Political Crossfire Forums

Fido · Joined: 16 Mar 2006 Posts: 3936

Free Thinkr wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: The more things change the more they stay the same. People have always discussed this subject, and apparently their points have never changed. Non-believers still say the same things they have always said about God.
Of course. It's nice that the believers of several thousand years ago made canned arguments that believers of today can repeat!

They may have canned them, but only because they believed them, and in canning. They must have been canny to know we would need them when our facts ran out. Hurrah for them.

Free Thinkr · Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 5:14 pm Post subject:

cap'n queasy wrote: Free Thinkr wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: The more things change the more they stay the same. People have always discussed this subject, and apparently their points have never changed. Non-believers still say the same things they have always said about God.
Of course. It's nice that the believers of several thousand years ago made canned arguments that believers of today can repeat!

It's only in response to the canned arguments non-believers make. :lol:
Sure; it's just too bad that non-believers didn't write the arguments down 2,000 years ago to lend a false air of legitimacy to them. That was a clever move by the believers, but then, the burden of proof was on them, not the non-believers; just as it is today (canned 2,000 year old arguments notwithstanding).

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

They preserved them because they knew there would come a day when they were needed.

And that day is here. :lol:

Fido · Joined: 16 Mar 2006 Posts: 3936

Free Thinkr wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Free Thinkr wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: The more things change the more they stay the same. People have always discussed this subject, and apparently their points have never changed. Non-believers still say the same things they have always said about God.
Of course. It's nice that the believers of several thousand years ago made canned arguments that believers of today can repeat!

It's only in response to the canned arguments non-believers make. :lol:
Sure; it's just too bad that non-believers didn't write the arguments down 2,000 years ago to lend a false air of legitimacy to them. That was a clever move by the believers, but then, the burden of proof was on them, not the non-believers; just as it is today (canned 2,000 year old arguments notwithstanding).

A lot of different beliefs were written down and burned by the orthodox. The funny thing is that all people were like children, or by way of explanation, all children are like people of ancient times who accepted magic and religion because they were way short of rational explanations for all they witnessed.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Fido wrote: Free Thinkr wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Free Thinkr wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: The more things change the more they stay the same. People have always discussed this subject, and apparently their points have never changed. Non-believers still say the same things they have always said about God.
Of course. It's nice that the believers of several thousand years ago made canned arguments that believers of today can repeat!

It's only in response to the canned arguments non-believers make. :lol:
Sure; it's just too bad that non-believers didn't write the arguments down 2,000 years ago to lend a false air of legitimacy to them. That was a clever move by the believers, but then, the burden of proof was on them, not the non-believers; just as it is today (canned 2,000 year old arguments notwithstanding).

A lot of different beliefs were written down and burned by the orthodox. The funny thing is that all people were like children, or by way of explanation, all children are like people of ancient times who accepted magic and religion because they were way short of rational explanations for all they witnessed.

If you think the majority of people in ancient times were religous you don't have a good understanding of history.

People thought the same way now as they did then. Most people only believe in taking what they can get, anyway they can get it. Some of them use "religion" to do this. I would venture to guess 99% of people who have worked to lead a religious establishment didn't look at it as anything more than exactly what you guys think a religion is. A handy tool to control society. Religions are man made, they have nothing to do with God. They are for leading people.

God on the other hand, sent His Son to tell us a new way. That we could have a personal relationship with Him. That He loves us and that He has a plan for us. This has nothing to do with "religion" in the slightest.

Open you heart to God so that your eyes may be opened to the truth. All you have to do is earnestly seek God and you will find Him. He will lead you the right way.

Fido · Joined: 16 Mar 2006 Posts: 3936

cap'n queasy wrote: Fido wrote: Free Thinkr wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Free Thinkr wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: The more things change the more they stay the same. People have always discussed this subject, and apparently their points have never changed. Non-believers still say the same things they have always said about God.
Of course. It's nice that the believers of several thousand years ago made canned arguments that believers of today can repeat!

It's only in response to the canned arguments non-believers make. :lol:
Sure; it's just too bad that non-believers didn't write the arguments down 2,000 years ago to lend a false air of legitimacy to them. That was a clever move by the believers, but then, the burden of proof was on them, not the non-believers; just as it is today (canned 2,000 year old arguments notwithstanding).

A lot of different beliefs were written down and burned by the orthodox. The funny thing is that all people were like children, or by way of explanation, all children are like people of ancient times who accepted magic and religion because they were way short of rational explanations for all they witnessed.

If you think the majority of people in ancient times were religous you don't have a good understanding of history.

People thought the same way now as they did then. Most people only believe in taking what they can get, anyway they can get it. Some of them use "religion" to do this. I would venture to guess 99% of people who have worked to lead a religious establishment didn't look at it as anything more than exactly what you guys think a religion is. A handy tool to control society. Religions are man made, they have nothing to do with God. They are for leading people.

God on the other hand, sent His Son to tell us a new way. That we could have a personal relationship with Him. That He loves us and that He has a plan for us. This has nothing to do with "religion" in the slightest.

Open you heart to God so that your eyes may be opened to the truth. All you have to do is earnestly seek God and you will find Him. He will lead you the right way.

Capn, you insult me to the core of my existence when you say to me that what I think I know best I know not well enough.

In fact there have been books on this subject, and it should be no surprise that even in our near history there was deaths, tortures and immolations over the issue of God. In times previous, people let themselves be cast to the beasts in defiance of paganism. And previous to that Abraham sacrificed his own dear son to the God who spoke to him. I am an earthling man and I have received a wound in the house of my friends so you cannot tell me that people did not quite commonly hear the word of God directly if it was not found necessary to punish the fact. Primitive peoples had no explanations for madness, and possession by demons was as plausible as Ecstasy by God.

Now, I agree that people have always been people. I have no notion of the noble savage. I do not steal from any one their lives. From all I can tell they were exactly like us in most respects. Yet, without evidence against a spiritual world, that is the one most likely to be accepted. If the natives believed that deer could talk to other deer, then to hunt deer is to understand how they might have thought that. Why not? They are wary and keen enough to be intelligent. Who would not think so without proof against.

All primitives live in a spiritual world. Unfortunately, it is religious people who were accepted because they lived in a spiritual world as well who usually have opened up primitive societies to exploitation by crass materialists having no use whatever for religion.

Thanks for the sermon, bye the way. Your prayers are not wasted on me.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 22517 Location: Houston

Quote: There's really no reason to debate god because the answer is clear: the agnostics are the only sensible people in the room.

Just because we don't know everything, doesn't mean you can't make a decision based upon what we DO know.

Did you know that ignoramus (Latin) and agnostic (Greek) are the same word in two different languages?

Are the ignoramuses the only sensible people in the room? :lol:

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

They both mean "without knowing". :lol:

I know that it isn't how the word agnostic is used nowadays.

But that is the definition.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Quote: From all I can tell they were exactly like us in most respects.

That was my entire point Fido.
You have a habit enclosing the exact point you are arguing against within your own argument. You have done that twice in debates we were having.

Allow me to elaborate, I see what you are saying, but I'm not sure if you got my point.

Most people throughout human history have thought the idea that there is a God is ridiculous. This is nothing new, it has always been that way. Of course, saying the idea of an infallible Pope is ridiculous, or that Nero wasn't really a god, or that Ba'al wasn't real so I don't want to throw my baby in the fire wasn't something a lot of people did. It would cost you your life in those times.

But the thing is these cultures followed idols, not God. The number of people who actually know and believe in the true Living God is a very small percentage, as all the killing in the name of God clearly shows. It is a sad fact but the entire point of deceptive religions is to make the majority of people think this way.

I didn't mean to insult you, so I apologize for that. You are an intelligent person. I didn't want to imply otherwise, so I'm sorry.

thefranzkafkafront · Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 11:57 am Post subject:

Relgion is belief in the unknown, while thats fine its not something i suscribe to. Nor is it something that can really be debated as its fundamentals lies in the alogical.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 22517 Location: Houston

thefranzkafkafront wrote: Relgion is belief in the unknown, while thats fine its not something i suscribe to. Nor is it something that can really be debated as its fundamentals lies in the alogical.

That's not true. You can't believe in something "unknown" (try it...it's impossible). What you call "unknown" is just unknown to you.

Although you really missed what religion is. Religion is the attempt to gain favor with the source of everything (AKA God).

thefranzkafkafront · Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 1:00 pm Post subject:

John wrote: thefranzkafkafront wrote: Relgion is belief in the unknown, while thats fine its not something i suscribe to. Nor is it something that can really be debated as its fundamentals lies in the alogical.

That's not true. You can't believe in something "unknown" (try it...it's impossible). What you call "unknown" is just unknown to you.

Well prehaps, but the entire point of belief is that its a kierkergardian leap of faith.

Faith is by its very nature infallible and alogical. Neither your nor I can prove emperically or rationaly any sort of theological priciple anymore than we can experience dimensions above 3d. It very well might exist, but it has just the same probility that it dose not.

Thats the fudamental point of belief.

Quote:
Although you really missed what religion is. Religion is the attempt to gain favor with the source of everything (AKA God).
Not really, not all relgions are theistic, Buddism or Confucianism for example.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 22517 Location: Houston

Quote: Not really, not all relgions are theistic, Buddism or Confucianism for example.

They are still systems of earning favor from the source of all things (Shang-ti/Confucianism). Think about it. You follow certain rules and you're rewarded when you die. Hoping that your scale is tipped in agreement with this "source" that decides.

Christianity is the ONLY faith that states the oposite. Grace.

Fido · Joined: 16 Mar 2006 Posts: 3936

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: From all I can tell they were exactly like us in most respects.

That was my entire point Fido.
You have a habit enclosing the exact point you are arguing against within your own argument. You have done that twice in debates we were having.

Allow me to elaborate, I see what you are saying, but I'm not sure if you got my point.

Most people throughout human history have thought the idea that there is a God is ridiculous. This is nothing new, it has always been that way. Of course, saying the idea of an infallible Pope is ridiculous, or that Nero wasn't really a god, or that Ba'al wasn't real so I don't want to throw my baby in the fire wasn't something a lot of people did. It would cost you your life in those times.

But the thing is these cultures followed idols, not God. The number of people who actually know and believe in the true Living God is a very small percentage, as all the killing in the name of God clearly shows. It is a sad fact but the entire point of deceptive religions is to make the majority of people think this way.

I didn't mean to insult you, so I apologize for that. You are an intelligent person. I didn't want to imply otherwise, so I'm sorry.

Not true. Primitive peoples are dead serious about religion. All the primitive peoples we know of lived in extremely spiritual worlds. Only with the advent of reason and science has the involvement of God in our lives at a personal level become passe. Cap'n. With all due respect. Think again.

thefranzkafkafront · Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 7:34 am Post subject:

John wrote: Quote: Not really, not all relgions are theistic, Buddism or Confucianism for example.

They are still systems of earning favor from the source of all things (Shang-ti/Confucianism). Think about it. You follow certain rules and you're rewarded when you die. Hoping that your scale is tipped in agreement with this "source" that decides.

Ok cool lovely theres still a bit diffrence between theism, atheism and polytheism all of which can be relgions, this however has little to do with my orignal point about belief being by nature a kierergardian leap of faith.

Quote:
Christianity is the ONLY faith that states the oposite. Grace.
Uhuh, lets not open that can of worms. Christian theology has its own section.

Lord Hargreaves · Joined: 05 Oct 2004 Posts: 6974 Location: Herefordshire

As to the original question, it is necessary to debate God if only because of the impact on human events that those who believe in Her have, i.e., it can be seen as a practical matter of public policy.

On the actual meaning of debating God, it is correct to say it technically has none because, as Franz says, it is not alogical and infalliable by accident, that is what defines it. God, and religion, will only ever have proper meaning as to one's own conscience, and will never mean exactly the same thing to any other person

Fido · Joined: 16 Mar 2006 Posts: 3936

Lord Hargreaves wrote: As to the original question, it is necessary to debate God if only because of the impact on human events that those who believe in Her have, i.e., it can be seen as a practical matter of public policy.

On the actual meaning of debating God, it is correct to say it technically has none because, as Franz says, it is not alogical and infalliable by accident, that is what defines it. God, and religion, will only ever have proper meaning as to one's own conscience, and will never mean exactly the same thing to any other person

Only to the extent that each person is set to believe by the complexity of our minds, and that this sense of the spiritual, in memory, in premonition, and in desire, and fear is approximately equal in humans -can it mean the same thing at all, and in no sense exactly.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Fido wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: From all I can tell they were exactly like us in most respects.

That was my entire point Fido.
You have a habit enclosing the exact point you are arguing against within your own argument. You have done that twice in debates we were having.

Allow me to elaborate, I see what you are saying, but I'm not sure if you got my point.

Most people throughout human history have thought the idea that there is a God is ridiculous. This is nothing new, it has always been that way. Of course, saying the idea of an infallible Pope is ridiculous, or that Nero wasn't really a god, or that Ba'al wasn't real so I don't want to throw my baby in the fire wasn't something a lot of people did. It would cost you your life in those times.

But the thing is these cultures followed idols, not God. The number of people who actually know and believe in the true Living God is a very small percentage, as all the killing in the name of God clearly shows. It is a sad fact but the entire point of deceptive religions is to make the majority of people think this way.

I didn't mean to insult you, so I apologize for that. You are an intelligent person. I didn't want to imply otherwise, so I'm sorry.

Not true. Primitive peoples are dead serious about religion. All the primitive peoples we know of lived in extremely spiritual worlds. Only with the advent of reason and science has the involvement of God in our lives at a personal level become passe. Cap'n. With all due respect. Think again.

You live in a figment of your own imagination.

Narvik · Joined: 13 Apr 2006 Posts: 607 Location: Orsa

cap'n queasy wrote: Fido wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: From all I can tell they were exactly like us in most respects.

That was my entire point Fido.
You have a habit enclosing the exact point you are arguing against within your own argument. You have done that twice in debates we were having.

Allow me to elaborate, I see what you are saying, but I'm not sure if you got my point.

Most people throughout human history have thought the idea that there is a God is ridiculous. This is nothing new, it has always been that way. Of course, saying the idea of an infallible Pope is ridiculous, or that Nero wasn't really a god, or that Ba'al wasn't real so I don't want to throw my baby in the fire wasn't something a lot of people did. It would cost you your life in those times.

But the thing is these cultures followed idols, not God. The number of people who actually know and believe in the true Living God is a very small percentage, as all the killing in the name of God clearly shows. It is a sad fact but the entire point of deceptive religions is to make the majority of people think this way.

I didn't mean to insult you, so I apologize for that. You are an intelligent person. I didn't want to imply otherwise, so I'm sorry.

Not true. Primitive peoples are dead serious about religion. All the primitive peoples we know of lived in extremely spiritual worlds. Only with the advent of reason and science has the involvement of God in our lives at a personal level become passe. Cap'n. With all due respect. Think again.

You live in a figment of your own imagination.
Do you mean that he's incorrect?
Name one primitive civilization that wasn't religious!

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 22517 Location: Houston

Quote: Name one primitive civilization that wasn't religious!

But just as today...many of the people in these civilizations didn't believe in the religions. Things haven't changed as much as you think they have.