Political Crossfire Forums

[eynon]

gotta admit, I'm fired up about this movie:


"Flags of our Fathers" is now out, but I gotta admit, while I admire the hell outta the sacrifices of our Marines in that battle, the 21,000 Japanese kids who fought and died on that horrid piece of rock are among the greatest stands of all time, along with the Spartans at Thermopylae and the Texans at the Alamo. (standing against 80,000 veteran Marines is heroic by any measure)

my people fought and suffered in WW2, fighting against the people portrayed in this movie, but still, those kids should still be honored.

[Wizard From Oz]

I absolutely agree. To fight and die on that miserable lump of volcanic crap is tough.

Both sides took casualties that would normally stop a fighting force in its tracks. I have studied this battle a few times over the years, and I honestly dont know if I would have the courage to try and go through what those guys did

[eynon]

MG1962 wrote: I absolutely agree. To fight and die on that miserable lump of volcanic crap is tough.

Both sides took casualties that would normally stop a fighting force in its tracks. I have studied this battle a few times over the years, and I honestly dont know if I would have the courage to try and go through what those guys did

:tu: true that........the Marines that died are honored, and rightly so.......the Japanese deserve their part.

[cap'n queasy]

I don't agree with that at all. They got what they deserved for Pearl Harbor. Anyone stays in a fight when they are more scared of what's behind them than what is in front of them. The Japanese in WW2 were a fascist power and their soldiers were indoctrinated to be extremely brutal racial supremacists.

The atrocities they commited are some of the worst of all time. They slaughtered and enslaved millions of people. Not too mention some really bizarre atrocities like hunting down American GIs and native villagers for food when their supply lines were cut. I don't care if you are starving or not, that makes you inhuman and deserving of destruction. Any one who would rather eat other human beings than surrender has a screw loose if you ask me.

[Melcar]

cap'n queasy wrote: I don't agree with that at all. They got what they deserved for Pearl Harbor. Anyone stays in a fight when they are more scared of what's behind them than what is in front of them. The Japanese in WW2 were a fascist power and their soldiers were indoctrinated to be extremely brutal racial supremacists.

The atrocities they commited are some of the worst of all time. They slaughtered and enslaved millions of people. Not too mention some really bizarre atrocities like hunting down American GIs and native villagers for food when their supply lines were cut. I don't care if you are starving or not, that makes you inhuman and deserving of destruction. Any one who would rather eat other human beings than surrender has a screw loose if you ask me.

Whether you agree with the Japanese regime of the time or not is inconsequential. This will be a story about the soldiers themselves, and in my book, any soldier that dies for his country defending what he believes is right deserves some from of praise.

Edit: Nobody dare bring today's terrorists into the argument, because it's weak and has no real relevance.

[superskippy]

Curiously would you also feel good about honoring the Wermacht and Waffen SS troops who fought and died in some god forsaken place to the last man? The insane march of Wenck's troops to safety of the Allied lines? Certaintly great feats and "heroic" but would you also want to honor them?

[mendosan]

superskippy wrote: Curiously would you also feel good about honoring the Wermacht and Waffen SS troops who fought and died in some god forsaken place to the last man? The insane march of Wenck's troops to safety of the Allied lines? Certaintly great feats and "heroic" but would you also want to honor them?

Depends what the situation is really, Waffen SS is an obvious no, but the soldiers, little boys and old men that resisted the invasion of Berlin by the USSR yes.

[Simon De Montfort]

The Japanese treatment of POWs erases all sense of heroism that they may have earned in combat during the war.

[DSwain]

I would not honour these Japanese soldiers/civilians; they were fighting the allies of my country, killing your boys. Just as I would not honour the Japanese who fought against British and Commonwealth troops or Germans, Italians, Rumanians etc who fought against our side.

But I recognise that fighting men (and women) deserve recognition of their guts and their suffering. In this case, I certainly recognise the hardships suffered by the Japanese soldiery and citizenry and I acknowledge some of their extraordinary feats of soldiering. But honour them? No. That isn't my place - they weren't on our side.

That said, the movie looks good

[Spider]

cap'n queasy wrote: I don't agree with that at all. They got what they deserved for Pearl Harbor. Anyone stays in a fight when they are more scared of what's behind them than what is in front of them. The Japanese in WW2 were a fascist power and their soldiers were indoctrinated to be extremely brutal racial supremacists.

The atrocities they commited are some of the worst of all time. They slaughtered and enslaved millions of people. Not too mention some really bizarre atrocities like hunting down American GIs and native villagers for food when their supply lines were cut. I don't care if you are starving or not, that makes you inhuman and deserving of destruction. Any one who would rather eat other human beings than surrender has a screw loose if you ask me.


I can respect their individual courage, their suffering, but can I apply any sense of appreciation to Japanese military of this era?...not at all. And I fully agree with you on the level of atrocities commited by that organization....the rape of Nanking.....Jesus. Ethnic cleasing of the Chinese mainland...wholesale genocide by military units? theft of entire crops, cuasing famine and death to millions? Plain, basic physical torture or POWs? The training of woman and children in Japan to fight to the death with bamboo pikes against the forseen US invasion of Japan....? No, no, and no. They had to be stopped. They were at least as evil as their allies in Europe.

Anyways, going to see the movie tonight. Will post again with a thumbs up or down. 8:)

[Hotdog]

Simon De Montfort wrote: The Japanese treatment of POWs erases all sense of heroism that they may have earned in combat during the war.

This one sentence puts it all into its correct moral perspective. The moral character of the average Japanese male who fought under the flag of the Imperial Nipponese Army was totally rudderless and evil. Their moral compass was non-existent.

This was the national ethos of the Japanese character at the time.

No people whose national character was incapable of normal human decency and a proper empathy for the suffering of others should be 'honoured' or 'glorified' for their military prowess.

It's like constructing a movie that seeks to elicit public sympathy and admiration for the hard training and discipline that went into creating Hitler's Death Squads that roamed across Poland and Russia looking for Jews to murder in the Concentration camps.

Clint Eastwood deserves a boot up the arse for in effect propagandising on behalf of the Nipponese Army.

[Melcar]

These movies are not about morality. There are very little moral aspects when it comes to war. These movies are about the courage and soldiery of the fighting men on both sides. You have to view them from the perspective of each side and not pass judgement from your own predifined morals.

[cap'n queasy]

Melcar wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: I don't agree with that at all. They got what they deserved for Pearl Harbor. Anyone stays in a fight when they are more scared of what's behind them than what is in front of them. The Japanese in WW2 were a fascist power and their soldiers were indoctrinated to be extremely brutal racial supremacists.

The atrocities they commited are some of the worst of all time. They slaughtered and enslaved millions of people. Not too mention some really bizarre atrocities like hunting down American GIs and native villagers for food when their supply lines were cut. I don't care if you are starving or not, that makes you inhuman and deserving of destruction. Any one who would rather eat other human beings than surrender has a screw loose if you ask me.

Whether you agree with the Japanese regime of the time or not is inconsequential. This will be a story about the soldiers themselves, and in my book, any soldier that dies for his country defending what he believes is right deserves some from of praise.

Edit: Nobody dare bring today's terrorists into the argument, because it's weak and has no real relevance.

It has total relevence.

They are the progenitors of the exact same type of regime.
And I don't think a Nazi SS trooper deserves any praise because he gave his life for lebensraum and a life free from "being under the boot of the zionist entity".

Quite simply he was a murderer in the employ of a foul cause. I have more respect for the German who stood for something else, unfortunately they were generally slaughtered with the rest of society's "vermin".

[Hotdog]

Melcar wrote: These movies are not about morality. There are very little moral aspects when it comes to war. These movies are about the courage and soldiery of the fighting men on both sides. You have to view them from the perspective of each side and not pass judgement from your own predifined morals.

Poppycock. Putting a human face to these monsters is all part of an apologist effort to soften their profile and make them more 'acceptable' to the naive and the young.

It's typical leftwing moral relativism that's riding rough-shod over the bodies of countless allied solders and South East Asian civilians who died as the result of gratuitous and unnecessary Japanese cruelty.

Why doesn't Clint Eastwood instead direct a film which reveals to the public the sacrifices of US soldiers and their allies to remove the Taliban from Afghanistan and to remove a Police State tyrrant from Iraq?

He'll never do this, of course, because like all Leftwing arseholes he will not want to demonstrate any kind of approval or praise for the achievements of his own nationhood and its Western allies.

[Melcar]

Hotdog wrote: Melcar wrote: These movies are not about morality. There are very little moral aspects when it comes to war. These movies are about the courage and soldiery of the fighting men on both sides. You have to view them from the perspective of each side and not pass judgement from your own predifined morals.

Poppycock. Putting a human face to these monsters is all part of an apologist effort to soften their profile and make them more 'acceptable' to the naive and the young.

It's typical leftwing moral relativism that's riding rough-shod over the bodies of countless allied solders and South East Asian civilians who died as the result of gratuitous and unnecessary Japanese cruelty.

Why doesn't Clint Eastwood instead direct a film which reveals to the public the sacrifices of US soldiers and their allies to remove the Taliban from Afghanistan and to remove a Police State tyrrant from Iraq?

He'll never do this, of course, because like all Leftwing arseholes he will not want to demonstrate any kind of approval or praise for the achievements of his own nationhood and its Western allies.

How quick things turn political :roll: .
I guess no one is able to see these pictures in a rational and "scientific" light. It always has to turn into politics and "morality". You do know he made two films right, each one telling each side's stiory? Personally, as both a history and warfare enthusiast/afficionado, I will be seeing both these films.

[eynon]

thread livelier then I thought it would be:)

[bob.appleyard]

cap'n queasy wrote: I don't agree with that at all. They got what they deserved for Pearl Harbor.

Pearl Harbour was a military outpost in the Pacific, within bombing range of Japan, that was being stacked up with bombers, and with a Commander-in-Chief who was openly declaring his intent to bomb the hell out of them, to "make their paper cities burn." The Japanese state at this point was unquestionably one of the most authoritarian cess-pits of the 20th Century, and I would judge their actions in Pearl Harbour to be aggression. Under the doctrine of preventive war (dressed up as pre-emptive war, as all wars of prevention are), it was completely justified.

Those who accept the doctrine of preventive war should agree with their actions in this case, and not judge the ensuing war as their responsibility. If they support prevention dressed up as pre-emption in some cases (e.g. when they are the perpetrators) but not in others (e.g. when they are the victims) then they are a complete hypocrite, and should never open their mouth in matters of right and wrong and expect to be taken seriously.

[The Russian]

It is bitter irony that nobody chooses to honor the soviet dead that fought on the same side as the allies, and without whose sacrifices millions upon millions of american, british and french would have died whether the normany invasion succeded or not, with or without hitler entering eastern europe with the majority of his forces. Nor are they recognized for majorly helping bring an end to the pacific conflict with Operation August Storm.

You would rather recognize your cold war allie that commited countles atrocities not to their own men but YOURS and YOUR allies? It should not be forgotten that China was a US allie as well, and they could not believe their eyes when the US supported Japan after the war, flying in the face of human sensibility for the atrocities commited across the pacific and in china with things like the rape of nan king and canibalism.

Sometimes I fear I dont understand the american psyche when it contradicts with what I have learned as being kind, humane, and reasonable.

And to THIS DAY the Japanese REFUSE to apolagise for what they did in china... I mean mearly apolagize... and their current presidenial leader visited the shrine dedicated to the leaders of the crime against humanity that was perpetrated on chinese soil by the japanese.

[DSwain]

The Russian wrote: It is bitter irony that nobody chooses to honor the soviet dead that fought on the same side as the allies, and without whose sacrifices millions upon millions of american, british and french would have died whether the normany invasion succeded or not, with or without hitler entering eastern europe with the majority of his forces. Nor are they recognized for majorly helping bring an end to the pacific conflict with Operation August Storm.

You would rather recognize your cold war allie that commited countles atrocities not to their own men but YOURS and YOUR allies? It should not be forgotten that China was a US allie as well, and they could not believe their eyes when the US supported Japan after the war, flying in the face of human sensibility for the atrocities commited across the pacific and in china with things like the rape of nan king and canibalism.

Sometimes I fear I dont understand the american psyche when it contradicts with what I have learned as being kind, humane, and reasonable.

And to THIS DAY the Japanese REFUSE to apolagise for what they did in china... I mean mearly apolagize... and their current presidenial leader visited the shrine dedicated to the leaders of the crime against humanity that was perpetrated on chinese soil by the japanese.

Where has anyone in this thread denigrated the tens of millions of Soviet dead from WW2? The Soviets were our allies and I am happy to salute and honour them - ditto the Generalissimo and the Nationalists in China.

[Hotdog]

And I also salute the Brazilians who were the only South Americans to enter WW2 on the side of the allies.

:-D