Political Crossfire Forums

mendosan · Joined: 02 May 2006 Posts: 2332

slitedeviance wrote: mendosan wrote: Israel doesn't trust Hamas nor should you or I, they just want to do a Hezzbollah get proper training from Iran and some proper equipment then goad Israel into attacking first.

So you say that the Palestinians need to take steps towards peace, a 10 year ceasefire is offered and your opinion is "We can't trust these guys so no deal!".

How could Hamas earn this "trust" which they apparently need?

If a ceasefire is just a pause in a conflict and not a resolution its pointless you just prolong a conflict so more people die, Hamas can earn trust by recognizing Israel only then can the a new peace process be feasible.

All this talk of a 10 year ceasefire is rubbish, Hamas is partially supported because its seen as an armed resistance group and not a solely political movement, so there betraying the electorate with a 10 year peace anyway.

They want to stop Israels attacks because only then can they rearm and retrain there militants. There frighten of being stomped on militarily like there being at this very moment.

today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=2006-11-02T150419Z_01_L12263400_RTRUKOC_0_US-MIDEAST.xml&pageNumber=2&imageid=&cap=&sz=13&WTModLoc=NewsArt-C1-ArticlePage2

slitedeviance · Joined: 02 Sep 2006 Posts: 1507

mendosan wrote: They want to stop Israels attacks because only then can they rearm and retrain there militants. There frighten of being stomped on militarily like there being at this very moment.

Any evidence to support this or are we (again) looking at speculation used to justify the continued subjugation of a populace?

mendosan · Joined: 02 May 2006 Posts: 2332

slitedeviance wrote: mendosan wrote: They want to stop Israels attacks because only then can they rearm and retrain there militants. There frighten of being stomped on militarily like there being at this very moment.

Any evidence to support this or are we (again) looking at speculation used to justify the continued subjugation of a populace? #

Hamas doesn't gain anything from a cease fire other than breathing space. Its Islamist financiers (yes even from the UK) don't want a 2 state solution they want the destruction of Israel.
[url]
http://www.infoisrael.net/cgi-local/text.pl?source=2/a/ii/011120061[/url]

Quote: Yoav Galant warned that Hamas is instituting procedures to create a fully fledged “professional" army in Gaza.

Quote: “Hamas is establishing an organized division with a capability against tanks and with missiles that could reach threatening distances,

Quote: “We are willing to form an army like every country ... an army to defend our people against aggression," Hamas political chief Khaled Mashaal said, on Saturday 28 January 2006 from Damascus.

Quote: “We will not recognize the Israeli occupation but we are realistic and we know things are done gradually [as] being against occupation does not mean I can cancel Israel in moments,"

Hamas is acting in an incredibly astute way, it knows it can buy time with a ceasefire plus earn brownie points from left wingers in the west, a stroke of political genius.

Anyone who actual believes there should be peace between Israel and the Palestinians wouldn't support this fake peace offer.

slitedeviance · Joined: 02 Sep 2006 Posts: 1507

mendosan wrote: Anyone who actual believes there should be peace between Israel and the Palestinians wouldn't support this fake peace offer.

And would support what instead?

mendosan · Joined: 02 May 2006 Posts: 2332

slitedeviance wrote: mendosan wrote: Anyone who actual believes there should be peace between Israel and the Palestinians wouldn't support this fake peace offer.

And would support what instead?

Hamas recognizing Israel, and binding international arbitration of borders (the security fence areas which are disputed.)

slitedeviance · Joined: 02 Sep 2006 Posts: 1507

mendosan wrote: Hamas recognizing Israel

But we both know this won't happen overnight, so clearly there have to be steps towards this.

I don't like What If's but...

What if Israel and Hamas signed the accord. What if Hamas actually took the time to rebuild Palestine (and judging by their record for providing social and medical assistance they are probably the best people for this)? Surely if this could be maintained with both sides abiding by the terms of the accord then it would be the best path forward for peace.

If Palestine is to become an independant state they will have to have a military force and a police force. I can fully understand that there are schools of thought which run along the lines of "It's ten years for them to re-arm and prepare", but the same is true for Israel. There is no way in ten years that Hamas or a Palestinian Authority would be able to arm to a point of actually being able to threaten the existence of the Israeli state. At the same time the IDF will continue to recruit, arm and develop.

Quote: and binding international arbitration of borders (the security fence areas which are disputed.)

The borders drawn up by the security fence are heavily disputed, and for good reason. They have gone past the point of simple defense and have moved on to providing protection for planned expansion into the West Bank.

mendosan · Joined: 02 May 2006 Posts: 2332

Quote: What if Israel and Hamas signed the accord. What if Hamas actually took the time to rebuild Palestine (and judging by their record for providing social and medical assistance they are probably the best people for this)? Surely if this could be maintained with both sides abiding by the terms of the accord then it would be the best path forward for peace.

That would be great, i don't think it will happen that way, I see Hamas receiving clandestine weapon shipments from Iran and Syria, the merging of all Islamic militias in Palestine, the training of irregular forces by Iranian revolutionary guards and eventually the ceasefire being shattered by massive Israeli air strikes and raids into Gaza and the West Bank and there being huge civillian loss of life.

Quote: The borders drawn up by the security fence are heavily disputed, and for good reason. They have gone past the point of simple defense and have moved on to providing protection for planned expansion into the West Bank.

Which is why the Palestinians need to recognize Israel and get the peace process moving again ASAP, before Israel takes more land that there not gonna see agian.

mendosan · Joined: 02 May 2006 Posts: 2332

Quote: What if Israel and Hamas signed the accord. What if Hamas actually took the time to rebuild Palestine (and judging by their record for providing social and medical assistance they are probably the best people for this)? Surely if this could be maintained with both sides abiding by the terms of the accord then it would be the best path forward for peace.

That would be great, i don't think it will happen that way, I see Hamas receiving clandestine weapon shipments from Iran and Syria, the merging of all Islamic militias in Palestine, the training of irregular forces by Iranian revolutionary guards and eventually the ceasefire being shattered by massive Israeli air strikes and raids into Gaza and the West Bank and there being huge civillian loss of life.

Quote: The borders drawn up by the security fence are heavily disputed, and for good reason. They have gone past the point of simple defense and have moved on to providing protection for planned expansion into the West Bank.

Which is why the Palestinians need to recognize Israel and get the peace process moving again ASAP, before Israel takes more land that there not gonna see agian.

emerald · Joined: 05 Apr 2005 Posts: 6934 Location: uk

Quote: If a ceasefire is just a pause in a conflict and not a resolution its pointless you just prolong a conflict so more people die, Hamas can earn trust by recognizing Israel only then can the a new peace process be feasible.

All this talk of a 10 year ceasefire is rubbish, Hamas is partially supported because its seen as an armed resistance group and not a solely political movement, so there betraying the electorate with a 10 year peace anyway.

They want to stop Israels attacks because only then can they rearm and retrain there militants. There frighten of being stomped on militarily like there being at this very moment.

the point is that a ceasefire where peace is the objective, where both sides can learn to 'trust' one another without either side attacking will provide the time for a change in attitude, for the palestinians to be able to see that a 2 state solution is the only way to go, and for israel to see that the palestinians are serious about this.

it's all well and dandy to think well they should just recognize isael and get on with it, but thats not going to happen right now, so it becomes a choice of either, lets bang our heads on the wall and carry on with things as they currently are (i.e. a mess) or try out the idea of a ceasefire, some time for peace and see how things go from there. i dont understand how anyone loses out.

mendosan · Joined: 02 May 2006 Posts: 2332

emerald wrote: Quote: If a ceasefire is just a pause in a conflict and not a resolution its pointless you just prolong a conflict so more people die, Hamas can earn trust by recognizing Israel only then can the a new peace process be feasible.

All this talk of a 10 year ceasefire is rubbish, Hamas is partially supported because its seen as an armed resistance group and not a solely political movement, so there betraying the electorate with a 10 year peace anyway.

They want to stop Israels attacks because only then can they rearm and retrain there militants. There frighten of being stomped on militarily like there being at this very moment.

the point is that a ceasefire where peace is the objective, where both sides can learn to 'trust' one another without either side attacking will provide the time for a change in attitude, for the Palestinians to be able to see that a 2 state solution is the only way to go, and for israel to see that the Palestinians are serious about this.

it's all well and dandy to think well they should just recognize isael and get on with it, but thats not going to happen right now, so it becomes a choice of either, lets bang our heads on the wall and carry on with things as they currently are (i.e. a mess) or try out the idea of a ceasefire, some time for peace and see how things go from there. i dont understand how anyone loses out.

Because a Ceasefire is just an excuse for a Hamas arms build up, this offensive in Gaza is to stop Hamas being armed with more advanced rockets and "doing a Hezzbollah", Israel is not going to commit to a ceasefire unless its recognized as a state, and its government is not gonna stand by and commit to a ceasefire and let Hamas rearm.

I really don't think people realize that Hamas is funded from, Iran and Syria, plus from radical mosques and groups in Europe and North America, the people that fund Hamas don't want the Palestinians to live in peace they want them to suffer so they can use there suffering to radicalize Muslims, and garner support for there precarious regimes.

The Palestinians are just being used, and its disgusting that people can't recognize this, why do people think the US and the EU withdrew funding, we only funded them in the first place because we could see how the issue was being used by our enemys, and not for alturistic reasons.

emerald · Joined: 05 Apr 2005 Posts: 6934 Location: uk

Quote: Because a Ceasefire is just an excuse for a Hamas arms build up, this offensive in Gaza is to stop Hamas being armed with more advanced rockets and "doing a Hezzbollah", Israel is not going to commit to a ceasefire unless its recognized as a state, and its government is not gonna stand by and commit to a ceasefire and let Hamas rearm.

I really don't think people realize that Hamas is funded from, Iran and Syria, plus from radical mosques and groups in Europe and North America, the people that fund Hamas don't want the Palestinians to live in peace they want them to suffer so they can use there suffering to radicalize Muslims, and garner support for there precarious regimes.

The Palestinians are just being used, and its disgusting that people can't recognize this, why do people think the US and the EU withdrew funding, we only funded them in the first place because we could see how the issue was being used by our enemys, and not for alturistic reasons.

the EU and US were fine about sending money in aid to palestine when fatah were in power, and alst time i checked yassir arafat was fatahs leader, a corrupt man, a man that the west considered a terrorist for a huge number of incidents, and whose group were also attacking israel and israeli's. so tell me why it's ok to fund one terrorist and not another? or is it only when it suits you? and israel will never trust palestine, but then again i doubt palestinians will ever trust israeli, so what do you do? whats your solution? allow israel to 'defend' itself.....the all time excuse for all offensives and any civilian deaths..while palestinians grow to hate them even more and them attacking back......thats a great solution.carry on as normal.