Political Crossfire Forums

[mathurin]

i havent yet seen a single topic for this subject alone, it is touched on often but rarely confronted, its one i am interested in greatly because i work with people who are or have been in the system

what do i want changed, most everything
essentially i feel that we need to change our approach, go towards the teaching somebody how to fish side



i think that most of the people on the bottom rung of the ladder are there because they lack skills
so, we make programs to teach these, for example, saw an excellent program on the news, it paid underprivelegded kids to build boats in the morning and do school in the afternoon, they graduated with a ged, but more importantly a carpenters union card, something that gives them options in almost any area they are
the kids also were forced to behave properly, for example, being late dropped your pay rate to minimum wage that day, skipping the day dropped it for 2 days. they also rubbed elbows with older people, stand up honorable guys, father figures you might say, it was a good thing

create a new system, a "college of life"
most people seem to jump to actual college as an idea, that is not what i am suggesting, it is too ambitious for most of them, give them a marketable skill, plumbing or electrical

the biggest skill that needs addressed is budgeting, the people i see spend their check as soon as it is received
perhaps, they dont make enough money you say?
then how do they afford to smoke and drink so much of it away, and no i am not kidding
now and then everybody gets alittle behind themselves, i have done it myself, but if someone constantly finds themself with no money then something is wrong
an example: my dad mentioned his retirement had grown by 10,000 one month, because the market was very good, to which my brothers friend said "time for a withdrawl!"
he never has enough for more than one month, yet he bought a new big screen TV, on time of course

we have people who dont care how much the item they are buying costs, just what the monthly payments are, this is a problem

tracking expenses is important, for example, when gas prices were bad, my car gets poor mileage compared to others (good for its class, a carbureted V8 muscle car that gets 18 mpg is pretty good) so i ran numbers, found i was losing an estimated $1000 per year on extra fuel over a car that gets 30mpg, since my car is fully owned (sunk cost), and there is no danger of it wearing out anytime soon, at least nothing i cant fix cheaply, the cost of buying another is higher than the loss incurred
other people dont run those kinds of numbers and squander money, thinking they are saving, i stopped eating lunch at school, saves me $10 a week, plus i have been gaining weight lately, i can stand to skip it
i should mention that numbers are not the end all and be all, but they should definitly be the begining

but i am rambling

so, for classes
Skills/occupational training
Budgeting
Time management

any other ideas
maybe some disagreements

[Drake]

I think your cause is noble mathurin, but your perspective seems a bit naive. We've thrown billions of dollars at this problem in every way imaginable and nothing has changed. You can provide all of the vocational assistance that you want. You still can't force someone to get out of bed everyday and be a productive citizen. The vision many have of decent, hard-working people down on their luck filling the welfare rolls just isn't reality. Many of them belong exactly where they are. And most of those, regardless of what you give them, will stay right where they are.

With all of the opportunities available in the U.S., I just don't see much room for excuses. Those who are willing to work, sacrifice, and make reasonable choices have no trouble making it in this country. Those unwilling to do this will always struggle. That we cannot, and should not change.

[The Grandmaster]

Seems like a reasonable idea.
But to part of your later post, I wouldn't skip to many lunches/meals if I were you, saving money or not. It's not all that healthy.

[mathurin]

Drake wrote: I think your cause is noble mathurin, but your perspective seems a bit naive. We've thrown billions of dollars at this problem in every way imaginable and nothing has changed. You can provide all of the vocational assistance that you want. You still can't force someone to get out of bed everyday and be a productive citizen. The vision many have of decent, hard-working people down on their luck filling the welfare rolls just isn't reality. Many of them belong exactly where they are. And most of those, regardless of what you give them, will stay right where they are.

With all of the opportunities available in the U.S., I just don't see much room for excuses. Those who are willing to work, sacrifice, and make reasonable choices have no trouble making it in this country. Those unwilling to do this will always struggle. That we cannot, and should not change.

i agree in large part, which is why i like this plan, as a college the recipients would be forced to toe the line or get out, instead of throwing away gov money on them, it is a method which will allow us to weed most of the deadbeats from the welfare system without totally removing it. it gives anybody a chance

[perdidochas]

The Grandmaster wrote: Seems like a reasonable idea.
But to part of your later post, I wouldn't skip to many lunches/meals if I were you, saving money or not. It's not all that healthy.

I concur. It would be better to make lunch at home and bring it to school.

[00timh]

This kind of stuff is great. What we should be doing is allowing the general public to pay these underpriviledged and those lacking skills to do them. The government is not actually saving much money by simply spending money on training programs and vocational programs. Teach them a trade or a skill but they still need access to the workplace. What better way to gain access into the workplace but by the workplace itself integrating them in.

[patrickt]

"i think that most of the people on the bottom rung of the ladder are there because they lack skills...."

I don't think so. That's the next to bottom, maybe. The bottom is occupied by drunks, junkies, and petty thieves who are happy enough with their lifestyle that they have absolutely no motivation to change it. They get SSI, medicaid, food stamps, housing subsidies, and other benefits. I have had some people laugh at me for working when not working was so great, from their perspective.

[patrickt]

"i think that most of the people on the bottom rung of the ladder are there because they lack skills...."

I don't think so. That's the next to bottom, maybe. The bottom is occupied by drunks, junkies, and petty thieves who are happy enough with their lifestyle that they have absolutely no motivation to change it. They get SSI, medicaid, food stamps, housing subsidies, and other benefits. I have had some people laugh at me for working when not working was so great, from their perspective.

When we help drunks and junkies stay drunk and stoned we're not doing them a favor but if we stop helping them maintain their addictions we're called heartless.

[The Grandmaster]

patrickt wrote: "i think that most of the people on the bottom rung of the ladder are there because they lack skills...."

I don't think so. That's the next to bottom, maybe. The bottom is occupied by drunks, junkies, and petty thieves who are happy enough with their lifestyle that they have absolutely no motivation to change it. They get SSI, medicaid, food stamps, housing subsidies, and other benefits. I have had some people laugh at me for working when not working was so great, from their perspective.

So laugh right back at them for being losers. Be like "Hows that vacation and new car working out for you........oooohhhhhh....yeeeaaahhhh...... I meant looking forward to a life of nothing and riding the bus....opps..."

Let them laugh. There is no reason to envy them. If you do, well, that lifestyle is always available to you I suppose.

[mathurin]

patrickt wrote: "i think that most of the people on the bottom rung of the ladder are there because they lack skills...."

I don't think so. That's the next to bottom, maybe. The bottom is occupied by drunks, junkies, and petty thieves who are happy enough with their lifestyle that they have absolutely no motivation to change it. They get SSI, medicaid, food stamps, housing subsidies, and other benefits. I have had some people laugh at me for working when not working was so great, from their perspective.

When we help drunks and junkies stay drunk and stoned we're not doing them a favor but if we stop helping them maintain their addictions we're called heartless.

i can also agree, this system is set up to weed them out, instead of getting a never-ending flow of free money, they get a year or so of chances, if you dont try, you fail and are thrown out of the program
yet it is not heartless because they had a chance

i dont know if i mentioned this, but it would include a drug test, rehab for those who fail and still want in
we could even force the rehab people to stay in dorms while in the "college"
treating them like children you say?
they are acting like children

[TNBiologist]

I like most of your ideas except they do not deal with the reality that some people are happy not working (wellfare queens). I agree there is a need to teach people a useful skill or trade abd to help those that want to kick addictions but there are people that are perfectly happy recieving the monthly check for not doing a thing. There needs to be a system (enforced) that requires people to "move up or out".

Put some kind of progress/time table system into effect. For example: Give someone X amount of time to kick their addiction (if they have one) and if not then they are out of the system and on the streets. If that person has kicked the addiction give them X amount of time to make progress towards their skill set. Once agian, if they fail to make progress then they are on the street. Once that person had completed their skill set give them X amount of time to find a job and personal housing and at teh end of X amount of time they are on the street again.

Make the time frame something obtainable but strick enough so people that just want to ride the system get weeded out. Pass and enforce wellfare fraud laws so you can punish people who wish to abuse teh system.

[mathurin]

yeah, i kind of covered that in the post right above yours

what you are talking about is exactly what i designed this to prevent or punish, without the chance of failure then not many will progress









so where are all those in favor of welfare, coming to its defense?

[curisz]

Very similar to some ideas me and Little Wimp came up with a while back. Check em out and keep the ball rolling.

http://www.politicalcrossfire.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9403&highlight=

http://www.politicalcrossfire.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32837&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

[Babylon_Horuv]

00timh wrote: This kind of stuff is great. What we should be doing is allowing the general public to pay these underpriviledged and those lacking skills to do them. The government is not actually saving much money by simply spending money on training programs and vocational programs. Teach them a trade or a skill but they still need access to the workplace. What better way to gain access into the workplace but by the workplace itself integrating them in.

That's what they do now, workfare basically, and with the current structure it is nonsense. Welfare ends up as a trap and either your time runs out, and you have only dead end skills that are no use becuase the new welfare recipients are cheaper, or you have another kid to give you more time on the welfare ride.