Political Crossfire Forums

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 15544 Location: On Earth

Venom wrote: Quote: The instant they become involved in a military capacity in a combat situation they ceased to be civilians. Their actions are in no way covered by the Geneva Convention. They became combatants with a military objective in mind, breaking the cordon, and relieving the siege and getting the militants within out.
The west would call this "reinforcements".... the east refers to this as a peaceful protest... :lol:

These women were not involved in any military capacity whatsoever. Israeli army did the initiative of moving into the occupied territories in order to disturb the populace. So, to do so, they fire a couple of shots. If the Israeli army wants to kill Hamas politicians that badly, they do not shoot innocents.

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 7749 Location: Petah Tikva

Quote: These women were not involved in any military capacity whatsoever. Israeli army did the initiative of moving into the occupied territories in order to disturb the populace. So, to do so, they fire a couple of shots. If the Israeli army wants to kill Hamas politicians that badly, they do not shoot innocents.

Saracen they were not civilians when they became involved in a military capacity which they without dispute did. They mob rushed a combat situation and stormed the Mosque freeing the besieged militants within and helping them escape our forces and breaking the military cordon. That is a purely military objective that they accomplished, they ceased to be civilians.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 15544 Location: On Earth

superskippy wrote: Quote: These women were not involved in any military capacity whatsoever. Israeli army did the initiative of moving into the occupied territories in order to disturb the populace. So, to do so, they fire a couple of shots. If the Israeli army wants to kill Hamas politicians that badly, they do not shoot innocents.

Saracen they were not civilians when they became involved in a military capacity which they without dispute did. They mob rushed a combat situation and stormed the Mosque freeing the besieged militants within and helping them escape our forces and breaking the military cordon. That is a purely military objective that they accomplished, they ceased to be civilians.

These women may also be the mothers, sisters and wives of these militants, many of who might have not even fired a single bullet at an Israeli soldier.

Venom · Joined: 06 Sep 2006 Posts: 807

Quote: These women were not involved in any military capacity whatsoever
Rushing to a gun battle to become a human shield on your own free will does make you involved in a military capacity.

Quote: Israeli army did the initiative of moving into the occupied territories in order to disturb the populace. So, to do so, they fire a couple of shots. If the Israeli army wants to kill Hamas politicians that badly, they do not shoot innocents.
Gunmen are not politicians? Thats news to me. Your not innocent when you run into a gun battle to help out militants.

Quote: These women may also be the mothers, sisters and wives of these militants, many of who might have not even fired a single bullet at an Israeli soldier.
Ok... so what. They took part in a military manuveur. I don't care who they are related to, they were combatants.
So again using your logic if the mothers, sisters and wives of the IDF became a human shield for the IDF forces they would not be combatants? IF they willingly just made a circle around the IDF (although this wouldn't work as Hamas would love to kill them too) they would be combatants.

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 7749 Location: Petah Tikva

Quote: These women may also be the mothers, sisters and wives of these militants, many of who might have not even fired a single bullet at an Israeli soldier.

Saracen they stated the purpose that they were there for to the entire world and have been trumpeting it on the radio for days, they gave interviews to the BBC and AP. They answered Hamas's call to free the Militants inside the Mosque and took part in military action. There is nothing to argue on this point they very, very, clearly made a military intervention with military results, and have very clearly stated what they did and why they did it.

SpartanPhalanx · Joined: 13 Jul 2004 Posts: 2061 Location: Montreal

Quote: Venom wrote:-

These women are combatants, they didn't come to bring medical attention to these militants, they came to help perform a military maneuver. These women are part of a hostile act and as under the Geneva conventions are a hostile force

As I said Venom, try challenging the provision listed in the article. Article 4 states: "Persons protected by the Convention are those who, at a given moment and in any manner whatsoever, find themselves, in case of a conflict or occupation, in the hands of a Party to the conflict or Occupying Power of which they are not nationals."

The fact these women are in their own territory and the fact these women were unarmed gives no credence to your argument. Israel, by invading and imposing curfews, erecting roadblocks and killing innocents whether intentional or not is STILL an act of aggression and every people, wherever they are in the world have the right to resist aggression by any means possible as is enshrined in th UN Charter itself.

You seem to have your morals and ethics a little mixed up.

You also mentioned the reasons why Israel went into Gaza in the first place as if they were "provoked" into invading Gaza. Well, economic and military blockade of Gaza is still aggression and violence Venom. Collective punishment is still violence Venom. Complete control and abuse of a population is still violence. The day Israel treats the Palestinians as equals, the day Israel negotiates honestly and transparently will be the day Kassams stop flying out of Gaza.

As I said in my previous post to you, article 33 of the fourth Geneva Convention precedes your position on the dead women. Collective punishment as I listed above is illegal under International Law. Israel has violated and continues to violate its signature to that document.

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 7749 Location: Petah Tikva

But you are utterly discounting that these were not passive woman, nor were they simply protesting. They took up military action which immediatly discounts any protection they would gain as a civilian under the Geneva Convention.

Venom · Joined: 06 Sep 2006 Posts: 807

Spartan
These women took part in a military movement on their own free will... you as SuperSkippy has pointed out, completely ignored this fact.
They were part of this military action.

Also when you talk part of Israel's "aggression" you do not account for the Palestinian aggression against them. The fact is the are making these pushes do to attacks upon Israel. However I do not see that in your Geneva Conventions lecture. All I'm told by you is that that these women are "innocent" and did not take part in this military action and that Israel is just invading Palestine for no apparent reason.

Quote: The day Israel treats the Palestinians as equals, the day Israel negotiates honestly and transparently will be the day Kassams stop flying out of Gaza.

Ummm no one that understands these groups believes that Spartan. These groups have sworn to destroy Israel Spartan. They will not stop even if Israel left the "occupied" terrority because they believe all of Israel is "occupied territory" Spartan. Israel left Lebanon and was yet still attacked by a terrorist group Spartan, you don't believe Hamas would do the same Spartan?
What countries offer the possibility of Palestinians to become citizens Spartan?
Does Palestine treat Israel as equal Spartan, or does this country driven by radical Islam treat them as infidels that deserver to die if they won't convert Spartan? Does Hamas and the Fatah negotiate honestly ? Did they stop attacks when Israel pulled out of any occupied areas Spartan? No they haven't Spartan.
It's a nice dream... but just a dream at the end of the day Spartan.

SpartanPhalanx · Joined: 13 Jul 2004 Posts: 2061 Location: Montreal

Venom wrote: Spartan
These women took part in a military movement on their own free will... you as SuperSkippy has pointed out, completely ignored this fact.
They were part of this military action.

Also when you talk part of Israel's "aggression" you do not account for the Palestinian aggression against them. The fact is the are making these pushes do to attacks upon Israel. However I do not see that in your Geneva Conventions lecture. All I'm told by you is that that these women are "innocent" and did not take part in this military action and that Israel is just invading Palestine for no apparent reason.

Quote: The day Israel treats the Palestinians as equals, the day Israel negotiates honestly and transparently will be the day Kassams stop flying out of Gaza.

Ummm no one that understands these groups believes that Spartan. These groups have sworn to destroy Israel Spartan. They will not stop even if Israel left the "occupied" terrority because they believe all of Israel is "occupied territory" Spartan. Israel left Lebanon and was yet still attacked by a terrorist group Spartan, you don't believe Hamas would do the same Spartan?
What countries offer the possibility of Palestinians to become citizens Spartan?
Does Palestine treat Israel as equal Spartan, or does this country driven by radical Islam treat them as infidels that deserver to die if they won't convert Spartan? Does Hamas and the Fatah negotiate honestly ? Did they stop attacks when Israel pulled out of any occupied areas Spartan? No they haven't Spartan.
It's a nice dream... but just a dream at the end of the day Spartan.

You seem to forget who invaded who my friend. Your world is obviously autocratic and authoritarian, therein lies the problem. You cannot impose your will without consequence so don't pretend to have the naivete to expect that it should.

You(As a Zionist apologist) seem to want to suggest Israel has ever been a just, honest and transparent negotiator. Palestinians weren't angels in many cases, granted, but your plan has never been to share the land so please, don't pretend you do because when you do, you turn it into an open prison such as present day Gaza. Israel continues on the path of murder and mayhem, so I'm afraid I don't see any peace for either side for quite some time, but try not to let your arrogance get the better of you as a hell of a lot more may happen before it's all over and that would just be sheer lunacy wouldn't it? hell, for all I know everyone in the region may be in trouble....

I hope the hell I'm wrong. Time always tells, right Venom?....maybe not in my or your lifetime, but time will definitely tell.

starwest · Joined: 03 Nov 2006 Posts: 104

These women entered into combat, so to then enter into a media deception to make themselves appear innocent just doesn't wash...

In fact, it makes the Hezzbollah once again, try to justify deception...

Meanwhile our body-bags are coming home...at the hands of these deceptive terrorists.

slitedeviance · Joined: 02 Sep 2006 Posts: 1507

starwest wrote: These women entered into combat.

No they didn't. No they were not combatants. Yes they put their lives at risk and the IDF cannot really be blamed.

Venom · Joined: 06 Sep 2006 Posts: 807

Spartan
Quote: You seem to forget who invaded who my friend
Really? I could have sworn the Arab world invaded Israel in a joint effort after it's creation. Also continued to launch offensives against Israel in the hopes of wiping them out. Palestine has gone along with this and yet people are shocked that Israel feels the need for a buffer zone when these people have been launching attacks upon them for decades.

Quote: Your world is obviously autocratic and authoritarian, therein lies the problem
Ah I figured my problem was that I recognized that these groups openly state they will not stop their fight against Israel until they are wiped off the map... you know the reality Israel lives in.

Quote: You cannot impose your will without consequence so don't pretend to have the naivete to expect that it should.
And yet the Arab world seems to believe they should be able to do anything against the State of Israel with no consequence. Shocking indeed.

Quote: You(As a Zionist apologist) seem to want to suggest Israel has ever been a just, honest and transparent negotiator.
I make no apologies for the State of Israel being created and the West' involvment in the ME.

Quote: Palestinians weren't angels in many cases, granted, but your plan has never been to share the land so please, don't pretend you do because when you do, you turn it into an open prison such as present day Gaza.
Gaza made Gaza an "open prison". First off they had several chances in deals with Israel for Israel to leave. They denied these deals. Second, Gaza is a terrorist launching pad into Israel and would most certainly continue long after an Israeli withdraw. The Palestinians have never kept up their side of the deal in any negotiations. In fact they are, as usual, resorting to terrorist tactics in an effort to negotiate.. great start.
Maybe if they had the sense to use diplomacy over a ski mask, an AK and a sucide vest they would get someplace? Nevermind that though.

Quote: Israel continues on the path of murder and mayhem
ya Israel just runs in killing everyone they see your right. In fact they just level towns for NO reason at all right? Nevermind that these Palestinians use Mosques as weapon storage, use women and children as sucide bombers.
Quote: a widely televised incident in which a mentally handicapped Palestinian teenager, Hussam Abdo, was disarmed at an Israeli checkpoint.[3].
Yes those monsters blew him up in place.. oh actually no these "murdering" Israelis actually didn't. They saved his life.
So I wonder who is really on this path of murder and mayhem? Perhaps Palestine....
A teenager who is mentally handicapped used as a weapon...
disgusting.

Quote: so I'm afraid I don't see any peace for either side for quite some time, but try not to let your arrogance get the better of you as a hell of a lot more may happen before it's all over and that would just be sheer lunacy wouldn't it?
Well since Palestinians dance in the streets to 9/11 attacks, the London Bombings, etc... they declare as young children their desire to become suicide bombers, they continue to elect terrorist groups, launch terrorist attacks against Israel, refuse diplomacy as seen in the last decade, and then have the gull to cry bloody murder. If this wasn't reality it might even be humourous. So yes until the Palestinians are prepared to stop fighting Israel, Israel has zero reason to leave. Why would you leave when they just follow you to whatever place your at to fight you? So they can come fight in your country?
Look at the 1980s-2000 in the United States. Terrorists attacked us outside of the United States all over the world, Beruit, Embassies, the USS Cole, etc... guess what they did when we pulled out? They attacked us in the United States.

Quote: hell, for all I know everyone in the region may be in trouble....

Of course everyone in the region is in trouble Spartan, look at what countries reside there and how the thought of Islam being the only acceptable way is the norm.

Quote: I hope the hell I'm wrong. Time always tells, right Venom?....maybe not in my or your lifetime, but time will definitely tell.
Time will tell, but you don't have to sit and watch everything to figure out the ending now do you?

Quote: No they didn't. No they were not combatants. Yes they put their lives at risk and the IDF cannot really be blamed.
So if I ran to become a shield for someone in a shootout with the police would I be guilty of helping this criminal and thus charged with the same crimes?
I'd hope so.
These women chose to use their bodies as a weapon against the IDF. Remember the pen is mightier than the sword and a woman dying is a great political tool for these terrorists.

Di · Joined: 30 Aug 2004 Posts: 924 Location: Northern Calif

What does the Geneva Convention say about repeatedly shooting rockets into civilian areas in violation of specific agreements not to do so? Does it say turn the other cheek unless you happen to be Palestinian, in which case it's okay to break all your promises and try to kill civilians so long as those civilians are only Jews? I don't think so. The people of Gaza have only themselves to blame for this. They were given everything they basically wanted, complete withdrawal of all Israeli settlers and troops, and total autonomy to govern themselves and provide for their own security. And what did they do? Broke every promise before the ink had dried, and continue to murder, kidnap and shoot rockets into Israel. I fail to see why I or anyone else should feel sorry for them when Israel has finally had enough of it, and marches back in to wipe out the weapons caches and search for its kidnapped citizen(s).

agentkgb · Joined: 23 Aug 2006 Posts: 2241 Location: US

Di wrote: What does the Geneva Convention say about repeatedly shooting rockets into civilian areas in violation of specific agreements not to do so? Does it say turn the other cheek unless you happen to be Palestinian, in which case it's okay to break all your promises and try to kill civilians so long as those civilians are only Jews? I don't think so. The people of Gaza have only themselves to blame for this.
Most Palestinians aren't militants, I've always wondered where this idea that Palestinians as a group are to blame for everything that militants do comes from. You live in the US but I don't blame you for the killing of civilians in Haditha, I blame the people who did it.

Venom · Joined: 06 Sep 2006 Posts: 807

Quote: Most Palestinians aren't militants, I've always wondered where this idea that Palestinians as a group are to blame for everything that militants do comes from. You live in the US but I don't blame you for the killing of civilians in Haditha, I blame the people who did it.
Why don't you blame me for the killings in Haditha? Probably because if proven guilty (I haven't followed this case) they will be thrown in the brig.
What happens if Palestinians had killed a group of Israeli civilians? Well they have and guess what happens in a normal case? Nothing. Maybe the IDF will give chase, but women will in turn make themselves shields and be referred to as innocent as they impede the IDF's ability to pursue and kill these murderers.

By not doing anything about it your giving acceptance.

agentkgb · Joined: 23 Aug 2006 Posts: 2241 Location: US

Venom wrote: Quote: Most Palestinians aren't militants, I've always wondered where this idea that Palestinians as a group are to blame for everything that militants do comes from. You live in the US but I don't blame you for the killing of civilians in Haditha, I blame the people who did it.
Why don't you blame me for the killings in Haditha? Probably because if proven guilty (I haven't followed this case) they will be thrown in the brig.
What happens to the Marines who did it has absolutely nothing to do with why I don't blame you. I don't blame you because you didn't do it.

Plato & Socrates · Joined: 24 Dec 2005 Posts: 1743 Location: London

agentkgb wrote: Venom wrote: Quote: Most Palestinians aren't militants, I've always wondered where this idea that Palestinians as a group are to blame for everything that militants do comes from. You live in the US but I don't blame you for the killing of civilians in Haditha, I blame the people who did it.
Why don't you blame me for the killings in Haditha? Probably because if proven guilty (I haven't followed this case) they will be thrown in the brig.
What happens to the Marines who did it has absolutely nothing to do with why I don't blame you. I don't blame you because you didn't do it.

This concept is foreign to him. It is the Jewish version of blaming all the Jews for the problem. Except this time, replace Jew with "the Palestinians" Many Israeli's view the Palestinians as vermin, beneath them. There lives has Venom has argued on many a occasion, is simply worth little. Collective punishment is the name of the game, all the Palestinians are as guilty as each other. Have'nt you heard them argue, that Palestinian society deserves nothing for voting in Hamas. The justifications for the dispicable treatment of the Palestinians, becomes more and more absurd.

Venom · Joined: 06 Sep 2006 Posts: 807

Quote: This concept is foreign to him
What holding people accountable for their actions unlike the Palestinians apparently?

Quote: There lives has Venom has argued on many a occasion, is simply worth little. Collective punishment is the name of the game, all the Palestinians are as guilty as each other. Have'nt you heard them argue, that Palestinian society deserves nothing for voting in Hamas.
Your correct they deserve nothing when they support terrorism. Welcome aboard Plato.

Of course this comes from the same person that wrote how Israel deserved to pay a great price to get their kidnapped soldiers back.
Quote: A waste of bloody time if you ask me. For the mess Israel caused. The price for those soldiers return will be high and it serves them right.
Ya servers Israel right for not bending their backs to terrorists that take people hostage and use their lives as a simple poker chip, great way to lead diplomacy don't you think?

agentkgb · Joined: 23 Aug 2006 Posts: 2241 Location: US

Venom wrote: Quote: This concept is foreign to him
What holding people accountable for their actions unlike the Palestinians apparently?

Quote: There lives has Venom has argued on many a occasion, is simply worth little. Collective punishment is the name of the game, all the Palestinians are as guilty as each other. Have'nt you heard them argue, that Palestinian society deserves nothing for voting in Hamas.
Your correct they deserve nothing when they support terrorism. Welcome aboard Plato.
You just did it twice in a row again. Individual Palestinians should be held accountable for their actions, but you can't group them into one like that.

Venom · Joined: 06 Sep 2006 Posts: 807

Quote: You just did it twice in a row again. Individual Palestinians should be held accountable for their actions, but you can't group them into one like that.
The majority of Palestinians apparently support terrorism as evident by the election of the Fatah and Hamas. Also they have failed to show any other party that actually offers diplomacy.
So unless you expect me to list every Palestinian by name that falls into this category I will have to list them as a group as it is the clear majority. Isn't a democracy supposed to be based upon majority rule?