Political Crossfire Forums

[MJB]

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: Your twisting things reflects your lack of understanding of the temple.

Nope, sorry, it is you and Mormon doctrine who are twisting things around because it follows the exact type of religious impulse that led the Pharisees astray. Works driven legalism disguised with false piety was their downfall. They were always obedient to their religious tenets and did plenty of charity just as LDS does, yet somehow they had missed the mark by a considerable margin, just as LDS does. They both had cleaned the outside of the cup, but inside it was still corruption.

This was what had defiled the Temple. If you knew Christ in any small measure you would realize this and would not continue to argue the point or defend your organizations attempt to create corrupted facsimiles of the only real Temple, the one in Jerusalem. If you truly knew anything about the system of temple worship in Israel you would understand that what you attempt to label as Mormon "temples" would have been called synagogues in Israel. There could be only one Temple, which existed on a specific spot for a specific reason and couldn't be duplicated, and it is destroyed.

God never gave Joseph Smith or his successors authority to go around constructing dozens of "temples" to replace the one destroyed in Jerusalem.

You have, as usual, been unable to square your brand of theology to what the scriptures say, so have, again, descended into your typical anti-Mormon spiel, but do try to stay on topic, for once (though I know what a struggle that is for you).

Now - the subject was faith and works - remember?

Since you couldn't answer to the scriptures which were posted, you brought up temples, among other things, in order to side step them by crying hypocrite. So - answer to what I said regarding Biblical temple worship. Dismissing it with your nonsensical Pharisee accusation was only another side step.

Temple worship was instituted by God, and engaged in by the people of God, during both Old and New Testament periods, including Jesus, himself, and his apostles after him. What do you think the focus of temple worship ever was, from the very beginning, if not Christ? Or do you deny that Christ was the focus at all?

[Angelicus]

MJB wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: It keeps our focus squarely on Christ as we, in faith and humility, submit ourselves in obedience to him.


You are saying to obey Christ, but then asking folks to disobey Him by exalting their own works over the work of Christ. You believe in the power of your work, not in Christ. Obviously, this is not what Y'shua taught.

Quote: John 6:28 Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?" 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

People asked Y'shua "how do we do the work of God, and Y'shua's answer was simple and direct. Believe in who He sent.

The work of God is to believe, nothing else. When you really believe in Christ, instead of a pseudo-Christian interpretation of doctrine you will understand this.


Quote: Is it not clear enough?

But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
No, not the way you present it. That says doers of the word, not doers of work. The Word, who is Christ, tells us that the work of God is to believe in Him, who God sent. John 6:28-29.

Hearing the truth about the work Christ did on our behalf, disbelieving it and substituting your own work for that of Y'shua HaMashiach is self-delusion, I'm sorry to inform you. .

This is completely false. Nothing I have said or quoted remotely suggests that man is to exalt his works above Christ, which is absurdly impossible from the get go!

To the contrary.

Ignore the scriptures if you please, but if we truly believe in Jesus Christ, and accept him, we believe in his teachings, and accept them. We do as he taught, we are obedient to him, we keep his commandments, and we follow him, or strive so to do. This is not exalting ourselves, or our works, above him. It is submitting ourselves to him in humility, as our Savior.

For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

So - I'm sorry to inform you, but you have it entirely backwards, and it is self-delusion to think that doing as the Lord has commanded us, is substituting our works for his.

"We keep his commandments"

I wasnt going too get into this thread too much, because the faith vs works arguement is as old as dirt. It's an arguement that has been around since the time of the apostles, and it will probably be with us unresolved untill the Lord himself settles it.

But when I see someone say "we keep the commandments" I have to ask, the question if they really do.

And since they can keep Gods commandments, what do they need Christ for?

Seems to me his death and resurrection would be kind of pointless and needless if we were capable of keeping everyone of Gods commandments ourselves.

[MJB]

Angelicus wrote: "We keep his commandments"

I wasnt going too get into this thread too much, because the faith vs works arguement is as old as dirt. It's an arguement that has been around since the time of the apostles, and it will probably be with us unresolved untill the Lord himself settles it.

But when I see someone say "we keep the commandments" I have to ask, the question if they really do.

And since they can keep Gods commandments, what do they need Christ for?

Seems to me his death and resurrection would be kind of pointless and needless if we were capable of keeping everyone of Gods commandments ourselves.

First of all - as I said in my first post in this thread:

MJB wrote: The gospel of Jesus Christ is a gospel of faith and works. Not faith v. works.

When one has faith in Christ, he endeavors to follow him, obey his teachings, and keep his commandments. When one stumbles, he repents, forsakes his sins, straightens his course, and begins anew. Such is the way of life for those who truly believe. If we say we have faith, but do not do as Jesus taught, we are void of the faith we profess.

Passive belief is not faith, and does not bring men to Christ. We come to Christ when we believe in him, have faith in his power to save, and act on that faith be being obedient to him.

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him" (Hebrews 5:9)

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him" (1 John 1:4)

If Christ is the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him, then what does this say of the notion that obedience is not necessary?

If to know Christ, one must keep the commandments, or be a liar, then what does this say of the notion that because of what Christ has done, keeping the commandments is not necessary?

What's more - the scriptures say that God gives the Holy Ghost to those who obey him. Does it not, then, follow, that in order to have the Spirit with us, we must obey God?

And, again, as Jesus said:

John 14: 15
15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 15: 10
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.

Is there any question here, at all, that we are being told to keep the commandments?

Of course we're imperfect beings, and, therefore, naturally, we will not likely manage to keep every commandment all of the time, and even more likely, we probably won't manage to keep most of them perfectly any of the time. Does this, then, void the requirement? Of course not. It is our willingness to obey our Savior, and our willingness to make an honest effort to do as he has commanded, that is required of us.

Christ atoned for our sins, died for us, and rose from the grave to bring about the resurrection, in order to save us from sin and death. He did this, to do for us, what we are not able to do for ourselves. But our inability to be perfect at keeping the commandments, does not remove our responsibility to keep them. After all - we are not saved by any ability on our part to be perfect at keeping commandments, but keeping the commandments is being obedient to Christ as our Savior, which is required of us. We are not saved by our works either, but works are still necessary because, "...faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."

And again, as James said - "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." This is significant because a physical body, without a spirit, is just a dead shell, incapable of anything. It is the union of the spirit and body that makes one a living, breathing, soul. The spirit and body together are required, to be whole and alive.

[Angelicus]

Thats a nice sidestepping of my point, and since it wasn't addressed I'll make it again. The Bible defines sin as the breaking of Gods commandments.

Hence if we say we can of ourselves keep Gods commandments, we are in effect saying we have no sin.

Further when it comes too the issue of wether it is works, or faith that gains us access to Gods grace and mercy the Bible is clear it is faith that saves, and works that follow as the result of that faith.

"When Jesus saw their FAITH he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee. "[/color]

Notice it wasn't works that moved Christ it was FAITH.

"And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace. "

Notice he didn't say her works had saved her, but her FAITH.

Acts 26:18 "To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. But that was not why I commented in the first place."

Christ clearly says there, that it was faith in him that sanctified us before God.

Not works.

Furthermore Paul says flat out that it is faith that saves us, not works.
"Romans 3:28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."

Of course though, one must have eyes to see, and ears to hear what the Word of the Lord says to know this.

This theology that is out there today, that we can of our own free will keep Gods commandments is a lie straight from satan himself.

God in his word makes it clear as glass that besides Yeshua/Christ no man, no woman, and no child, is capable of keeping Gods commandments on their own, infact the Bible even goes so far as to say that any man who boasts that they can is a liar.

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: What do you think the focus of temple worship ever was, from the very beginning, if not Christ? Or do you deny that Christ was the focus at all?

The Temple worshipers in Israel were not worshiping Christ, MJB, they did not have a Christ centered worship at all. They rejected the Christ when He rode into Jerusalem on a donkey, MJB. They were worshiping their works, and when Christ got in the way they figured out a way to get Him removed.

And that is the exact thing Mormon theology seeks to do.

Except instead of totally denying Christ, they pull out a concept that is the opposite of what Christ taught and assign it the label of Christ. And they reassign different means to the same words used by Christ's followers so they assign a false meaning to the concepts those words represent. That is what John called an antichrist doctrine. Paul called this type of doctrine a "doctrine of demons".

Satan appears to have a learning curve. His methods are getting pretty subtle.

[MJB]

Angelicus wrote: [color=blue]Thats a nice sidestepping of my point, and since it wasn't addressed I'll make it again. The Bible defines sin as the breaking of Gods commandments.

Hence if we say we can of ourselves keep Gods commandments, we are in effect saying we have no sin.

Uh... Excuse me... I side stepped nothing.

Now - are you of the mindset that man cannot choose to obey God of his own free will?

[MJB]

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: What do you think the focus of temple worship ever was, from the very beginning, if not Christ? Or do you deny that Christ was the focus at all?

The Temple worshipers in Israel were not worshiping Christ, MJB, they did not have a Christ centered worship at all. They rejected the Christ when He rode into Jerusalem on a donkey, MJB. They were worshiping their works, and when Christ got in the way they figured out a way to get Him removed.

And that is the exact thing Mormon theology seeks to do.

Except instead of totally denying Christ, they pull out a concept that is the opposite of what Christ taught and assign it the label of Christ. And they reassign different means to the same words used by Christ's followers so they assign a false meaning to the concepts those words represent. That is what John called an antichrist doctrine. Paul called this type of doctrine a "doctrine of demons".

Satan appears to have a learning curve. His methods are getting pretty subtle.

The fact that there were Jews who did not recognize Jesus as the Christ, has absolutely nothing to do with my question.

And are you so incapable of objective thought that you can't engage in exchange without turning it into a Mormon thing?

[Angelicus]

MJB wrote: Angelicus wrote: Thats a nice sidestepping of my point, and since it wasn't addressed I'll make it again. The Bible defines sin as the breaking of Gods commandments.

Hence if we say we can of ourselves keep Gods commandments, we are in effect saying we have no sin.

Uh... Excuse me... I side stepped nothing.

Now - are you of the mindset that man cannot choose to obey God of his own free will?

No according to the apostle Paul, you can't of your own free will, of your own volition if you will choose too obey God.

Romans 8: 5-8

"For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."



2 Corinthians 5:17-21

"[color=blue]Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."


It's only when we have the faith, and have become that "new creature" that we can choose to obey God.

[cap'n queasy]

MJB wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: What do you think the focus of temple worship ever was, from the very beginning, if not Christ? Or do you deny that Christ was the focus at all?

The Temple worshipers in Israel were not worshiping Christ, MJB, they did not have a Christ centered worship at all. They rejected the Christ when He rode into Jerusalem on a donkey, MJB. They were worshiping their works, and when Christ got in the way they figured out a way to get Him removed.

And that is the exact thing Mormon theology seeks to do.

Except instead of totally denying Christ, they pull out a concept that is the opposite of what Christ taught and assign it the label of Christ. And they reassign different means to the same words used by Christ's followers so they assign a false meaning to the concepts those words represent. That is what John called an antichrist doctrine. Paul called this type of doctrine a "doctrine of demons".

Satan appears to have a learning curve. His methods are getting pretty subtle.

The fact that there were Jews who did not recognize Jesus as the Christ, has absolutely nothing to do with my question.

And are you so incapable of objective thought that you can't engage in exchange without turning it into a Mormon thing?

It is a Mormon thing. I don't say this to hurt your feelings but you are being deceived.

MJB the fact is the same Jews engaged in Temple worship were the people who did not recognize Y'shua for what He was. And the Mormons do the exact same thing. What Y'shua was is apparently not what they want so they have made up a completely different story and attributed it to Y'shua so they continue doing the same old thing people have always done.

They have even made up a alternative story of how it all happened in the New World to go along with it. Complete with fake artifacts, fake prophets, fake revelations, fake temples, and even a fake scripture.

Mormonism is a fraud. The sooner you get away from it the better off you will be. I know it will be hard for you to turn your back on your entire world, but you can do it.

I know you can. :wink:

Y'shua is calling you, bow your heart and receive.

[Angelicus]

cap'n queasy wrote: MJB wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: What do you think the focus of temple worship ever was, from the very beginning, if not Christ? Or do you deny that Christ was the focus at all?

The Temple worshipers in Israel were not worshiping Christ, MJB, they did not have a Christ centered worship at all. They rejected the Christ when He rode into Jerusalem on a donkey, MJB. They were worshiping their works, and when Christ got in the way they figured out a way to get Him removed.

And that is the exact thing Mormon theology seeks to do.

Except instead of totally denying Christ, they pull out a concept that is the opposite of what Christ taught and assign it the label of Christ. And they reassign different means to the same words used by Christ's followers so they assign a false meaning to the concepts those words represent. That is what John called an antichrist doctrine. Paul called this type of doctrine a "doctrine of demons".

Satan appears to have a learning curve. His methods are getting pretty subtle.

The fact that there were Jews who did not recognize Jesus as the Christ, has absolutely nothing to do with my question.

And are you so incapable of objective thought that you can't engage in exchange without turning it into a Mormon thing?

It is a Mormon thing. I don't say this to hurt your feelings but you are being deceived.

MJB the fact is the same Jews engaged in Temple worship were the people who did not recognize Y'shua for what He was. And the Mormons do the exact same thing. What Y'shua was is apparently not what they want so they have made up a completely different story and attributed it to Y'shua so they continue doing the same old thing people have always done.

They have even made up a alternative story of how it all happened in the New World to go along with it. Complete with fake artifacts, fake prophets, fake revelations, fake temples, and even a fake scripture.

Mormonism is a fraud. The sooner you get away from it the better off you will be. I know it will be hard for you to turn your back on your entire world, but you can do it.

I know you can. :wink:

Y'shua is calling you, bow your heart and receive.

You know maybe now would be as good a time as any to ask everyone what their "denomination" or "affiliation" or "sect" is. I had no idea I was conversing with a mormon, and to be honest capn, I dont know where you, doctrinally that is, come from either. And I think it might be nice and beneficial to know this about the folks we are talking too about these things.

So I'll go first.


Personally while I probably lean more towards being a baptist, I like to think that I'm more of an independant thinker.

By "independant thinker" I mean that I simply read the Bible, study it, try to make some sense of it, and apply it to my own life with alot of prayer and more than just a tiny bit of help from on high.
:lol:

I believe Christ or Y'shua is messiah, that he is divine diety, and that he died on the cross, and was raised up again on the third day for the sins of mankind. I beleive that it is only by his grace, and faith in him and only through him that I can be saved and approach the father, and enter into his kingdom.

Thats sort of basically my core belief.

[MJB]

Angelicus wrote: MJB wrote: Angelicus wrote: Thats a nice sidestepping of my point, and since it wasn't addressed I'll make it again. The Bible defines sin as the breaking of Gods commandments.

Hence if we say we can of ourselves keep Gods commandments, we are in effect saying we have no sin.

Uh... Excuse me... I side stepped nothing.

Now - are you of the mindset that man cannot choose to obey God of his own free will?

No according to the apostle Paul, you can't of your own free will, of your own volition if you will choose too obey God.

Romans 8: 5-8

"For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."



2 Corinthians 5:17-21

"[color=blue]Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."


It's only when we have the faith, and have become that "new creature" that we can choose to obey God.

Are you Calvinist?

[cap'n queasy]

Angelicus wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: MJB wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: What do you think the focus of temple worship ever was, from the very beginning, if not Christ? Or do you deny that Christ was the focus at all?

The Temple worshipers in Israel were not worshiping Christ, MJB, they did not have a Christ centered worship at all. They rejected the Christ when He rode into Jerusalem on a donkey, MJB. They were worshiping their works, and when Christ got in the way they figured out a way to get Him removed.

And that is the exact thing Mormon theology seeks to do.

Except instead of totally denying Christ, they pull out a concept that is the opposite of what Christ taught and assign it the label of Christ. And they reassign different means to the same words used by Christ's followers so they assign a false meaning to the concepts those words represent. That is what John called an antichrist doctrine. Paul called this type of doctrine a "doctrine of demons".

Satan appears to have a learning curve. His methods are getting pretty subtle.

The fact that there were Jews who did not recognize Jesus as the Christ, has absolutely nothing to do with my question.

And are you so incapable of objective thought that you can't engage in exchange without turning it into a Mormon thing?

It is a Mormon thing. I don't say this to hurt your feelings but you are being deceived.

MJB the fact is the same Jews engaged in Temple worship were the people who did not recognize Y'shua for what He was. And the Mormons do the exact same thing. What Y'shua was is apparently not what they want so they have made up a completely different story and attributed it to Y'shua so they continue doing the same old thing people have always done.

They have even made up a alternative story of how it all happened in the New World to go along with it. Complete with fake artifacts, fake prophets, fake revelations, fake temples, and even a fake scripture.

Mormonism is a fraud. The sooner you get away from it the better off you will be. I know it will be hard for you to turn your back on your entire world, but you can do it.

I know you can. :wink:

Y'shua is calling you, bow your heart and receive.

You know maybe now would be as good a time as any to ask everyone what their "denomination" or "affiliation" or "sect" is. I had no idea I was conversing with a mormon, and to be honest capn, I dont know where you, doctrinally that is, come from either. And I think it might be nice and beneficial to know this about the folks we are talking too about these things.

So I'll go first.


Personally while I probably lean more towards being a baptist, I like to think that I'm more of an independant thinker.

By "independant thinker" I mean that I simply read the Bible, study it, try to make some sense of it, and apply it to my own life with alot of prayer and more than just a tiny bit of help from on high.
:lol:

I believe Christ or Y'shua is messiah, that he is divine diety, and that he died on the cross, and was raised up again on the third day for the sins of mankind. I beleive that it is only by his grace, and faith in him and only through him that I can be saved and approach the father, and enter into his kingdom.

Thats sort of basically my core belief.

I call myself a scripture believer, but I guess you could call me a non-denominational Christian. I've never written a statement of belief before, but here it is.

I believe in one Creator God who rules the entire Creation, perfect in Grace, Love, and Justice, which we know from the attributes we call the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. I believe the Bible is an integrated message system from outside our domain written and given to us by God through the action of the Holy Spirit in the hearts of men to lead us through the narrow way, and so I believe in all of the words of the Prophets. I believe in the literal and real fulfillment of all of God's promises and covenants to Israel and through this He will reveal Himself to the entire world, as Israel is a light unto Nations. I believe in the Abrahamic covenant. I do not believe that God replaced Israel with Christianity but that what is concealed in the the Old Testament is revealed by the New Testament, by the action of the Holy Spirit indwelling in the heart of the believer. I believe Y'shua brought the New Covenant described in Jeremiah 31. To my thinking Y'shua was the continuation of a relationship with YHWH that began with Adam and Eve, who actually walked with God in the Garden, but who were deceived by the Serpent which brought our fall from grace.

I believe our salvation is through the grace (unmerited favor) of God alone and is caused by Y'shua's sacrifice as the paschal Lamb of God. His blood cleanses our sins. He was born of a virgin, lived a life without blemish, and died as a perfect sacrifice and was resurrected three days later in a perfected human body from which He will take the Davidic throne and rule the entire world during the Millennial Kingdom.

I believe sin is an fixed attribute of human existence and must be dealt with to come to the Father. When a person, either before or after Y'shua's lifetime on this earth as a man, accepts Y'shua, (which means Savior BTW) as Moshiach, they are baptized with fire and living water and are annointed by the Holy Spirit, the Ruach HaKodesh, which will then dwell in their heart. Earthly baptism is a representation of this to show the community the path one has chosen and does not remit sins in and of itself.

I do not believe that believers are bound by the Law, which God gave to Moses to bring awareness of sin, but freed by the New Covenant, not to abolish the law but to illuminate it's meaning and purpose, which is to have a loving personal relationship with God and our neighbors. I believe the believer has the perfected Law written in his heart. He or she knows when they are doing something wrong and takes measures to fix it.

I believe in the dispensational view of the scripture, a pre tribulation Rapture, the time of Jacob's trouble (tribulation), the final attack of the unbelieving world united against Israel at HarMegiddo, and the Second Coming that will end it, and I believe in a literal fulfillment of the Millennial Kingdom, the Day of Judgment, and the New Jerusalem.

If you have any more questions I will be more than happy to answer them. I also have a whole slew of speculation on other matters raised by studying the scripture and discussing it.

:-D God Bless!

[Angelicus]

Nope. Not really. I seriously don't hold any particular denominational affiliation.

In part because, well I don't see them in the scriptures. I see the church.

(emphasis on the period :lol: )

[cap'n queasy]

Angelicus wrote: Nope. Not really. I seriously don't hold any particular denominational affiliation.

In part because, well I don't see them in the scriptures. I see the church.

(emphasis on the period :lol: )

That is a great point. :-D

[MJB]

cap'n queasy wrote: MJB wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: What do you think the focus of temple worship ever was, from the very beginning, if not Christ? Or do you deny that Christ was the focus at all?

The Temple worshipers in Israel were not worshiping Christ, MJB, they did not have a Christ centered worship at all. They rejected the Christ when He rode into Jerusalem on a donkey, MJB. They were worshiping their works, and when Christ got in the way they figured out a way to get Him removed.

And that is the exact thing Mormon theology seeks to do.

Except instead of totally denying Christ, they pull out a concept that is the opposite of what Christ taught and assign it the label of Christ. And they reassign different means to the same words used by Christ's followers so they assign a false meaning to the concepts those words represent. That is what John called an antichrist doctrine. Paul called this type of doctrine a "doctrine of demons".

Satan appears to have a learning curve. His methods are getting pretty subtle.

The fact that there were Jews who did not recognize Jesus as the Christ, has absolutely nothing to do with my question.

And are you so incapable of objective thought that you can't engage in exchange without turning it into a Mormon thing?

It is a Mormon thing. I don't say this to hurt your feelings but you are being deceived.

MJB the fact is the same Jews engaged in Temple worship were the people who did not recognize Y'shua for what He was. And the Mormons do the exact same thing. What Y'shua was is apparently not what they want so they have made up a completely different story and attributed it to Y'shua so they continue doing the same old thing people have always done.

They have even made up a alternative story of how it all happened in the New World to go along with it. Complete with fake artifacts, fake prophets, fake revelations, fake temples, and even a fake scripture.

Mormonism is a fraud. The sooner you get away from it the better off you will be. I know it will be hard for you to turn your back on your entire world, but you can do it.

I know you can. :wink:

Y'shua is calling you, bow your heart and receive.


Excuse me! What you think of the LDS Church nothing to do with this.

And can you not follow? Jews who rejected Jesus certainly have nothing to do with this, and I don't give a rip about how they worshipped, or what you think they did to worship. That is completely immaterial to what I'm speaking of.

God instituted temple worship. What do you think the purpose of that worship was - what do you think its focus was, if not the Christ?

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: God instituted temple worship.

And we obviously screwed it up bigtime. But there will be a Temple in the Millennial Kingdom.

Until then the Temple is destroyed, and making fake ones is a waste of time and money.

[MJB]

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: God instituted temple worship.

And we obviously screwed it up bigtime. But there will be a Temple in the Millennial Kingdom.

Until then the Temple is destroyed, and making fake ones is a waste of time and money.

Obviously you have no idea and are unable to answer. You are also so intently biased that you're incapable of objectively conversing, and attempting further dialog with you is an act of futility. Therefore - Adios

[cap'n queasy]

You know what MJB? We are going to have to agree to disagree. I think you are totally mistaken in what you believe, but I don't hold any hard feelings toward you.

But if you continue to discuss theology with me I'm just going to keep telling you the same thing. So maybe you should avoid that if it bothers you.

[John]

cap'n queasy wrote: Angelicus wrote: Nope. Not really. I seriously don't hold any particular denominational affiliation.

In part because, well I don't see them in the scriptures. I see the church.

(emphasis on the period :lol: )

That is a great point. :-D

Seconded.

[toddytodd]

I am getting into this discussion late, but can (or has) anyone explained why works are just as essential as faith?

Does this mean that to get into heaven, one has to 'do good works' as well as have faith?

Is this how the idea of 'to get to heaven you must be a good person' came from?