Political Crossfire Forums

[Enlightened Despot]

lucidnightmare wrote: It isn't collective punishment as much as it is a lack of anything else that can be done.

I believe if Islam was taken out of the mix and they were just dealing with nationalism a deal would have already been made.But there is the problem of the god gave me land idea and the seeming inability of fundamentalist Muslims to coexist with anyone unless they are busted down to second class citizenship.Like most any fundamentalist are.

They like to pat themselves on the back for being tolerant when they don't cut your head off and "allow' others to live with them.But there is never equal status of minority religions or people.

Unless I am wrong do not the Israelis (those who are jews) belive that God granted that land to them and only them and they have the right to dispense it in whatever manner they find fit ? If so then , how are the different from the fundamentalists ?

[Snake]

That's the foundation many countries were founded on...

[Enlightened Despot]

Kamel wrote: That's the foundation many countries were founded on...

Including what was once Palestine ?

[bunny]

CountryGuy wrote:
Please show me via a reputable source where Israeli forces have directly targeted civilians -- I'm not talking about civilians in the presence of a Hamas leader, those engaged in attacking troops, etc., but cases where Israel was specifically trying to kill civilians just to slaughter them.

I'm sorry, maybe you never understood when I said the IDF operates in the Occupied Territories with no legal authority, with impunity, in violation of international treaties.

CountryGuy wrote: Now, compare that to Hamas, people who are practically joyful when they blow up a pizza parlor.

Replace the people of Palestine, with Americans, and then you would see real terrorism, if Americans were placed in teh same situation, with the same tactics deployed onto them, the situation would be much more violent, imo

What are you trying to prove? That 40 years of oppression, occupation & tyranny do indeed breed terrorism, revenge & violence...

[tmoore]

bunny wrote: superskippy wrote: The Nazi's also built schools, rebuilt the German economy, and lifted it's people out from poverty. They were however still evil, and still horrible.

So we are comparing the Nazi's to Hamas already... :roll:


(quick, next person who says something critical of Israel gets labeled an Anti-Semite)

Did you know that one of the best selling books in the Arab world is Mein Kempf

If you go this links, you will see that the comparison could be very real

http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/amin_en.html

http://aval31.free.fr/anglais.htm

[Snake]

Enlightened Despot wrote: Including what was once Palestine ? No, because Palestine isn't a country.

[CountryGuy]

bunny wrote: CountryGuy wrote:
Please show me via a reputable source where Israeli forces have directly targeted civilians -- I'm not talking about civilians in the presence of a Hamas leader, those engaged in attacking troops, etc., but cases where Israel was specifically trying to kill civilians just to slaughter them.

I'm sorry, maybe you never understood when I said the IDF operates in the Occupied Territories with no legal authority, with impunity, in violation of international treaties.

CountryGuy wrote: Now, compare that to Hamas, people who are practically joyful when they blow up a pizza parlor.

Replace the people of Palestine, with Americans, and then you would see real terrorism, if Americans were placed in teh same situation, with the same tactics deployed onto them, the situation would be much more violent, imo

What are you trying to prove? That 40 years of oppression, occupation & tyranny do indeed breed terrorism, revenge & violence...

Legal authority or not, you still haven't answered the question. And I'm not about to give them a free pass to kill people because of "40 years of oppression". How many of those years have they preferred blowing up airliners, blowing up buildings, etc.? No, taking out agression on babies and mothers AS YOUR PRIMARY TARGET has never been acceptable.

[bunny]

CountryGuy wrote:
Legal authority or not, you still haven't answered the question.

The legal authority under which the IDF operates in the Occupied Territories makes your question moot... However, prehaps I could bring your attention to the recent disproportiante civilian attacks of the IDF carried out upon the civilians in Lebanon, not to mention targeting civilians by closing borders, targeting power stations & other means of civilian infrastructure within Gaza & the West Bank, all of which, dipsense a collective punishment, targeting all civilians...

Or does, by your standard, tagerting civilians, only apply when done so via; bullet, tank sheel, or missle.

CountryGuy wrote: And I'm not about to give them a free pass to kill people because of "40 years of oppression".

No ones asking for a "free pass". I'm just bring your attention to the causality of the relationship

you can ignore it all you like

CountryGuy wrote: How many of those years have they preferred blowing up airliners,

Link to Hamas doing this

CountryGuy wrote: blowing up buildings, etc.?

Link to Hamas doing this


CountryGuy wrote: No, taking out agression on babies and mothers AS YOUR PRIMARY TARGET has never been acceptable.

Link to Babies & mothers as primary targets of Hamas


------


please, spare me your BS, wouldya?

[Enlightened Despot]

Kamel wrote: Enlightened Despot wrote: Including what was once Palestine ? No, because Palestine isn't a country.

I said once didn't I ?

[Enlightened Despot]

The majority of those Israelis killed by palestianians are soldiers believe it or not.

What's interesting is that the Geneva convention (which americans and Israelis disregard) does indeed allow a occupied population to resist that occupation with arms...as in fire arms. Although only at the soldiers.

[Snake]

Perhaps you can find something, because I'm finding it incredibly difficult to confirm that Palestine was ever recognised as a country.

If it's not a country, Geneva's rules don't apply.

[lovebush]

Enlightened Despot wrote: Kamel wrote: That's the foundation many countries were founded on...

Including what was once Palestine ?

Palestine? the Palestinians have not ever been a sovern state. control over that piece of real estate has changed hands more than probably any other part of the globe.

[Bonobo]

I'll adit I'm suprised it took 5 posts to descend into the standard isreal palistine debate. Time for me to wade on in..

First of all to the person suggesting 'Some American gangs could run a country better than Palistinians', I know racism apparently isn't really racism when it's just the Palistinians being insulted, but less of it would still be appreciated.

With regards to Israel targetting civilians, the use of phospherous flares, banned as I'm sure you all know under international law, results in horrendous, spread fire mass casualties. And not just casualties, effectively torture. Deaths can entail days of suffering. All this because there was apparently a suspected hamas member in the area.

Can you imagine this happening in any Western country? The police suspect a fugitive is in a neighbourhood so they decide to put anyone in the area through a death worse than most suffered even in war?
Hell, can you imagine any security force sacrificing one building to get to the terorrist?
Let us even add the international element. Let us say a Frenchman has bombed London killing 10 people, and fled to a suburb in Paris.

So the English, because we think we know where he is, go in and level a few buildings. It's so laughably unimaginable.
Equally so is it unimagineable that Israel would behave this way were it America, or any other World power they were dealing with. Such laughably racist standards are employed by a government, and this is where much of the anti Palistinian argument falls down.

While I concede many actions commited by Hamas are indefensible, these are the actions of militants, of civilians who have had their homes taken and all the other reasons I could spend 5 pages listing.

There is no way you can stop orphan wanting to take revenge unless you stop the reason for revenge.

This is in stark contrast with Israel. If they decided to, they could treat every innocent Palistinian as they would any other human, and the groups preaching violence will stop being abe to recruit. Believe it or not, when a 15 year old sees the what he has been told are invading jews kill his family, when he sign up to be a suicide bomber it's not some crazy fanatical religous belief, it's a some would say perfectly expectable response.

There is no international force that can stop these people from wanting to sign up. There is no signal that can be given for the teenagers to stop throwing rocks and risking their lives against the brave Iraqi tanks.

So there is only one solution to stop the violence I can see.

[bunny]

Kamel wrote: Perhaps you can find something, because I'm finding it incredibly difficult to confirm that Palestine was ever recognised as a country.

If it's not a country, Geneva's rules don't apply.

An Occupying Force has rules it need to follow, that Israel is breaking, on a daily basis, in violation of the geneva conventions. The fact that Palestine is not an official country, is also a moot point.

[The Russian]

At your request, heres the story about how Hamas justifies the targeted killing of hundreds of children at once: http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=2&x_article=756

The 5 paragraphs from Hamas are then followed by the show of hipocricy. Heres the quote. And this article is old, not updated since 2004.

Quote: Palestinian terrorists have deliberately targeted children in numerous attacks, recently and in years past. The children were not accidental victims, but were intentionally shot or bombed. For example:

* March 5, 2003, Palestinian terrorists chose to bomb Bus 37 in Haifa shortly after school let out. The bus is on a school route and 9 schoolchildren were among the 17 killed in that attack. Dozens of children were wounded.

* December 3, 2003, Palestinian terrorists planned to blow up schoolchildren at the Ort Alon High School in Yokneam, the sister city of St. Louis. Thankfully, due to Israeli intelligence sources and the security fence, the Israelis were able to catch the bombers before they reached the school.

* On May 2, 2004, terrorists ambushed the car of Tali Hatuel, who was 9 months pregnant, and shot her and her four young daughters, aged 2, 7, 9 and 11. It was daylight and the terrorists obviously knew they were killing four small children because they shot them all at point blank range.

Suicide terrorists see exactly who they are going to kill before they detonate themselves. If they didn't want to kill children, they could walk out of their chosen restaurants, buses and teen discos, and choose a different target when they saw that many children were present.

* June 1, 2001, a Palestinian terrorist chose to detonate himself among a long line of teenagers , their youth clearly visible to him, at the Dolphinarium disco in Tel Aviv. 11 teenagers under the age of 18 were among the dead.

* Mar 2, 2002 - Outside of a Jerusalem synagogue, a terrorist detonated a bomb next to a group of mainly women standing outside with their young children, several in baby carriages . The victims: Shlomo Nehmad (40), his wife Gafnit (32), and their daughters Shiraz (7) and Liran (3); Avraham Eliahu Nehmad, (7), Shaul Nehmad (15); Lidor Ilan (12) and his sister Oriah (18 months); Tzofia Ya'arit Eliyahu (23) and her son Ya'akov Avraham (7 months); and Avi Hazan, (37). The Fatah Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade took responsibility for the attack.

* Aug 19, 2003 - Twenty-three people were killed, including 7 children when a Palestinian suicide bomber detonated himself on a No. 2 Egged bus in Jerusalem's Shmuel Hanavi neighborhood. The bus was filled with children. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack. The child victims: Shmuel Taubenfeld, 3 months, of New Square, New York; Shmuel Zargari, 11 months; Tehilla Nathanson, 3; Issachar Reinitz, 9; Avraham Bar-Or, 12; Binyamin Bergman, 15; Elisheva Meshulami, 16.

* November 20, 2000, terrorists attacked a bus carrying children from Kfar Darom to school in Gush Katif. 5 children were injured, many of whom had limbs blown off.

* On Mar 26, 2001, a Palestinian sniper took aim at 10 month old Shalhevet Pass, who was sitting in her stroller. She was fatally shot in the head. This was hardly an “accident.” She was the target, even though her father was standing right beside her.

* Nov. 10, 2002, Revital Ohayon, 34, and her two sons, Matan, 5, and Noam, 4, were shot to death by an Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade terrorist who broke into their home at Kibbutz Metzer.

* May 9, 2001 — Yossi Ish-Ran, 14, and Kobi Mandell, 14 , both of Tekoa, were savagely beaten to death with stones in a cave about 200 meters from the small community south of Jerusalem where they lived.

The attacks mentioned above are just a few of the many many recent Palestinian terrorist attacks that took place even though the presence of children was clearly known to the terrorists.

In years past, children were also targeted. For example:

* May 22, 1970 - Avivim, Israel
Palestinian terrorists attack schoolbus , killing 12 (9 of whom were children), and wounding 24.

May 15, 1974 - Maalot, Israel
PFLP terrorists held children hostage in a Ma'alot school . Of the 27 Israelis murdered, 21 were children. 78 were wounded .

[The Russian]

Oh and from the same article, I forgot to add who exactly is targetting women:

Quote: Taking into account terror attacks by Hamas and other terror organizations from Sept 27, 2000 until May 1, 2004, the International Policy Institute for Counter Terrorism (ICT) has found that Palestinians have killed 921 Israelis, 715 (78%) of whom were noncombatants. 280 of the noncombatants killed were women. This means that 30% of the Israelis killed by Palestinians were noncombatant women. In contrast, Israel has killed 91 (3%) noncombatant Palestinian women during military strikes or security actions.

30% vs 3%. It appears that if one makes an effort, as Israel does, to target combatants, noncombatant women will only be a tiny percentage of those hurt. Hamas and the other terror organizations have obviously made few such efforts to shield noncombatant women from harm.

[bunny]

The Russian wrote: At your request, heres the story about how Hamas justifies the targeted killing of hundreds of children at once: http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=2&x_article=756

The 5 paragraphs from Hamas are then followed by the show of hipocricy. Heres the quote. And this article is old, not updated since 2004.


Link to Homes demolished by Israel


Link to Minors in IDF custody


Link to other gruesome acts in which Israel, via the IDF, has targeted & punished civilians, over the years



Ahh, nothing like an occupation to keep things in prespective, right?



Btw, why were groups like Hamas & Hezbollah created anyways... I forget.

[Enlightened Despot]

The Russian wrote: Oh and from the same article, I forgot to add who exactly is targetting women:

Quote: Taking into account terror attacks by Hamas and other terror organizations from Sept 27, 2000 until May 1, 2004, the International Policy Institute for Counter Terrorism (ICT) has found that Palestinians have killed 921 Israelis, 715 (78%) of whom were noncombatants. 280 of the noncombatants killed were women. This means that 30% of the Israelis killed by Palestinians were noncombatant women. In contrast, Israel has killed 91 (3%) noncombatant Palestinian women during military strikes or security actions.

30% vs 3%. It appears that if one makes an effort, as Israel does, to target combatants, noncombatant women will only be a tiny percentage of those hurt. Hamas and the other terror organizations have obviously made few such efforts to shield noncombatant women from harm.

I am seriously wondering about this sources because I think it was accprding almost a third of all ther 4000+ people who have died in the Intifada about 1500 were no older 15. I'll see If I can find the article as well

Thank you posting a source and keeping the debate civil.

[superskippy]

Quote: An Occupying Force has rules it need to follow, that Israel is breaking, on a daily basis, in violation of the geneva conventions. The fact that Palestine is not an official country, is also a moot point.

We fight how we need to fight, technically we cant assasinate some of the terrorist leaders that we have. But does that mean we arent going to? Of course not. We are going to do what we can to protect our country, if we violate a clause of a treaty to achieve that end then so be it. We would hardly be the first or the most extreme to do so.

Quote: The majority of those Israelis killed by palestianians are soldiers believe it or not.

Utter and complete crap if you'll excuse my language. After more than 5 years of this we have lost 225 soldiers in combat and accidents. More than 1,050 civilians have been killed in terrorist attacks since their "intifadah" began.

[Enlightened Despot]

superskippy wrote:
We fight how we need to fight, technically we cant assasinate some of the terrorist leaders that we have. But does that mean we arent going to? Of course not. We are going to do what we can to protect our country, if we violate a clause of a treaty to achieve that end then so be it. We would hardly be the first or the most extreme to do so.


How much are you willing to lose. The very heart and sole of Israel. Are you willing to sacrifice all that is good (in you and you people and the country just to destroy an enemy ? Sure you act like Hamas, but how are you then better than them ?

Sure, I understand you will do whatever you think is needed for survival. However at some point you turn into your very own worst nemesis. It's like the war on terror. They say they want tp protect and preserve freedom. What do they do. They restrict and try abolish it. Becoming a facist state in all but name.

Technically you cant assasinate anybody but you still do (Sheik Yassin). How does the destroying Gaza aid you in finding poor Gilat (assuming he is still alive) ? This is the kind of stuff that gets Israel into problems. She's a little to arrogant (although I understand that). My solution is easy if Israel could improve the lives of Palestinians better than say Hamas or Fatah could they would gain the favor of the people...and at the same time lessen the hatred (which frankly put is somewhat understandable from a Palestinian point of view) that some Palestinians have of Israel...

Quote: Utter and complete crap if you'll excuse my language. After more than 5 years of this we have lost 225 soldiers in combat and accidents. More than 1,050 civilians have been killed in terrorist attacks since their "intifadah" began.

It's allright, I'll check out my sources again, aight ?