Political Crossfire Forums

[infinity]

Does God exist....

'I can prove He doesn't!'
'I can prove He does!'

Simple answer: No you can't.

I know it's fun to debate and see other points and think about this;I do it to and probably will continue to do so as long as I'm able to question things.

But -
Why do people think they can actually prove this?

[wildchild]

everything is just our opinion ..
but it doesn't mean it's even close to the truth
illusions and ignoranse are our only advisors in 99.9% of all events
just like in my particular case...

[infinity]

I suppose it also does depend on your view of God.

If you think God is just the infinate ether that the universe is made of, all energy, all mass, all vibration....

Then I GUESS you could prove it's there, because it is...

But then again, some people don't see it like that.

[wildchild]

infinity wrote: I suppose it also does depend on your view of God.

If you think God is just the infinate ether that the universe is made of, all energy, all mass, all vibration....

Then I GUESS you could prove it's there, because it is...

But then again, some people don't see it like that.

I'm sorry I;m not smart enaught to understand how you can prove that "it's" because "it's"...
It's the God ... because it's here and because it's God?!

[Jack]

I suppose it’s a lot like Superstring Theory: It’s just so big and out there that there really is no way to prove it one way or the other.

There is another way to look at it though. Religion, despite all the hypocrisy, remains a positive message at its core. Christianity espouses love and compassion. Perhaps one could take notice that these teachings came into being during a time of great cruelty. Human beings always act within accordance of their very nature and yet along comes a belief that encourages people to do just the opposite.

Maybe humans could not have been compelled to act against their most savage indulgences unless there was divine will behind it. Maybe the mere existence of a benevolent set of teachings in spite of human nature is proof of God’s existence in and of itself. Either way it remains something positive to aspire to.

[Corona]

infinity wrote: I suppose it also does depend on your view of God.

If you think God is just the infinate ether that the universe is made of, all energy, all mass, all vibration....

Then I GUESS you could prove it's there, because it is...

But then again, some people don't see it like that.

God is the medium for life? That's weird, but it makes more sense than most other theories.

[The Russian]

Quote: Does God exist....

'I can prove He doesn't!'
'I can prove He does!'

Simple answer: No you can't.

I know it's fun to debate and see other points and think about this;I do it to and probably will continue to do so as long as I'm able to question things.

But -
Why do people think they can actually prove this?

The answer, atleast to this question... is simple... it is less about the answer than it is about the journey. It is through questioning this that you find yourself, not god or the non-existance there-of.

When people grow to the point of debating this ideology it is offten already at a point when neither side will ever budge, but is looking for prefects that might modify his position to make it stronger.

I, personaly, have reasoned any intelligible creator out of existance... my *problem* is that while I can prove there is no intelligible creator, it is hard to prove there was never a benevolent one who just created out of the sake of experimentation and left.... which is why, for the longest time, I was on the agnostic-atheist borderline... but all of this, is just *my* journey. And journeys are offten decided by how prepared you are, and knowledge is your hikers backpack... pack all the relevant information you can from the books you find.

PS: And just fyi, the position that you've defined yourself as through your post is called agnostic... it is not the lack of a position like theology would have you believe, but a position in itself.

[Fido]

The only reason to debate God is an excess of breath or keystrokes. It proves nothing, and is an exercise in futility. It shows a person's prejudices rapidily, and it demonstrates the limits of their reason. But it also flushes out the nutcases pretty well. If a person will kill for God it is because they do not need a better reason. If a person kills for their faith it is not a stain on God, but a remark upon the desparation people have to honor their cultures, their families, and their forebears who gave them their faith, and their lives. We have to face the fact that God as handed to us is little better than ourselves, capricious, dangerous, jeolous, and spiteful; and other than that, welcome on a foggy night.

[Fido]

Corona wrote: infinity wrote: I suppose it also does depend on your view of God.

If you think God is just the infinate ether that the universe is made of, all energy, all mass, all vibration....

Then I GUESS you could prove it's there, because it is...

But then again, some people don't see it like that.

God is the medium for life? That's weird, but it makes more sense than most other theories.

Not the medium; but the Maximum!

[ieatfood]

There's really no reason to debate god because the answer is clear: the agnostics are the only sensible people in the room.

Everyone else believes in god because that is what they have been taught since birth or becuase they have invested their lives and emotions into the issue and cannot part from it. They come up with shoddy logical reasoning and false connections to try and convince themselves that Jesus CHrist MUST be the savior or that ALLAH is the one true god. Of course, there is no real evidence for either, any more than there is evidence for any of the Hindu gods or gods from any other religion.

Agnostics are the only ones who are brave enough to admit the truth--anyone who thinks they know anything about god or the nature of god's existence, if there is any, is full of it.

[johnflesh]

infinity wrote: Does God exist....

'I can prove He doesn't!'
'I can prove He does!'

Simple answer: No you can't.

I know it's fun to debate and see other points and think about this;I do it to and probably will continue to do so as long as I'm able to question things.

But -
Why do people think they can actually prove this?

You can only prove God to yourself. No one can do it for you...

You are right, at this point and time there is no video or .jpg or story I can give you to prove anything about God. If I could, why should I? My point of view is 'do it yourself or you won't believe it at all.'

I see the debate as a good thing no matter how you feel or how you make other's feel, in the end.

Why do people do it? Simple. People debate this and that because it is unknown to almost everyone. Certainly anyone who'd ever debate the topic. Some debate because they are interested in the idea of God and search for it in and out of reality. Some debate because they have confirming damning evidence that proves God doesn't exist, (which consists of personal opinion and science measurement as arguement to supernatural forces and beings, such as God).

I can never debate the truth about God because it is to me what it is... and there is no one just like me out there, so there will be difference. I say go by experience rather than the debate. Be comfortable with what you know for sure aside from what you heard, learned, or were gullible enough to swallow. Perhaps if something you debate becomes experience, well that should be the only determining factor to alter what you know.

As to the question, "why do people think they can actually prove this?"

Because they are afraid that they really don't know and expect it to fall on the shoulders who know for sure based on experience. Those who ask this question as a realistic question have no idea what they are after and usually have little experience in anything, let alone God. For someone to miss the whole fact that proving a personal connection between you and higher power is all but impossible, and actually quite ridiculous to ask of someone aside from yourself, should be the tip off that the conversation will head rapidly downhill from that point on. I'd advise walking the other way as you'd have to go back to fundamentals with these people, teaching them comprehension, understanding, and all the things you should know that would never, ever make you ask someone to produce proof of God.

[johnflesh]

ieatfood wrote: There's really no reason to debate god because the answer is clear: the agnostics are the only sensible people in the room.

Everyone else believes in god because that is what they have been taught since birth or becuase they have invested their lives and emotions into the issue and cannot part from it. They come up with shoddy logical reasoning and false connections to try and convince themselves that Jesus CHrist MUST be the savior or that ALLAH is the one true god. Of course, there is no real evidence for either, any more than there is evidence for any of the Hindu gods or gods from any other religion.

Agnostics are the only ones who are brave enough to admit the truth--anyone who thinks they know anything about god or the nature of god's existence, if there is any, is full of it.

Some people believe in God based on experience with a higher power. They have seen God, felt God, etc.. (read above)

Higher power or electrical wires too close to the house, it is still an experience that can never be proven or disproven. Absolutly.

[British boy]

ieatfood wrote: There's really no reason to debate god because the answer is clear: the agnostics are the only sensible people in the room.

Everyone else believes in god because that is what they have been taught since birth or becuase they have invested their lives and emotions into the issue and cannot part from it. They come up with shoddy logical reasoning and false connections to try and convince themselves that Jesus CHrist MUST be the savior or that ALLAH is the one true god. Of course, there is no real evidence for either, any more than there is evidence for any of the Hindu gods or gods from any other religion.

Agnostics are the only ones who are brave enough to admit the truth--anyone who thinks they know anything about god or the nature of god's existence, if there is any, is full of it.
I think that saying agnostics are the only sensible people in the room is stupid. Ignoring thats your opinion, why aren't the atheists the most sensible? Most tend to use the physical evidence around them to determine that God does not exist, surely thats more sensible then picking the middle road. The same arguement can also be made for theists. the question involves matters of faith; a belief in something with no evidence. saying one is more sensible then the other when it shares the same flaw of faith as the others is silly.

[Narvik]

British boy wrote: ieatfood wrote: There's really no reason to debate god because the answer is clear: the agnostics are the only sensible people in the room.

Everyone else believes in god because that is what they have been taught since birth or becuase they have invested their lives and emotions into the issue and cannot part from it. They come up with shoddy logical reasoning and false connections to try and convince themselves that Jesus CHrist MUST be the savior or that ALLAH is the one true god. Of course, there is no real evidence for either, any more than there is evidence for any of the Hindu gods or gods from any other religion.

Agnostics are the only ones who are brave enough to admit the truth--anyone who thinks they know anything about god or the nature of god's existence, if there is any, is full of it.
I think that saying agnostics are the only sensible people in the room is stupid. Ignoring thats your opinion, why aren't the atheists the most sensible? Most tend to use the physical evidence around them to determine that God does not exist, surely thats more sensible then picking the middle road. The same arguement can also be made for theists. the question involves matters of faith; a belief in something with no evidence. saying one is more sensible then the other when it shares the same flaw of faith as the others is silly.
Different dictionaries have differend definitions of atheism and agnosticism.

I'm quite sure that ieatfood is an weak atheist (the wikipedia definition.. Restatement of the concept: Where theists believe that one or more deities exist and strong atheists believe that no gods exist, weak atheists hold neither belief.).

Weak atheists believe nothing at all.

Since there's no evidence for a god there's no reason to believe in one. It would of course be illogical to reject something because of the lack of evidence, therefore the lack of belief in either way.

[7]

infinity wrote: Does God exist....

'I can prove He doesn't!'
'I can prove He does!'

Simple answer: No you can't.

I know it's fun to debate and see other points and think about this;I do it to and probably will continue to do so as long as I'm able to question things.

But -
Why do people think they can actually prove this? I disagree, to the faithful like myself it would seem that there is no way God doesn't exist so really unless I was an atheist, I wouldn't agree with you.

[Free Thinkr]

ieatfood wrote: There's really no reason to debate god because the answer is clear: the agnostics are the only sensible people in the room.

Everyone else believes in god because that is what they have been taught since birth or becuase they have invested their lives and emotions into the issue and cannot part from it. They come up with shoddy logical reasoning and false connections to try and convince themselves that Jesus CHrist MUST be the savior or that ALLAH is the one true god. Of course, there is no real evidence for either, any more than there is evidence for any of the Hindu gods or gods from any other religion.

Agnostics are the only ones who are brave enough to admit the truth--anyone who thinks they know anything about god or the nature of god's existence, if there is any, is full of it.
Agnosticism is silly, as exposed when any other mythical creature is substituted for gods. Are you agnostic about the existence of talking terds?

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: Psalm 10:1-18 - A Prayer for the Overthrow of the Wicked.

1 Why do You stand afar off, O LORD?

Why do You hide Yourself in times of trouble?

2 In pride the wicked hotly pursue the afflicted;

Let them be caught in the plots which they have devised.


3 For the wicked boasts of his heart's desire,

And the greedy man curses and spurns the LORD.

4 The wicked, in the haughtiness of his countenance, does not seek Him.

All his thoughts are, "There is no God."


5 His ways prosper at all times;

Your judgments are on high, out of his sight;

As for all his adversaries, he snorts at them.

6 He says to himself, "I will not be moved;

Throughout all generations I will not be in adversity."

7 His mouth is full of curses and deceit and oppression;

Under his tongue is mischief and wickedness.

8 He sits in the lurking places of the villages;

In the hiding places he kills the innocent;

His eyes stealthily watch for the unfortunate.

9 He lurks in a hiding place as a lion in his lair;

He lurks to catch the afflicted;

He catches the afflicted when he draws him into his net.

10 He crouches, he bows down,

And the unfortunate fall by his mighty ones.

11 He says to himself, "God has forgotten;

He has hidden His face; He will never see it."


12 Arise, O LORD; O God, lift up Your hand.

Do not forget the afflicted.

13 Why has the wicked spurned God?

He has said to himself, "You will not require it."

14 You have seen it, for You have beheld mischief and vexation to take it into Your hand.

The unfortunate commits himself to You;

You have been the helper of the orphan.

15 Break the arm of the wicked and the evildoer,

Seek out his wickedness until You find none.


16 The LORD is King forever and ever;

Nations have perished from His land.

17 O LORD, You have heard the desire of the humble;

You will strengthen their heart, You will incline Your ear

18 To vindicate the orphan and the oppressed,

So that man who is of the earth will no longer cause terror.



The more things change the more they stay the same. People have always discussed this subject, and apparently their points have never changed. Non-believers still say the same things they have always said about God.

[Free Thinkr]

cap'n queasy wrote: The more things change the more they stay the same. People have always discussed this subject, and apparently their points have never changed. Non-believers still say the same things they have always said about God.
Of course. It's nice that the believers of several thousand years ago made canned arguments that believers of today can repeat!

[cap'n queasy]

Free Thinkr wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: The more things change the more they stay the same. People have always discussed this subject, and apparently their points have never changed. Non-believers still say the same things they have always said about God.
Of course. It's nice that the believers of several thousand years ago made canned arguments that believers of today can repeat!

It's only in response to the canned arguments non-believers make. :lol:

[Paladin]

ieatfood wrote: There's really no reason to debate god because the answer is clear: the agnostics are the only sensible people in the room.

Everyone else believes in god because that is what they have been taught since birth or because they have invested their lives and emotions into the issue and cannot part from it. They come up with shoddy logical reasoning and false connections to try and convince themselves that Jesus Christ MUST be the savior or that ALLAH is the one true god. Of course, there is no real evidence for either, any more than there is evidence for any of the Hindu gods or gods from any other religion.

Agnostics are the only ones who are brave enough to admit the truth--anyone who thinks they know anything about god or the nature of god's existence, if there is any, is full of it.

Prideful, indeed! :lol:
All agnostics must have vastly superior emotional and intellectual discipline to the rest of the world! You are the only ones who can discern the truth of existence after all. Is there an Emotional Discipline Quotient to figure out who has these rare qualities that set them apart from everyone else and gives them the better position in reasoning?

Being agnostic allows a person to be completely free from any sort of moral responsibility. It is religious anarchy. 'We are built with only what we can study and find in ourselves. There is nothing more.' If it doesn't fit their perception of reality it's not real.

:(
Agnostics always have pride when they want to argue their position to theists. When they are arguing their side they assume all religions and people who follow them are foolish. Because they say so. I don't understand!!

One is an agnostic.
One argues that A, being agnostic is the only truly reasonable religion.
because 1. knowing the existence of God is impossible
therefore a. the vast amount of religious people in the world are foolish and attached to their religions with unreasonable emotionally based reasons.
Facet of A, an agnostic cannot argue this unless an agnostic believes
1. that they are superior emotionally and/or intellectually to the many religious people

!Reason is truth and is a cold, dark place and rules only those who live platonically. Agnostics are they and theists are those who have emotion and therefore are subject to compromising of reason to appease they're emotional deposit in their faith.
- Theists live by reason, too. But they seek confirmation of some truths that cannot be studied out because those have inner effects. Effects such as a living with honor, love, chastity, chivalry, respect, and reverence. They seek for answers to questions such as, "Where did I (my soul) come from? Why am I existing? What will happen when I die?" They find in their religion answers to these and other questions. They find comfort as well as enrichment in their lives.