful in the M.East, and one of the most advanced in the world. I am talking about the destruction of Lebanese civilian infrastructure throughout Lebanon.

Then again, you have no problem shooting unarmed women, so I shouldn't be surprised ....

Quote: Yes by deciding to be Jewish they realized I guess that the Arab Muslim world would hate them. I'm glad they had to backbone to not cave to these extremists.

I see. So deciding to be Jewish includes ethnically cleansing almost 800,000 civilians ?....Don't know if you've noticed, but that word "civilian" keeps popping up don't it?

Ilan Pappe, political scientist at Haifa University in Israel came up with the following :-

Ilan Pappe, a political scientist at the University of Haifa, is one of the purest Israeli exponents of the 1948 view. He knows how provocative it is to choose the phrase "ethnic cleansing" for the title of his latest book. But ethnic cleansing, he insists, is precisely what occurred in the first Arab-Israeli war. It was, he says, a long, premeditated crime, implemented ruthlessly and then systematically denied. The ethnic cleansing of all of Palestine, he maintains , was the main goal all along.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/326972.cms?epaper

I'll take the word of a Jewish political scientist over you any day of the week ... including Mondays....;-)

As for the buffer zone ... The Wall is being constructed on Palestinian land, no on the Green Line separating the W.Bank from Israel. This is just a continuation of Israeli thievery..... The E1 project linking settlements close to E.Jerusalem is going full steam ahead Venom. That means Palestinian land and property expropriation, thus changing the facts on the ground, as Israel loves to call it, ending with the hopeful redrawing of israel's borders.

That "buffer zone"?

Sonic booms on a civilian population, as well as being collective punishment, is ILLEGAL under the 4th Geneva convention article 33.....It is psychological warfare. Just in case you didn't know. Psychological warfare is violence. Violence begets violence. Just like there is mental, emotional abuse as well as physical abuse, it is still abuse.Basic logic here Venom.
As I mentioned before, if you abuse an animal long enough, it too will get violent. Sonic Booms aside, civilians also have to live with air strikes, constant artillery barages, incursions, arrests, curfews on TOP of Sonic booms. Israel has been producing exactly those types of people who are probably mentally unbalanced after all the fu*king abuse they've had to deal with from their bastard Israeli masters, to pretend Israel is as white as the driven snow, like you so obviously are, is just plain stupid.

I may respond to the rest of your diatribe ..... if I feel like it....;-)

agentkgb · Joined: 23 Aug 2006 Posts: 2241 Location: US

Venom wrote: Quote: Lots of Americans don't have jobs, there's still no way they could run for office. Anyway, if it's so easy to run a campaign, why don't you run for President in 2008? It'd likely pay better than whatever your job is now.

If the 4.4% of the US put their finances together they could get the ball running for office. Now if you had 30% odd percent of the population working on a movement instead of being militants then you'd probably see results. 30% is about the % in Palestine that don't have jobs.
Try to get 30% of a population of that size working together when they don't have any money and have to feed their families and then let me know how that works out.
Venom wrote: Why don't I run for President in 08? I'm not old enough.
Of course, I should have better explained my plan. You should start out running for mayor or something local that you're eligible for, and then work your way up. It'd be easy so long as you're a US citizen, you would need no money or anything, just people telling each other about how great you are. You'll be in the White House as soon as you're old enough, or at least the inauguration day after you become old enough.
Venom wrote: Venom wrote: [quoteThey run on getting Israel out of Palestine in my understanding, not the methods they want to do it with.
I'd say they run on the track record of attacks against Israel to back their words of "wanting Israel out".
There are no doubt many ways you could phrase it. I might also say that they run on their record of opposing occupation.

Venom wrote: Quote: Because anyone can be elected! Just like it says in our second-grade textbooks! Hurray for democracy
Just about anyone can be elected
Theoretically. Not in practice though.
Venom wrote: Actually a 2nd grade textbook in the US would inform you that there are requirments to run. It doesn't list that you are required to be rich however.
Of course it doesn't list that, there's no way a school would but from such a textbook company when they could buy from a happy shiny company.
Venom wrote: So if you still do not understand the requirements for running for certain offices in the US, then I suggest you research it and possibly buy a new 2nd grade text book because yours was apparently missing some pages that mine has.:lol:
That yours has? You still have your second-grade textbook? It's about time you return it. :roll:
I wasn't really referring to the legal requirements like citizenship, I was referring to the practical requirements to run a decent campaign. Finances are one of them.

leftneckredwing · Joined: 13 Nov 2004 Posts: 30114 Location: North America

Plato & Socrates wrote: agentkgb wrote: Venom wrote: Quote: Like slitedeviance said, you need things like money to run for office, most Palestinians aren't exactly rich.
Ok... tons don't have jobs anyways. Whats stopping them from running a grassroots campaign since they don't have to go to work... imagine all the free time they'd have to tell their neighbors and other parts of Palestine about this new political party.
Lots of Americans don't have jobs, there's still no way they could run for office. Anyway, if it's so easy to run a campaign, why don't you run for President in 2008? It'd likely pay better than whatever your job is now.
Venom wrote: Quote: Third parties aren't known for being successful in the US either, so, for instance, the fact that a lot of people voted Democrat today doesn't mean that they agree with everything that Democrats stand for, it's just the best option available
Third parties don't rule in the US your right, however they are pretty successful for not even being a really mainstream party.
Hamas is based around terrorism, it's not like well I think they'll lower taxes but they are weak on social reforms or something. It's they are based around terrorism...
They run on getting Israel out of Palestine in my understanding, not the methods they want to do it with.
Venom wrote: Quote: In Palestine maybe they just don't have very good options, it doesn't mean it makes sense to talk as though all Palestinians are militants.
No it means that they are apparently satisfied enough with these options to not try a different route.
Because anyone can be elected! Just like it says in our second-grade textbooks! Hurray for democracy! :roll:

Mod edit. Personal insults are against forum rules and will be regidly enforced.

Leftneckredwing

. His views are clear on the Arab people and the Palestinians. Collective Punishment for a whole people. If there was a word to describe 'anti-semitism' against Arabs, he is the embodiment of that view.

Israels time of unrelenting belligerence will come to an end, once Iran has the nuclear option. Faced with the unrecoverable prospect of nuclear engagement and mutual destruction. Israel will contract and be forced to seek diplomatic solutions. It has always been a no-brainer for Arab armies post 1973 to take on Israel, whilst being so militarily weak.

Israels first bargaining position has always been from military strenght. Until that changes, Israels stance will not change. Even a starting point of causing Israel 60% of the damage & deaths, she could inflict on you, would force her to seek the diplomatic route.
Israels attrition rate at times is as high as 20-1. Just look at the ratio of her kills to losses in the last Lebanon conflict. If Israel faced reciprical ifrastructure damage and civilian deaths, who believes the kidnapping of 2 soldiers, would have been Olmerts cue for war? Has long as that is not the case. She will do cart-blanche what she wants.

Her refusal to give the Palestinians a viable state for almost 40 years, and the continual systematic colonization of it. This is testament to that. So people like Venom, will always be so bellicose, because there is no serious repercussion for Israels behaviour. Lets be honest, If I was in Israels shoes, I would carry on the same way. Because in the reality of this cold harsh world, what the f**k can the Arabs really do to her? Hence why she will attack Iran's nuclear facilities soon, and that's a guarantee. Anything less will leave the survival of her state out of her control and in the hands of others and her psyche isn't ready to handle or except that yet.

Venom · Joined: 06 Sep 2006 Posts: 807

Quote: Why pander or try and reason with a Israeli apologist bigot like Venom? I wouldn't even waste the steam of my piss on him, even if he was on fire
Yeah yeah... rah rah rah... lets save Palestine... but if you don't agree with me I'd watch you burn alive while I could possibly save you?
:lol:
Good to see you express your ability to live with people that are diverse from you. Oh wait, I don't follow your Pro Palestinian words so therefore you'd watch me die and do nothing. So what was this about a moral and ethical high ground? Weren't you the poster that called myself and MoscowMatt morally bankrupt? :lol:

Quote: Israels time of unrelenting belligerence will come to an end, once Iran has the nuclear option
Of course... it's not like Israel hasn't dealt with this before... oh wait they have.

Quote: Israels attrition rate at times is as high as 20-1. Just look at the ratio of her kills to losses in the last Lebanon conflict. If Israel faced reciprical ifrastructure damage and civilian deaths, who believes the kidnapping of 2 soldiers, would have been Olmerts cue for war? Has long as that is not the case. She will do cart-blanche what she wants.

20-1 Israel to Hezbollah? :lol:
Isreal faced having their civilians killed an infrastructure destroyed. Not going to war means that you will simply just turn a blind eye as more and more soldiers are taken hostage and killed. I mean who in their right mind would perfer to die fighting than slowly being picked off by terrorists right? :roll:

Quote: Her refusal to give the Palestinians a viable state for almost 40 years, and the continual systematic colonization of it
Oh yes because the Palestinians have of course been innocent and caused no problems. In fact if Israel pulled out of the occupied lands they would stop attacking Israel.
Hrmm Hamas seems to otherwise Quote: Mohammed Deif praised Israel's withdrawal from the Gaza Strip as a victory for armed resistance, rejected calls for his group to disarm, and vowed to continue attacks on Israel until the Jewish state is erased from the map.
Oh yes if you don't recall this is the same group elected to the Palestinian government. You know, the group recently elected by the voters of Palestine..

Quote: So people like Venom, will always be so bellicose, because there is no serious repercussion for Israels behaviour
Another unsupported statement. I've support countries involved in wars that were very costly to their own nation. Did you not support the Allies in WW 2? Apparently you would have rather had the UK sit idle while Hitler took the rest of Europe... hey why not sign a treaty with him so you know your safe from his attack. :lol:

Quote: Hence why she will attack Iran's nuclear facilities soon, and that's a guarantee. Anything less will leave the survival of her state out of her control and in the hands of others and her psyche isn't ready to handle or except that yet.
Or perhaps Israel realizes what a huge threat to them Iran is. I guess you haven't heard their President openly wishing to wipe Israel off the map? If you recall the holocaust never happened either according to him.

Also you said Israel's belligerence is coming to an end with Iran and it's nuclear option. Yet at the end of your post you claim Israel is going to strike their nuclear option. Wasn't it Israel that faced this situation in the 1980s and destroyed nuclear facilities? Hrmmm

Spartan
Quote: Sure Venom, whatever you say
Cool looks like case closed.

Quote: Southern Lebanon was full of big, bad hezbollah guys who could walk into Tel Aviv at moments' notice.
It was full of Hezbollah however they couldn't walk into Tel Aviv at a moments notice... otherwise they could have.

Quote: a soldier gets kidnapped and a few more killed in the process.....so what?
Ya your right... big deal. It's only an attack on Israel so who cares.

Quote: you think it fitting that women and children get cut to pieces in response?
Welcome to Israel... apparently Israel should be able to take rocket attack after rocket attack, killing Israeli civilians, not respond with a military incursion... yet if the situation is turned around Israel is just horrible.
What other choice did Israel have with Hezbollah? Turn to the international community? They've failed twice now to even attempt to disarm Hezbollah, who has continued to attack Israel. So again I suppose Israel should just sit and wait to be picked off by these terrorists.
Oh and of course it's not Hezbollahs fault for hiding among the civilians and attempting to use them as a shield against Israel's attacks. Nevermind that.

Quote: That what youre saying Venom??
I am saying that's the cards Israel has been dealt.
Are you saying Israel should just wait and allow their soldiers to be taken hostaged and killed and not respond?

Quote: But I'm not talking about Hezbollah Venom, I'm talking Lebanese civilians, men, women, children chopped to pieces by Israel's military machine, the most powerful in the M.East, and one of the most advanced in the world. I am talking about the destruction of Lebanese civilian infrastructure throughout Lebanon.
Shields used against Israel.Good to see that you don't fault Hezbollah for using them like this... as simple peices of meat to shield them from Israel's crosshairs.
I suppose you oppose the allies actions in WW 2 because hey they killed a lot of civilians, they are animals.

Quote: Then again, you have no problem shooting unarmed women, so I shouldn't be surprised ....
Ok I'll wear one of those outfits and you tell me if I have a weapon on me... apparently there is some form of magic in these viels that they cannot be worn by men right?
Hey how about I setup and IED in some place full of civilians and I have a cellphone to trigger it. A soldier has a chance to shoot me... but wait "I am unarmed"... a simple speed dial and boom there goes 50 civilians. Don't worry I was unarmed though.
And of course Israel shouldn't be able to shoot back at these militants because women have come running to use their bodies to protect them...
:roll:

Quote: I see. So deciding to be Jewish includes ethnically cleansing almost 800,000 civilians
Oh? Israel is of course doing some ethnic cleansing right? They must be pretty bad at it... even though you list them as the most powerful military in the ME, they are unable to kill 800,000 over several decades? Oh 800,000 innocent civilians too, unarmed of course.
Quote: Don't know if you've noticed, but that word "civilian" keeps popping up don't it?

Sure I have. Ever seen the word human shield? Or seen the "reporting" that was easily debunked coming out of Lebanon.

Quote: Ilan Pappe, a political scientist at the University of Haifa, is one of the purest Israeli exponents of the 1948 view. He knows how provocative it is to choose the phrase "ethnic cleansing" for the title of his latest book. But ethnic cleansing, he insists, is precisely what occurred in the first Arab-Israeli war. It was, he says, a long, premeditated crime, implemented ruthlessly and then systematically denied. The ethnic cleansing of all of Palestine, he maintains , was the main goal all along.

A political scientist? Woooopie. :lol:
Seriously though..

Quote: I'll take the word of a Jewish political scientist over you any day of the week ... including Mondays....
That's fine. I'll put stock in what Hamas has been saying, what Iran has been saying, what the ME has done... trying to vocally advocating to wipe Israel out.

Quote: That "buffer zone"?

Yes it's suprising that Israel is developing on land they are in control of. Shocking news indeed.

Quote: Just in case you didn't know. Psychological warfare is violence. Violence begets violence. Just like there is mental, emotional abuse as well as physical abuse, it is still abuse.Basic logic here Venom.
Of course Israel never goes through any of this of course. Na, those random rockets, not knowing if you can get on a civilian bus, eat at a cafe... of course that has no affect on Israelis.

Welcome to Israel/Palestine... a war zone.

Quote: As I mentioned before, if you abuse an animal long enough, it too will get violent
And the arab nations have abused Israel for years and are somehow shocked that they will strike back when they are striked. :shock:
Who woulda thunk it?

Quote: Sonic Booms aside, civilians also have to live with air strikes, constant artillery barages, incursions, arrests, curfews on TOP of Sonic booms.
Of course when Israel left Gaza and stopped being in "control", the Palestinians, when not faced with these problems took up jobs and worked peacefully right?
Oh wait no they were storing up weapons, importing more... digging tunnels.

Quote: Israel has been producing exactly those types of people who are probably mentally unbalanced after all the fu*king abuse they've had to deal with from their bastard Israeli masters, to pretend Israel is as white as the driven snow, like you so obviously are, is just plain stupid.

Meanwhile you fight tooth and nail for a country lead by a terrorist organization. :rotf:
Israel was an extremely abusive nation and that's why all of it's neighbors immediatly invaded once it was created before it even really developed right?
Dang those Jews in Israel... always up to no good right?

Agent
Quote: Try to get 30% of a population of that size working together when they don't have any money and have to feed their families and then let me know how that works out.
They seem to work together fine with it involves throwing rocks or launching rockets. How hard can talking be?
Perhaps if they'd take less time hiding hostages, digging tunnels they might find time to debate issues? Or maybe if their "fun" time wasn't dancing in the streets to such attacks of 9/11 and the London, Madrid, the Russian school, USS Cole, Kobar Towers etc... they could think of alternate ways to fix their nation besides terrorism.
Naaaa

Quote: You should start out running for mayor or something local that you're eligible for, and then work your way up
Ok let's go for school board. Oh wait we just voted and the person elected is someone that is far from rich and had to do her own campaigning. Seemed to work for her. Can women be part of this in Palestine? Hrmmm
Quote: It'd be easy so long as you're a US citizen, you would need no money or anything, just people telling each other about how great you are
Worked for my districts school board member.
Quote: You'll be in the White House as soon as you're old enough, or at least the inauguration day after you become old enough.

Possibly if I can build a large enough base of support I could move on up... :)

Quote: There are no doubt many ways you could phrase it. I might also say that they run on their record of opposing occupation.
You have to support terrorism to oppose occupation?
Hardly.
Hamas doesn't just oppose occupation, they advocate the destruction of all of Israel. Their actions prove they believe what they say.

Quote: Theoretically. Not in practice though.

Yet an Actor has been a US president, governor of Cali.
A Navy SEAL/Fake Wrestler was a governor....
People with no political background take small offices all over the country.
So in practice it can work.

Quote: That yours has? You still have your second-grade textbook? It's about time you return it.
Why? It teachs me more about really happened in the world as opposed to these boards :)

Quote: I was referring to the practical requirements to run a decent campaign. Finances are one of them.
And yet people with very little in the way of finances run and hold office all over America...

agentkgb · Joined: 23 Aug 2006 Posts: 2241 Location: US

Venom wrote: Agent
Quote: Try to get 30% of a population of that size working together when they don't have any money and have to feed their families and then let me know how that works out.
They seem to work together fine with it involves throwing rocks or launching rockets. How hard can talking be?
That would make sense if A) 30% of Palestinians violently opposed occupation and B) those who violently oppose occupation were united in doing so. They're not though.

Venom wrote: Quote: You should start out running for mayor or something local that you're eligible for, and then work your way up
Ok let's go for school board. Oh wait we just voted and the person elected is someone that is far from rich and had to do her own campaigning.
Quote: It'd be easy so long as you're a US citizen, you would need no money or anything, just people telling each other about how great you are
Worked for my districts school board member.
School board? Good for you but that's not exactly national level. School board campaigns are, unsurprisingly, less demanding than a Presidential campaign.

Venom wrote: Quote: There are no doubt many ways you could phrase it. I might also say that they run on their record of opposing occupation.
You have to support terrorism to oppose occupation?
Hardly.
I didn't say that, I said maybe that's what they run on.
Venom wrote: Quote: Theoretically. Not in practice though.

Yet an Actor has been a US president, governor of Cali.
A Navy SEAL/Fake Wrestler was a governor....
People with no political background take small offices all over the country.
So in practice it can work.
Because actors are known for their low level of income. Wait, no...
Venom wrote: Quote: That yours has? You still have your second-grade textbook? It's about time you return it.
Why? It teachs me more about really happened in the world as opposed to these boards :)
Then why are you here? Textbooks aren't really entirely accurate anyway, though that's an entirely different matter.
Venom wrote: Quote: I was referring to the practical requirements to run a decent campaign. Finances are one of them.
And yet people with very little in the way of finances run and hold office all over America...
Yeah, on their school boards. Since when do school boards and similar local offices affect things like their country being occupied?

Venom · Joined: 06 Sep 2006 Posts: 807

Quote: You should start out running for mayor or something local that you're eligible for
You said this and then followed it with
Quote: School board? Good for you but that's not exactly national level
Last time I checked there wasn't a Mayor of the United States.

Quote: School board campaigns are, unsurprisingly, less demanding than a Presidential campaign
How politically demanding was the Palestinian election? I didn't hear of any debates or anything... I did hear of them killing each other.

I said "just about anyone can be elected"
You responded with Quote: Theoretically. Not in practice though.
I showed what you said to be incorrect so you throw a new set of rules...
Ok fair enough.
Again school board members aren't known for being wealthy. I know the one I voted for certainly isn't. So apparently you do not need personnel wealth to become an elected official.

Quote: Then why are you here? Textbooks aren't really entirely accurate anyway, though that's an entirely different matter.
Because clearly I enjoy "debating"

Quote: Yeah, on their school boards. Since when do school boards and similar local offices affect things like their country being occupied?
I guess they enjoy it when it allows them to teach 'How to become a suicide bomber 101".

Di · Joined: 30 Aug 2004 Posts: 924 Location: Northern Calif

agentkgb wrote: Di wrote: What does the Geneva Convention say about repeatedly shooting rockets into civilian areas in violation of specific agreements not to do so? Does it say turn the other cheek unless you happen to be Palestinian, in which case it's okay to break all your promises and try to kill civilians so long as those civilians are only Jews? I don't think so. The people of Gaza have only themselves to blame for this.
Most Palestinians aren't militants, I've always wondered where this idea that Palestinians as a group are to blame for everything that militants do comes from. You live in the US but I don't blame you for the killing of civilians in Haditha, I blame the people who did it.

You would be the exception. Most folks seem to blame Americans for everything that is wrong with the world. Certainly the majority of Palestinians who dance in the street at America's every misfortune do not seem to like us much. :)

That said, Palestinians do not couch their hatred of Israelis by speaking only of those Israelis who have somehow wronged them. They lump Israelis together, just as Israelies make little distinction between those Palestinians who actually shoot rockets into their towns or blow up restaurants and those who gave them both the bombs and the support to do it. The person who paints a mural idolizing the "martyr" who blew up a busload of children didn't press the button, but is nonetheless responsible because the bomber committed the act with the painter's support.

Don't forget, the Palestinian government in Gaza... elected by the majority of Palestinians in Gaza... made certain promises to Israel, then broke those promises with the tacit approval of the Palestinian people. How do we know the Palestinian people approve? Well, it was Palestinians who shoot the rockets, who work in the bomb-making factories, who called out over the radio for women and children to surround the mosque of gun-toting people who had been trying to kill Israelis (who were in turn trying to shut down the rocket factories and find their kidnapped citizens), and it was Palestinians who rushed to that mosque. There were no Palestinians trying to close down these factories, stop the rockets, or capture the criminals in the mosque, were there? Then I believe folks can be forgiven for presuming that all of these activities and the hatreds that drive them are endemic with the majority of Palestinians in Gaza.

That is why I believe with some conviction that the majority of Palestinians are on the side of those who build bombs and rockets, who murder Israeli soldiers on their own soil and kidnap others, and who have violated every agreement made with Israel before the ink is dry.

That is not to say that I do not strongly disapprove of many of Israel's methods; but those methods are not the topic of this particular post. I'm merely answering your question.

agentkgb · Joined: 23 Aug 2006 Posts: 2241 Location: US

Venom wrote: Quote: You should start out running for mayor or something local that you're eligible for
You said this and then followed it with
Quote: School board? Good for you but that's not exactly national level
Last time I checked there wasn't a Mayor of the United States.
I would agree that there's not a mayor of the United States, but how is this relevant?

Venom wrote: Quote: School board campaigns are, unsurprisingly, less demanding than a Presidential campaign
How politically demanding was the Palestinian election? I didn't hear of any debates or anything... I did hear of them killing each other.
The larger the election, the more money is needed.

Venom wrote: I said "just about anyone can be elected"
You responded with Quote: Theoretically. Not in practice though.
I showed what you said to be incorrect so you throw a new set of rules...
Ok fair enough.
Again school board members aren't known for being wealthy. I know the one I voted for certainly isn't. So apparently you do not need personnel wealth to become an elected official.
I was talking about more important offices than school boards seats, since I didn't think that a school board in Palestine was really what we were talking about.

Venom wrote: Quote: Yeah, on their school boards. Since when do school boards and similar local offices affect things like their country being occupied?
I guess they enjoy it when it allows them to teach 'How to become a suicide bomber 101".
:roll:
My point was that, while school boards and similar local offices could impact the area they're in, they're really not all that important to the rest of the country.

agentkgb · Joined: 23 Aug 2006 Posts: 2241 Location: US

Di wrote: agentkgb wrote: Di wrote: What does the Geneva Convention say about repeatedly shooting rockets into civilian areas in violation of specific agreements not to do so? Does it say turn the other cheek unless you happen to be Palestinian, in which case it's okay to break all your promises and try to kill civilians so long as those civilians are only Jews? I don't think so. The people of Gaza have only themselves to blame for this.
Most Palestinians aren't militants, I've always wondered where this idea that Palestinians as a group are to blame for everything that militants do comes from. You live in the US but I don't blame you for the killing of civilians in Haditha, I blame the people who did it.

You would be the exception. Most folks seem to blame Americans for everything that is wrong with the world. Certainly the majority of Palestinians who dance in the street at America's every misfortune do not seem to like us much. :)

That said, Palestinians do not couch their hatred of Israelis by speaking only of those Israelis who have somehow wronged them. They lump Israelis together, just as Israelies make little distinction between those Palestinians who actually shoot rockets into their towns or blow up restaurants and those who gave them both the bombs and the support to do it. The person who paints a mural idolizing the "martyr" who blew up a busload of children didn't press the button, but is nonetheless responsible because the bomber committed the act with the painter's support.

Don't forget, the Palestinian government in Gaza... elected by the majority of Palestinians in Gaza... made certain promises to Israel, then broke those promises with the tacit approval of the Palestinian people. How do we know the Palestinian people approve? Well, it was Palestinians who shoot the rockets, who work in the bomb-making factories, who called out over the radio for women and children to surround the mosque of gun-toting people who had been trying to kill Israelis (who were in turn trying to shut down the rocket factories and find their kidnapped citizens), and it was Palestinians who rushed to that mosque. There were no Palestinians trying to close down these factories, stop the rockets, or capture the criminals in the mosque, were there? Then I believe folks can be forgiven for presuming that all of these activities and the hatreds that drive them are endemic with the majority of Palestinians in Gaza.

That is why I believe with some conviction that the majority of Palestinians are on the side of those who build bombs and rockets, who murder Israeli soldiers on their own soil and kidnap others, and who have violated every agreement made with Israel before the ink is dry.

That is not to say that I do not strongly disapprove of many of Israel's methods; but those methods are not the topic of this particular post. I'm merely answering your question.
I agree with a lot of that, but I can't really blame Palestinians for not trying to capture the militants: since many Palestinians struggle to survive and a lot of these problems are caused directly or indirectly by the Israeli government, it's not surprising that no one rushes to capture people who try to fight the occupation, even though the ways they fight it are wrong.

SpartanPhalanx · Joined: 13 Jul 2004 Posts: 2061 Location: Montreal

Quote: Venom wrote:-

Welcome to Israel... apparently Israel should be able to take rocket attack after rocket attack, killing Israeli civilians, not respond with a military incursion... yet if the situation is turned around Israel is just horrible.
What other choice did Israel have with Hezbollah? Turn to the international community? They've failed twice now to even attempt to disarm Hezbollah, who has continued to attack Israel. So again I suppose Israel should just sit and wait to be picked off by these terrorists.
Oh and of course it's not Hezbollahs fault for hiding among the civilians and attempting to use them as a shield against Israel's attacks. Nevermind that.

If we were talking about Switzerland, I would agree with you whole-heartedly, but we're not.... Israel makes it's own choices, some of which include Israeli air violations against Lebanese sovereignty on an almost daily basis since Israel withdrew its land forces back in 2000. That's in addition to Israeli clandestine activity by Mossad there.

"On May 26th this year, two officials of Islamic Jihad – Nidal and Mahmoud Majzoub – were killed by a car bomb in the Lebanese city of Sidon. This was widely assumed in Lebanon and Israel to be the work of Mossad, the Israeli intelligence agency(3). In June a man named Mahmoud Rafeh confessed to the killings and admitted that he had been working for Mossad since 1994(4). Militants in southern Lebanon responded, on the day of the bombing, by launching eight rockets into Israel. One soldier was lightly wounded. There was a major bust-up on the border, during which one member of Hizbullah was killed and several wounded, and one Israeli soldier wounded. But while the border region “remained tense and volatile”, UNIFIL says it was “generally quiet” until July 12th"

Source:-

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,251-2227831,00.html

Seems to me Hezbollah may have been acting in response to Israeli clandestine activity.....don't you think Venom?

Oh wait....there's more:

The San Francisco Chronicle reports that "more than a year ago, a senior Israeli army officer began giving PowerPoint presentations, on an off-the-record basis, to US and other diplomats, journalists and thinktanks, setting out the plan for the current operation in revealing detail". The attack, he said, would last for three weeks. It would begin with bombing and culminate in a ground invasion. Gerald Steinberg, professor of political science at Bar-Ilan University, (damn Jewish political scientists popping up again) told the paper that "of all of Israel's wars since 1948, this was the one for which Israel was most prepared ... By 2004, the military campaign scheduled to last about three weeks that we're seeing now had already been blocked out and, in the last year or two, it's been simulated and rehearsed across the board".

A "senior Israeli official" told the Washington Post that the raid by Hizbullah provided Israel with a "unique moment" for wiping out the organisation. The New Statesman's editor, John Kampfner, says he was told by more than one official source that the US government knew in advance of Israel's intention to take military action in Lebanon. The Bush administration told the British government.

Israel's assault, then, was premeditated: it was simply waiting for an appropriate excuse....

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,1839280,00.html

All mouth and no pants aren't you Venom?........:-)

Quote:

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 7737 Location: Petah Tikva

Quote: On May 26th this year, two officials of Islamic Jihad – Nidal and Mahmoud Majzoub – were killed by a car bomb in the Lebanese city of Sidon. This was widely assumed in Lebanon and Israel to be the work of Mossad, the Israeli intelligence agency(3). In June a man named Mahmoud Rafeh confessed to the killings and admitted that he had been working for Mossad since 1994

Mossad has a long arm and are worthy of the mantle they have in our defense.

Quote: Militants in southern Lebanon responded, on the day of the bombing, by launching eight rockets into Israel. One soldier was lightly wounded. There was a major bust-up on the border, during which one member of Hizbullah was killed and several wounded, and one Israeli soldier wounded. But while the border region “remained tense and volatile”, UNIFIL says it was “generally quiet” until July 12th"

Ah now you attribute a Casus Belli on the part of Hezbollah to attack Israel for action taken against Islamic Jihad?

And then you go on to cite professors and unamed sources as evidence of some elaborate conspiracy we had for attacking Lebanon and dealing with Hezbollah.

SpartanPhalanx · Joined: 13 Jul 2004 Posts: 2061 Location: Montreal

superskippy wrote: Quote: On May 26th this year, two officials of Islamic Jihad – Nidal and Mahmoud Majzoub – were killed by a car bomb in the Lebanese city of Sidon. This was widely assumed in Lebanon and Israel to be the work of Mossad, the Israeli intelligence agency(3). In June a man named Mahmoud Rafeh confessed to the killings and admitted that he had been working for Mossad since 1994

Mossad has a long arm and are worthy of the mantle they have in our defense.

Quote: Militants in southern Lebanon responded, on the day of the bombing, by launching eight rockets into Israel. One soldier was lightly wounded. There was a major bust-up on the border, during which one member of Hizbullah was killed and several wounded, and one Israeli soldier wounded. But while the border region “remained tense and volatile”, UNIFIL says it was “generally quiet” until July 12th"

Ah now you attribute a Casus Belli on the part of Hezbollah to attack Israel for action taken against Islamic Jihad?

And then you go on to cite professors and unamed sources as evidence of some elaborate conspiracy we had for attacking Lebanon and dealing with Hezbollah.

Skippy,

If there is a casus belli, it may be Israeli infiltration of Lebanon or the death of some Hezbollah members. Who knows. Apologists for Israel, however, love to tow the "Unprovoked attack" line until everyone starts believing it. Isn't that how lies become truth Skippy?
Israel provoked Hezbollah all the time prior to July 12th.....you know that Skippy, as I'm sure there were provocations from the Hezbollah side, one would be naive to think it would be one-sided. All I'm saying is , that both sides had their hands in the lead-up. However Israel made the choice to engage in mass murder in response. THAT is where the two sides diverge.

As for un-named source....That may very well have been the price of admission at the time as it was well before the date of Israel's operation.

However the deafening silence from the United States when Israel was engaged in slaughter of the Southern Lebanese population after July 12th may also provide a clue.