Political Crossfire Forums

bunny · Joined: 14 Oct 2006 Posts: 584

Quote: Israeli jets stage mock Lebanese raids

EIRUT, Lebanon — Israeli fighter jets staged mock raids over Hezbollah strongholds in south Beirut on Tuesday in the heaviest show of air power over Lebanon since an August cease-fire ended the war between Israel and the guerillas.

The warplanes dived low over the southern suburbs at least six times before roaring back into the sky.

Lebanese security officials said eight Israeli jets had crossed the border and dispersed over southern and central Lebanon. Concerned residents took to rooftops and balconies to watch the mock raids over south Beirut.

In south Lebanon, officials and witnesses reported Israeli planes flying low over the towns of Nabatiyeh and Tyre.

The Israeli military refused to confirm that its planes had flown over Beirut or other areas, saying it does not release details of military operations.

Linkage

Seems like Israel is intent on continuing its jingoistic ways, terrorizing it's neighbors with scare tactics & intimidation....

Also, Israel jets buzz'd & fired upon a German ship on peace keeping mission last week...

Naturally, they deny everything.

Do actions such as these; help or hurt the situation in the middle east?

MoscowMatt · Joined: 16 Sep 2005 Posts: 1458 Location: UK / Hungary

bunny wrote: Quote: Israeli jets stage mock Lebanese raids

EIRUT, Lebanon — Israeli fighter jets staged mock raids over Hezbollah strongholds in south Beirut on Tuesday in the heaviest show of air power over Lebanon since an August cease-fire ended the war between Israel and the guerillas.

The warplanes dived low over the southern suburbs at least six times before roaring back into the sky.

Lebanese security officials said eight Israeli jets had crossed the border and dispersed over southern and central Lebanon. Concerned residents took to rooftops and balconies to watch the mock raids over south Beirut.

In south Lebanon, officials and witnesses reported Israeli planes flying low over the towns of Nabatiyeh and Tyre.

The Israeli military refused to confirm that its planes had flown over Beirut or other areas, saying it does not release details of military operations.

Linkage

Seems like Israel is intent on continuing its jingoistic ways, terrorizing it's neighbors with scare tactics & intimidation....

Also, Israel jets buzz'd & fired upon a German ship on peace keeping mission last week...

Naturally, they deny everything.

Do actions such as these; help or hurt the situation in the middle east?

For once you seem to make a good point. There is no need for these actions of the Israeli airforce and it is far from helpful. Unless of course they know something we don't!!

The incident with the German ship also seems bizarre and I'm surprised it has not been discussed more on here. Well not that I have seen yet anyway.

slitedeviance · Joined: 02 Sep 2006 Posts: 1507

MoscowMatt wrote: For once you seem to make a good point. There is no need for these actions of the Israeli airforce and it is far from helpful. Unless of course they know something we don't!!

The incident with the German ship also seems bizarre and I'm surprised it has not been discussed more on here. Well not that I have seen yet anyway.

It was discussed for a few posts but the circs are very unclear (seems the IDF are saying the ship did not get fired upon as it was apparently a flare, and the Germans are unsure as the best way to proceed, I'll find linkage).

In terms of this action I can't see how this will aid Israel. Everyone in Lebanon is aware of what the IDF is capable of, and these sorts of flyovers would surely just push more and more support Hizbollahs way.

jimmyz · Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 1:06 pm Post subject:

A bombing sortie by an aircraft squadron does not "disperse".The formation hits the target together.there was no "mock raid".They were gathering intel on the new Hezbollah infrastructure rebuilding what was flattened and on the weapons now free-flowing to Hezbollah.

link - http://www.debka.com/

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 7442 Location: Petah Tikva

Quote: Seems like Israel is intent on continuing its jingoistic ways, terrorizing it's neighbors with scare tactics & intimidation....

Lebanon has no room to complain, if they cannot or will not reign in the private army and state in the south then we will have to take our security into our own hands which now involves activites in Lebanon.

Quote: Also, Israel jets buzz'd & fired upon a German ship on peace keeping mission last week...

No we intercepted an unidentifed helicopter and made a fly over of the ship.

slitedeviance · Joined: 02 Sep 2006 Posts: 1507

superskippy wrote: Lebanon has no room to complain, if they cannot or will not reign in the private army and state in the south then we will have to take our security into our own hands which now involves activites in Lebanon.

So how much time do you give Lebanon to reign in a force superior in terms of capability and support when compared to their own armed forces?

I mean, there is obviously a time by which you expect Lebanon to have acheived this, so what course of action are you expecting to see over what timescale?

bunny · Joined: 14 Oct 2006 Posts: 584

superskippy wrote:
Lebanon has no room to complain, if they cannot or will not reign in the private army and state in the south then we will have to take our security into our own hands which now involves activites in Lebanon.

Lebanon has every reason to complain, it's sovereignty is being violated.
Would Israel stand for such behaviour onto itslef?

superskippy wrote: No we intercepted an unidentifed helicopter and made a fly over of the ship.

Not according to the German's, who say the Israeli Jets fired upon them!

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 7442 Location: Petah Tikva

Quote: Lebanon has every reason to complain, it's sovereignty is being violated.

Lebanon cannot claim both ways, they either exert control over Hezbollah, or Hezbollah is a seperate entity. As it stands Hezbollah is a private army in South Lebanon dictating the foriegn policy of Beirut by embroiling them in a war with Israel and negotiating ceasefires and treaties independent of Beirut. We are acting in accordance to the threat from Hezbollah, if Beirut decides to take control or asks for assistance in taking control of their country and bringing Hezbollah under control then perhaps we wont have a problam any longer. However until then we are going to deal with Hezbollah accordingly. If Lebanon wishes to complain than so be it.

Quote: Would Israel stand for such behaviour onto itslef?

If we had a private army several thousand strong with modern equipment wresting control of part of Israel and forcing a punishing war with our neighbors upon us, then I would hope that a nation would intervene to crush that group so that we could re-exert control over our own country.

Quote: Not according to the German's, who say the Israeli Jets fired upon them!

They said we fired warning shots around the vessel, we never struck the ship nor do the Germans claim that. I could see a pilot perhaps shooting up some water near the ship, not that there is any evidence to say that even happened.

Quote: So how much time do you give Lebanon to reign in a force superior in terms of capability and support when compared to their own armed forces?

All they have to do is step before the world and ask for help and it would come. I guarentee an international force if given mandate from Beirut would help take control of Hezbollah. Either by sending material and support, or by sending troops of their own. They have many routes they could pursue as of yet they have taken none and simply aquiesced to Hezbollah's growth in power.

Quote: I mean, there is obviously a time by which you expect Lebanon to have acheived this, so what course of action are you expecting to see over what timescale?

I would have expected them to stop making excuses a decade ago, at this point it is clear that Lebanon is not a completely free agent. Hezbollah and the Lebanese government are seperate entities with their own political command and armed forces and territorial control. Thus Lebanon cannot possibly claim that we are making a grave violation of their soveriengty when they cannot even distinguish where their own power and soveriengty begins.

bunny · Joined: 14 Oct 2006 Posts: 584

superskippy wrote:

Lebanon cannot claim both ways

Sure they can! They are dealing with Hezbollah, this is a processonto itself. One that is independant of the fact that Israeli war planes are buzzing the nations capital, amonsgt other civilian centers, invading Lebanese airspace.

After the recent conflict, this is a move that does not reflect well against Israel, imo, and makes them look like the warmongers I believe they are.

superskippy wrote: They said we fired warning shots around the vessel, we never struck the ship nor do the Germans claim that. I could see a pilot perhaps shooting up some water near the ship, not that there is any evidence to say that even happened.

And that makes it okay? Firing at a peace keeping force sounds very dodgey to me.

bunny · Joined: 14 Oct 2006 Posts: 584

superskippy wrote:

No we intercepted an unidentifed helicopter and made a fly over of the ship.

Oh, just a fly over, so innocent, like nothing happened....

superskippy wrote:
They said we fired warning shots around the vessel, we never struck the ship nor do the Germans claim that. I could see a pilot perhaps shooting up some water near the ship, not that there is any evidence to say that even happened.

Oh, wait. Now you are firing at that ship... the truth slowly comes out, eh. I wonder else will come to light....

slitedeviance · Joined: 02 Sep 2006 Posts: 1507

superskippy wrote: I would have expected them to stop making excuses a decade ago

But do you accept that with the levels and type of occupation that has gone on in Lebanon for the last 25 odd years, it hasn't exactly had a government able to take proactive steps. I mean, even if they had been able to solve the Hizbollah problem 10 years ago, the Syrian occupation would have put paid to any hopes of a united Lebanon in this respect.

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 7442 Location: Petah Tikva

Quote: Sure they can! They are dealing with Hezbollah, this is a processonto itself. One that is independant of the fact that Israeli war planes are buzzing the nations capital, amonsgt other civilian centers, invading Lebanese airspace.

If they can claim both then we have no reason to stop the flights then do we. As for dealing with Hezbollah dont even try they have done nothing to curb Hezbollah or bring them under the heel of the government. They are powerless in the face of Hezbollah and if they stay paralyzed we will act according to our own security interests.

Quote: After the recent conflict, this is a move that does not reflect well against Israel, imo, and makes them look like the warmongers I believe they are.

We can live with that compared to what we potentially lose by not making the over flights.

Quote: And that makes it okay? Firing at a peace keeping force sounds very dodgey to me.

It makes it nothing. I could see an Israeli pilot doing it as a jab at the Germans to be specefic. Again no evidence exists that even that much happened.

Quote: Oh, just a fly over, so innocent, like nothing happened....

Yes the most common military aerial manuever in history of the world. We sent some planes to see what was going on and identify the route of the helicopter.

Quote: Oh, wait. Now you are firing at that ship... the truth slowly comes out, eh. I wonder else will come to light....

I elaborated because you seemed to imply we might have struck the ship or fired upon it. Again no evidence exists for any discharge of ammunition at all.

bunny · Joined: 14 Oct 2006 Posts: 584

superskippy wrote:
If they can claim both then we have no reason to stop the flights then do we.

Wow, you are living up to the definition of a jingoist.

Why would you not want to stop the flights? Unless you enjoy intimidating a civilian populous, and violating the sovereignty of your neighbors - with what could be considered an act of war, on Israel's behalf.

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 7442 Location: Petah Tikva

Quote: Why would you not want to stop the flights? Unless you enjoy intimidating a civilian populous, and violating the sovereignty of your neighbors - with what could be considered an act of war, on Israel's behalf.

We wouldnt stop the flights because it is not in our own security interest to do so. Lebanon has no ability to control Hezbollah a seperate entity within Lebanon either they control them or we have the right to act accordingly against them. As for your claiming it an act of war, we are already at war a ceasefire doesnt end the war it halts the firing of weapons. And if you recognize that ceasefire between Hezbollah and Israel then you also tacitly recognize that Hezbollah is a seperate force in Lebanon outside the sphere of the control of Beirut, and in that circumstance we obviously would not be heeding Beirut when we took action to prepare or aid ourselves against Hezbollah.

bunny · Joined: 14 Oct 2006 Posts: 584

superskippy wrote:
We wouldnt stop the flights because it is not in our own security interest to do so.

In doing so, Israel is simply showimg itself to be a belligerent neighbor, in violation of mentioned cease-fire, and empowering a reason for hezbollah to coexist within Lebanon.

Furthermore, as a political entity, Hezbollah has a right to exist, as deemed by the people, no?

ALi* · Joined: 20 Sep 2006 Posts: 427 Location: Beirut

Quote: We wouldnt stop the flights because it is not in our own security interest to do so.
wooow :lol: no comment!

hehe as for the flights today... man they are soo desperate to accomplish "sumthing" i mean "ANYTHING" in lebanon... plz they are pethetic
we dont have air defence... thats y they r doing it or else they r cowards... they wouldnt even think abt that!

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 7442 Location: Petah Tikva

Quote: In doing so, Israel is simply showimg itself to be a belligerent neighbor, in violation of mentioned cease-fire, and empowering a reason for hezbollah to coexist within Lebanon.

Belligerent neighbor? If that is what we call action against a quasi-state which launched an attack upon us then so be it. As you seem to recognize the ceasefire do you not also see how you thus tacitly accept that Hezbollah has become an independent entity?

Quote: Furthermore, as a political entity, Hezbollah has a right to exist, as deemed by the people, no?

It isnt relivent, Hezbollah as a political entity also commands an armed force capable if not stronger then the LDF, as well as vast stocks of arms and ammunition, and virtual administration of the southern half of the country. It's right to exist isnt relivent what is relivent is Beiruts claim that we are violating their airspace and committing warlike acts when in fact they cannot keep control of the quasi state that has been the other party in the recent war. It is telling when a war in Lebanon doesnt involve Lebanon yet still has two opposing forces.

bunny · Joined: 14 Oct 2006 Posts: 584

superskippy wrote:
It isnt relivent, Hezbollah as a political entity also commands an armed force capable if not stronger then the LDF

You mean the IDF, who hezbollah just defeated, in not allowing Israel to complete its objective, in turn causing Israel to fail. 8:)

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 7442 Location: Petah Tikva

Quote: You mean the IDF, who hezbollah just defeated, in not allowing Israel to complete its objective, in turn causing Israel to fail.

Hezbollah survived, if you wish to term that as defeating the IDF that is your choice. And no I meant exactly what I said.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 15233 Location: On Earth

Title post: this is exactly the type of stuff I talked about. Israel has been intimidating Hizbullah like this for quite a while now.