Political Crossfire Forums

Plato & Socrates · Joined: 24 Dec 2005 Posts: 1743 Location: London

The story is still coming out and I'm not blaming no side yet and absolving the other. It can only be described as yet another sad event in the sordid affair, know as the Israel-Palestine conflict. Watch the video and make up your own minds. news.sky.com/skynews/video/videoplayer/0,,31200-gazamarshall_031106_0930,00.html
Take note and listen to the words very carefully, of what the correspondants say. Here's another view of what 's going on in Gaza and the West Bank. news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6112386.stm

Yoadm · Joined: 11 Apr 2005 Posts: 398 Location: Israel

"Palestinian health officials said that a Palestinian woman was killed on her way to the mosque after a Hamas radio station in Gaza broadcast a call to northern Gaza women to go to the mosque to serve as human shields for the Palestinian operatives inside."

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1162378317332&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

That is how 40 gunmen escaped, and how a Palestinien woman (human shield) got killed in the process. The Humanity of this conflict...

mendosan · Joined: 02 May 2006 Posts: 2332

Those women are very brave, I don't think there are many mothers who wouldn't die for there sons.

Quote: We risked our lives to free our sons
Um Mohammed, Beit Hanoun woman

No one likes hearing about civillians gettig killed.

Plato & Socrates · Joined: 24 Dec 2005 Posts: 1743 Location: London

mendosan wrote: Those women are very brave, I don't think there are many mothers who wouldn't die for there sons.

Quote: We risked our lives to free our sons
Um Mohammed, Beit Hanoun woman

No one likes hearing about civillians gettig killed.

When is enough just enough? The Palestinians elect Hamas and then the Israeli P.M put people like Avigdor Lieberman in office. Is there any f**king hope? :roll: It is the systematic polarization of both sides. Boths sides are digging in. Both sides are becoming intransigent. It just amazes me that groups like Hamas believe they will get any change out of Israel with there tactics, and not even contemplating recognizing the state of Israel. It also amazes me that I hear Israeli opinion formers talking about strengthening Fatah and Abbas. When months before Israel was doing everything to destroy and discredit Fatah has terrorists and the like. Now they are the preferred option. :roll:

The politicians on both sides are a disgrace to there electorate, they have'nt got a f**king clue what is needed to make a lasting peace. It like the perennial Queen of hearts story, In Alice Through The Looking Glass, but with a twist. Jam tomorrow, Jam yesterday and there will definitely be Jam today. But instead of Jam, just replace with the words, violence and death. But when it comes to peace, there is definitely the possibility of Jam tomorrow, and there could have been jam yesterday, but never jam today.

bunny · Joined: 14 Oct 2006 Posts: 584

mendosan wrote:

No one likes hearing about civillians gettig killed.

Yet, it seems to happen daily, thanks to Israel & the IDF, within the Occupied Territories.

Seems that if it's not women being shot & killed, it's children.

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 7442 Location: Petah Tikva

Are we supposed to feel guilty? They died as human shields in a massive firefight around a mosque with scores of gunmen firing back wounding many of our soldiers in the exchange.

bunny · Joined: 14 Oct 2006 Posts: 584

Also, Israel killed another elderly women today elsewhere: "An elderly Palestinian woman was killed in the West Bank town of Bethlehem during an Israeli army arrest raid." ~BBC

bunny · Joined: 14 Oct 2006 Posts: 584

superskippy wrote: Are we supposed to feel guilty? They died as human shields in a massive firefight around a mosque with scores of gunmen firing back wounding many of our soldiers in the exchange.

You're not supposed to feel anything, remember, non-jewish lives are not equal, and thus, less valuable... Israel is defending itself, remember that!

prometeus · Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 1:30 pm Post subject:

bunny wrote: Yet, it seems to happen daily, thanks to Israel & the IDF, within the Occupied Territories.

You forgot to mention suicide bombers. Was that just an oversight or the deaths caused by them do not count?

bunny wrote: Seems that if it's not women being shot & killed, it's children.

When innocent people die gender or age are hardly an issue. A life is a life is a life.

bunny wrote: You're not supposed to feel anything, remember, non-jewish lives are not equal, and thus, less valuable... Israel is defending itself, remember that!.

One gets the feeling that the reverse is true in your opinion...

programmusic · Joined: 22 Apr 2006 Posts: 908

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15542376/

human shields

let's just remember this for the next time terrorist supporters say that they don't use human shields

bunny · Joined: 14 Oct 2006 Posts: 584

prometeus wrote:

You forgot to mention suicide bombers. Was that just an oversight or the deaths caused by them do not count?

In the context of this conversation, that point is irrelevant, as there was no suicide bombing, nor has there been one for years.

prometeus wrote:
When innocent people die gender or age are hardly an issue. A life is a life is a life.

I agree, all lives are equal, however my point was; that a disproportionate amount of women & children seem to be dying in the Occupied Territories.

prometeus wrote:

One gets the feeling that the reverse is true in your opinion...

You can assume all you like, however, I believe all people are equal, unlike the Gov't of Israel.

bunny · Joined: 14 Oct 2006 Posts: 584

programmusic wrote: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15542376/

human shields

let's just remember this for the next time terrorist supporters say that they don't use human shields

It was a protest - the IDF fired upon civilians, targeting civilians.

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 7442 Location: Petah Tikva

It was not a protest dont even try and argue that, it was a heavy gunbattle with scores of Hamas gunmen inside the Mosque where we had been besieging and in the fray dozens managed to escape death or capture. Hamas issued a radio call for them into action to relieve the gunmen in the Mosque and they responded, as did we, militants in the crowds of "protesters" were firing on the IDF and the woman served as shields to allow dozens of Gunmen to escape.

bunny · Joined: 14 Oct 2006 Posts: 584

superskippy wrote: It was not a protest dont even try and argue that, it was a heavy gunbattle with scores of Hamas gunmen inside the Mosque where we had been besieging and in the fray dozens managed to escape death or capture. Hamas issued a radio call for them into action to relieve the gunmen in the Mosque and they responded, as did we, militants in the crowds of "protesters" were firing on the IDF and the woman served as shields to allow dozens of Gunmen to escape.

it's funny how you fit the classic definition of a jingoist!

1. Link to Hamas making radio calls
2. Link to Militants fring from group of women

I have seen no evidence of the above.

Interesting that you support:

1. Firing on a house of God, and those seekign refuge within.
2. Firing on a group of women & children

Funny that teh Israeli Defense Force cannot teach it's troops to defend themselves, thru trainging & equipment, in situations like this. Instead, tehy seem to sanction firing indiscriminately into a group of women & children

programmusic · Joined: 22 Apr 2006 Posts: 908

no, it's the pathetic terrorists who hide in a mosque, knowing that Israel will be relucatant to attack a mosque. And then they call for civilians to shield them, knowing that Israel will avoid hitting civilians. They know this, which is why they use human shields.

programmusic · Joined: 22 Apr 2006 Posts: 908

bunny wrote:

it's funny how you fit the classic definition of a jingoist!

1. Link to Hamas making radio calls
2. Link to Militants fring from group of women

With sporadic shooting persisting Friday morning, Hamas radio broadcast a call to women to go to Beit Hanoun to shield the militants. Dozens of women left their homes to a hurry to the mosque, and en route, came under Israeli fire, witnesses and officials said.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15542376/

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 7442 Location: Petah Tikva

Quote: 1. Link to Hamas making radio calls

Very easy.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6112386.stm

A tense stand-off developed on Friday after Israeli forces surrounded the mosque, where at least 15 Palestinian gunmen, thought to be mainly from the military wing of Hamas, had taken refuge.

After an appeal by the militant group Hamas was broadcast on local radio, a crowd of up to 200 women began marching towards the mosque.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/11/03/mideast.violence/index.html

The group of women rallied outside a mosque in Beit Hanoun shortly after Hamas radio called on women and children to march in protest at the incident, IDF said.

I could gather another 20 sources if you want.

Quote: 2. Link to Militants fring from group of women

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/11/03/mideast.violence/index.html

The gunmen had been holed up in a northern Gaza mosque for hours mingling with a crowd of Palestinian women who had formed a human shield outside, the Israel Defense Forces said. Palestinian sources said some of the militants had put on women's clothes.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6112386.stm

At least two men disguised in women's clothes were seen being embraced by jubilant bystanders as the women rushed away from the mosque, the Associated Press reported.

"We saw crowds of women. Behind the women hid some of the militants. Some of them were even dressed up as women: we have footage," she said. "Unfortunately because the militants shot at our forces, sometimes we had to respond."

"We risked our lives to free our sons," Um Mohammed, a woman in her 40s, told the AFP news agency afterwards

"Hundreds of us entered the mosque and surrounded the resistance fighters to protect them," 21-year-old Nidaa al-Radih said.

I mean come on man, there were confirmed militants in the crowds, it is undisputed that the woman rushed forward to serve as human shields as they attest to in their own words and on video, the gunmen were in the mosque and were being protected again undisputed. We have nothing to be sorry for.

bunny · Joined: 14 Oct 2006 Posts: 584

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6112386.stm

Quote: Two women have been killed as Israeli troops opened fire on a crowd of women gathered to help besieged gunmen flee a Gaza mosque, witnesses and doctors say.

The Israeli military said the militants escaped by mingling with the women, who were acting as human shields.

The army said it was investigating the reports of deaths and that there had been armed men in the crowd.

The gunmen had sheltered in the mosque during a three-day Israeli raid in the north Gaza town of Beit Hanoun.

In a separate incident, an Israeli air strike hit another building used as a mosque on the outskirts of the town.

Witnesses said at least three people had been injured.

Hamas appeal

Israeli troops moved in and sealed the town off on Wednesday, in one of its biggest operations in recent months, said to be aimed at stopping militants firing rockets into Israel.

A tense stand-off developed on Friday after Israeli forces surrounded the mosque, where at least 15 Palestinian gunmen, thought to be mainly from the military wing of Hamas, had taken refuge.

After an appeal by the militant group Hamas was broadcast on local radio, a crowd of up to 200 women began marching towards the mosque.

Shots were fired as they approached Israeli forces. As some of the women tried to pass the troops, further shots came and two women fell to the ground.

At least 10 women and a Palestinian cameraman were injured.

The militants escaped from the mosque in the confusion that followed.

Linkage

So, The sequence of events show;

1. 15 suspected militants seeking refuge in a house of god
2. IDF troops taking positions around the Mosque
3. Militants calling for help, via the radio
4. Group of 200 women APPROACHING
5. IDF firing on women as they PASSED thier positions
6. In the confusion that followed, the militants escaped.

** note the seperate attack, in which teh IDF fired upon another Mosque, injuring three.

Okay so the above show the sequence of events. Nowhere indicating that militans fired upon IDF forces from amongst the group of Women. It does illustrate that the IDF clearly tageted civilians. The Human Shield argument is moot, as teh group was not seemingly in a position to act as shields. The video shows this as well.

bunny · Joined: 14 Oct 2006 Posts: 584

programmusic wrote: bunny wrote:

it's funny how you fit the classic definition of a jingoist!

1. Link to Hamas making radio calls
2. Link to Militants fring from group of women

With sporadic shooting persisting Friday morning, Hamas radio broadcast a call to women to go to Beit Hanoun to shield the militants. Dozens of women left their homes to a hurry to the mosque, and en route, came under Israeli fire, witnesses and officials said.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15542376/

IE; Before they arrived.

prometeus · Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 3:28 pm Post subject:

Everybody is entitled to their own opinion, but not to their own facts. So lets take the reality in proper context:

1. As usual a number of peaceful Palestinians, took a break from the arduous task of nation building, and carried their nation building implements to their hose of worship.

2. Having been rudely interrupted in the process of nation building and subsequently praising God, for the fortitude given them to build their nation, these peaceful Palestinians voiced discontent at their usurpers.

3. The IDF soldiers, who rudely interrupted the nation building, not valueing their efforts, started firing on the peace loving Palestinians.

4. Since these peace loving, nation building Palestinians, are not versed in armed conflict, they enlisted the aid of their Amazon warriors, against the IDF usurpers.

5. As in most armed conflicts casualties resulted, and the world is praising the heroic efforts of the Amazon warriors that the peace loving, nation building Palestinians, who were rudely interrupted in their worthy cause, called to their aid.

Have I missed anything?