Political Crossfire Forums

[MJB]

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: It keeps our focus squarely on Christ as we, in faith and humility, submit ourselves in obedience to him.


You are saying to obey Christ, but then asking folks to disobey Him by exalting their own works over the work of Christ. You believe in the power of your work, not in Christ. Obviously, this is not what Y'shua taught.

Quote: John 6:28 Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?" 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

People asked Y'shua "how do we do the work of God, and Y'shua's answer was simple and direct. Believe in who He sent.

The work of God is to believe, nothing else. When you really believe in Christ, instead of a pseudo-Christian interpretation of doctrine you will understand this.


Quote: Is it not clear enough?

But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
No, not the way you present it. That says doers of the word, not doers of work. The Word, who is Christ, tells us that the work of God is to believe in Him, who God sent. John 6:28-29.

Hearing the truth about the work Christ did on our behalf, disbelieving it and substituting your own work for that of Y'shua HaMashiach is self-delusion, I'm sorry to inform you. .

This is completely false. Nothing I have said or quoted remotely suggests that man is to exalt his works above Christ, which is absurdly impossible from the get go!

To the contrary.

Ignore the scriptures if you please, but if we truly believe in Jesus Christ, and accept him, we believe in his teachings, and accept them. We do as he taught, we are obedient to him, we keep his commandments, and we follow him, or strive so to do. This is not exalting ourselves, or our works, above him. It is submitting ourselves to him in humility, as our Savior.

For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

So - I'm sorry to inform you, but you have it entirely backwards, and it is self-delusion to think that doing as the Lord has commanded us, is substituting our works for his.

[MJB]

cap'n queasy wrote: Did the thief that died with Y'shua spend his life doing "good works"?

Not according to him. He had this to say about his deeds "And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds;" Luke 23:40.

He deserved to suffer because of all the things he had done, according to his own testimony.

Yet this is what Y'shua said to him: "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise." Luke 23:43

How could this be if "good works" are necessary for salvation? The answer is simple to understand, it is because this criminal did in fact do the one thing Y'shua identified as the work of God in his final moments, he believed in Y'shua. All the bad things he had done mattered not a whit. He joined Y'shua in Paradise that day simply because when He heard who Y'shua was he believed it.

How this could be, is that Jesus did not tell the thief he was saved, as per your assumption, only that he would be with him that day in paradise. If you are interpreting this to mean that the thief was received into heaven upon his death, you should take note that Jesus, between his death and resurrection, went and preached unto the spirits in prison, where the thief likely was as well. Jesus did not ascend into heaven until after his resurrection.

[eynon]

Nathyn wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: Example of some evil works a marooned man might engage in: Cursing God for being marooned. Killing and/or abusing wildlife out of boredom and anger. Entertaining inappropriate fantasies (take your pick). The list could go on.

Example of some good works a marooned man could engage in: Prayer! (Lots of it!) Thanking God for preserving his life through the storm and shipwreck. Asking for God's help in obtaining food and shelter. Thanking God for one's food and shelter. Praying for loved ones back home. Being compassionate toward other living creatures on the land and in the sea around him. This list could also go on.

These are all works, and they won't go unnoticed by God. Nor will they go unpunished, or unrewarded, as the case may be. Even someone who is paralyzed, and cannot walk, or talk, or even move, can engage in good or evil works, via his thoughts and attitudes.

You are totally missing the point. The "faith vs works" controversy deals only with whether salvation is freely given by God's grace, or earned by some type of work on our part. Obviously any Christian is going to pray and be thankful for food when stuck in a terrible situation, like being marooned on an island. But it is not warranted to expect brownie points for being thankful for your food or whatever. And this is what I have maintained all along.

These works do not create the condition of salvation and that is my point. God's grace alone can do that. You cannot "earn" your way into deserving salvation, simply because you don't have the proper "currency" to pay the way. The only legal tender that can pay the price is removal of sin, and neither works or faith can remove sin. God's grace is the only power that can accomplish that. Of course, God has promised us we can receive this unmerited favor by believing, but that does not mean it is your faith that brings salvation. Only that God was graceful enough to grant us this opportunity to be saved if we repent and accept Him as our Savior and Lord.

We know Y'shua told us the the work of God is to believe, and we know that to believe in Christ is to accept the great commission to go out to every nation and people and spread the good news about Moshiach. Therefore it follows that if you profess faith, but do nothing to evangelize then your faith is dead. Quite simply evangelism is the work Y'shua told us is the work of God. You are going to do more to give people real help if you tell them about the good news, than if you simply give them some money. Give a man a loaf of bread and he eats that day, but tell him about the Bread of Life and he can eat forever.

Nathyn's accusation that the majority of modern Christians are promiscuous, smoke crack, and then go home to beat their kids and then pop over to the church to be forgiven, quite frankly, ridiculous. The thing that is so screwy about this opinion is that if that one of those very same Christians tried to tell him God does not want people to be promiscuous or to smoke crack he would to view that as an attack on his freedom.

Yet he is not mad at a Christian that says promiscuity is not bad, or that smoking crack is not bad. He is mad at the one who tells him these things are bad and ironically accuses them of indulging in this behavior to justify this attitude. This is hypocritical in the extreme. He simply does not equate someone trying to help people see that sin is going to hurt them as a good work. He looks at it as an annoyance. He cares not a whit about sin, and does not even think it exists, yet without basis he makes generalized accusations of sinfulness about people he has a grudge against.
God's grace removes the price for sin -- it's totally our choice whether to sin or not.

You choose to believe in Jesus, but then sin anyway, because you think true faith involves just acknowledging Christ's existence and not letting it actually impact your daily choices.

It's pretty clear from James 2 that faith implies works, that "faith without works is dead."

What does that passage mean to you?


it means "walk the walk"...........James doesn't deal with salvation, his issues are ethics.

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: Nothing I have said or quoted remotely suggests that man is to exalt his works above Christ

You have repeatedly stated that it is following a certain mode of behavior that is the most important thing we can do. It is not. Believing in Y'shua's work to redeem our sins is the most important.

When you state, or even imply, that it is a person's activity that brings remission of sin, rather than YHWH's grace, you are exalting that person's activity above Christ and that is all there is to it.

[MJB]

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: Nothing I have said or quoted remotely suggests that man is to exalt his works above Christ

You have repeatedly stated that it is following a certain mode of behavior that is the most important thing we can do. It is not. Believing in Y'shua's work to redeem our sins is the most important.

When you state, or even imply, that it is a person's activity that brings remission of sin, rather than YHWH's grace, you are exalting that person's activity above Christ and that is all there is to it.

You can continue to accuse me of exalting works above Christ as you please, but I have done no such thing. Just as in the past, I have simply addressed the scriptures. They say what they say.

We are saved by the grace and mercy of God, being completely dependent upon Jesus Christ for our salvation, as there is nothing we could ever do to save ourselves. However - James, chapter 2, clearly covers the need for both faith and works, and states specifically in verse 26, "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

In Acts 5:32 we see that the Holy Ghost is given to those that "obey" God. Again - Hebrews 5:9 states that the Lord, "became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." And, as is said of Jesus himself, in Hebrews 5:8, "Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered." In Matthew 3:15 we learn that even Jesus, though he was without sin, was baptized to, "fulfill all righteousness." And in Matthew 28:20, Jesus sent the apostles out to teach and baptize all nations, "teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you."

So we can clearly see, that obedience to Christ, in following the laws and ordinances of his gospel, does not negate faith, but rather - such are the works of our living faith in Christ, without whom, we could not hope for salvation. As Paul, indeed, said - "For by grace are ye saved through faith."

We must believe in Christ, having faith in him.
We must repent of our sins.
We must be baptized.
We must receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
We must obey the commandments.
We must endure to the end.

Believe in Christ, having faith in him.

Luke 7: 50
50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

John 5: 24
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Acts 26: 18
18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Repent of our sins.

Matthew 4:17
¶ From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mark 1:15
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Luke 13:1-5
5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

2 Pet. 3: 9
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Rev. 2: 5
5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Be baptized.

Matt. 3: 13-15
13 ¶ Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

Mark 16: 16
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Luke 7: 30
30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.

Acts 22: 16
16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Gal. 3: 27
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

John 3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Acts 2: 38
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 5: 32
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Acts 10: 45
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 11: 16
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Obey the commandments.

Matt. 5: 19
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Matt. 7:21
¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Matt. 19: 17
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Matt. 28: 20
19 ¶ Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Acts 5: 32
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Rom. 6: 16
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Heb. 5: 9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Rev. 14: 12
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Endure to the end.

Matt. 24: 13
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mark 13: 13
13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

1 Cor. 10: 12
12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Heb. 3:14
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

2 Peter 1:10
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

2 Peter 3:17
Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

Since faith without works is dead, why could one think to be justified if he denies those works the Lord has said he is to do - and still claim to have faith in him?

No Christian I've ever known believes he can earn his way into heaven. We are dependent on the grace and mercies of God, through the atonement of Christ, for our salvation. No matter what we might do, no matter how many good things we do in a day or in a lifetime - none of us would be able to save ourselves. We are completely dependent on our Savior for redemption.

However - if we say we have faith in Christ, but do not do those things he has said - then we deny the faith, being void of the belief in him which we profess to hold. Faith in Christ means we not only believe in who he is, but we believe in what he says - in ALL that he says. Therefore - if he says - do this - we do it. If he says do that - we do it. If he says don't - we don't. And - of course - if and when we stumble - which we all do - be our sins large or small - sins of commission or omission - we repent of them, and begin anew. This is not earning our way into heaven. This is being obedient to he whom we claim as our Lord, God, and King.

Christ came to save us from our sins - not in our sins. Repentance and obedience is the way of life for those who put their faith in Christ as their Savior and Redeemer. This is how we stay in the path to eternal life. This is how we are reconciled to God - and it's what enduring to the end means - to continue in the way, that we may be cleansed from sin, and saved in the Kingdom of God, by the only one who has the power to save us, even Jesus Christ.

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: We are saved by the grace and mercy of God, being completely dependent upon Jesus Christ for our salvation, as there is nothing we could ever do to save ourselves.

That is all you have to say. Nothing else you bring up is germane to the argument. This is the Christian doctrine of salvation.

All the other stuff you are bringing up is attempt to bind people to a humanly developed religious hierarchy by use of legalistic doctrine.

Quote: Since faith without works is dead, why could one think to be justified if he denies those works the Lord has said he is to do - and still claim to have faith in him?

This is where we run into problems with the type of theology you espouse. The only one who should be concerned about the possible justification (or lack of it) of their works is themselves. God will judge everyone for their work correctly. He certainly doesn't need the help of anyone down here to do it, and that's for sure.

And that is exactly why I have pointed out several times that James did not speak as a point of doctrine, but rather in the interest of self-examination. If you try to make the argument he established crucial doctrine you "miss the mark", so to speak. You begin to contradict the entire focus of the scripture.

[MJB]

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: We are saved by the grace and mercy of God, being completely dependent upon Jesus Christ for our salvation, as there is nothing we could ever do to save ourselves.

That is all you have to say. Nothing else you bring up is germane to the argument. This is the Christian doctrine of salvation.

All the other stuff you are bringing up is attempt to bind people to a humanly developed religious hierarchy by use of legalistic doctrine.

All the, "other stuff," is stated scripture. Ignoring it doesn't change anything.

Quote: Quote: Since faith without works is dead, why could one think to be justified if he denies those works the Lord has said he is to do - and still claim to have faith in him?

This is where we run into problems with the type of theology you espouse. The only one who should be concerned about the possible justification (or lack of it) of their works is themselves. God will judge everyone for their work correctly. He certainly doesn't need the help of anyone down here to do it, and that's for sure.

No - this is where you run into problems. I'm not the one who keeps having to ignore scripture in order to reconcile his theology.

Quote: And that is exactly why I have pointed out several times that James did not speak as a point of doctrine, but rather in the interest of self-examination. If you try to make the argument he established crucial doctrine you "miss the mark", so to speak. You begin to contradict the entire focus of the scripture.

The apostles taught the doctrines of Christ. Tweak them into whatever you want, but the scriptures say what they say.

[cap'n queasy]

Perhaps when the works based religious heirarchists of the world liquidate all of their considerable assets and give them to the poor instead of using their legalistic doctrines to scare people into giving them billions of dollars in profit every year, which they spend largely on their own comfort and security, it will be easier to see why I am wrong and you are right.

And I mean all assets, real estate, vehicles, expensive ornamentation, art masterpieces, rare books, entertainment facilities, opulent temples and churches, vacation homes, hidden assets, everything. The entire kit and caboodle. We are talking about trillions of dollars here. Well over what it would cost to build modern infrastructure in every place in the world that has people suffering.

When you look at the works of these organizations in this light, it is easy to see that their works don't account for very much.

Don't tell me about having to ignore scripture to appreciate the greatness of the works these people are performing. You have to ignore scripture to justify this blatant hypocrisy.

[Todd D.]

I've never understood how people can believe that Faith and Works can work independently. It's not even that they are two things that we must have, it's that they are the same thing. Yes, we are chosen by God and God knows all who will be saved, and it's nothing that we have done to save ourselves, but unless you lack a concept of Free Will, we are still responsible for the concious decisions that we make. As such, our actions are ALWAYS a reflection of our faith. We walk with God, but like Peter, we can choose turn away and deny God (and what does Jesus say about those who deny Him?). It's a walk of faith, and it's reflected in everything that we do (aka our works). The two are simply inseperable.

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: I've never understood how people can believe that Faith and Works can work independently.

That's not the argument.

The argument is where we should focus our attention. If you focus it on God your works will be good, as God will work through you, regardless of what you do. But if you focus your attention on other things, other considerations will emerge and you might end up with a 6 billion dollar annual take that is spent on bulls**t that has absolutely nothing to do with performing good works sitting on your soul. That's nothing but a giant millstone around your neck.

If you are accomplishing good things I would say it is because the Holy Spirit is working through you, not that you are good, ie not a sinner. No one can "work" themselves out from under that burden.

Anyway, I hope that clarifies my position a bit. I don't make these arguments to be contrary, I think this is an important theological point to consider carefully.

[Todd D.]

I concur.

[cap'n queasy]

Ah, that feels good. :-D

[Gilbert1908]

Todd D. wrote: I've never understood how people can believe that Faith and Works can work independently. It's not even that they are two things that we must have, it's that they are the same thing. Yes, we are chosen by God and God knows all who will be saved, and it's nothing that we have done to save ourselves, but unless you lack a concept of Free Will, we are still responsible for the concious decisions that we make. As such, our actions are ALWAYS a reflection of our faith. We walk with God, but like Peter, we can choose turn away and deny God (and what does Jesus say about those who deny Him?). It's a walk of faith, and it's reflected in everything that we do (aka our works). The two are simply inseperable.

But there is a progression to our human mind by which we come to realize your perfect example of how this all relates and that is the point of the question posed and the answers by those of us (you included of course) who seek to explain the error of the premise.

Holy Spirit > Faith > Works

One is moved to faith through the Holy Spirit and the subsequent Faith has the reisdual effect upon our will to be inspired by God's GOODNESS in the form of a "good works". But you point out the most important aspect of our "faith" and that is that we all will doubt or fail to do the right thing or as in the case of Peter even deny God. But the door is always open, it never closes it is always there for us to enter, we need ONLY do what is difficult for some and impossible for many, believe.

What seems very simple and obvious to us, needs to be mapped out for those who do not see Christianity for what it is, but for what they NEED it to be in order for it to be unworthy of their belief.

For those who "worship" logic Christianity MUST be illogical.
For those who "worship chaos it MUST be too structured.
For those who "worship" humanity Chrisitianity MUST be inhuman.
For those who "worship" the self Christianity MUST be only for the weak minded.

[MJB]

cap'n queasy wrote: Perhaps when the works based religious heirarchists of the world liquidate all of their considerable assets and give them to the poor instead of using their legalistic doctrines to scare people into giving them billions of dollars in profit every year, which they spend largely on their own comfort and security, it will be easier to see why I am wrong and you are right.

And I mean all assets, real estate, vehicles, expensive ornamentation, art masterpieces, rare books, entertainment facilities, opulent temples and churches, vacation homes, hidden assets, everything. The entire kit and caboodle. We are talking about trillions of dollars here. Well over what it would cost to build modern infrastructure in every place in the world that has people suffering.

When you look at the works of these organizations in this light, it is easy to see that their works don't account for very much.

Don't tell me about having to ignore scripture to appreciate the greatness of the works these people are performing. You have to ignore scripture to justify this blatant hypocrisy.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Well since the LDS Church does not have a paid ministry, with preachers lining their pockets, and no one is living off the tithes and offerings given, except the poor, much less living in the lap of luxury you have attempted to portray, and since most of the other things don't apply to the LDS Church either, you'll have to go elsewhere to some of those other organizations to point your bony finger of condemnation. Though - don't be too disheartened when you find yourself pointing to some of those in your own anti-works camp.

As for assets - I take it you're not an economy major. Let me give you just a little example of one of the assets the LDS Church has. Some friends of ours just returned from a mission (at their own expense, mind you) working on a large Church owned cattle ranch. The ranch is self supporting and operates in the black, unlike most of the non-LDS ranches in the region. What is the purpose of this ranch and where do its profits go? To feed the poor, and provide humanitarian aid around the world to those in need, regardless of religion, I might add. Now - if the Church sold the ranch, that would be one less resource they would have to continue to assist the poor, which you seem so concerned with. There is nothing hypocritical about wise money and resource management. It's called being a good steward.

As for Temples. Well - I am certain that even in ancient Israel, there were some disgruntled, resentful, individuals who begrudged the cost of the Tabernacle and the Temples which God commanded they build. But if you have a problem with it, you'll just have to take it up with the Lord, as Temples are his house.

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: As for Temples. Well - I am certain that even in ancient Israel, there were some disgruntled, resentful, individuals who begrudged the cost of the Tabernacle and the Temples which God commanded they build. But if you have a problem with it, you'll just have to take it up with the Lord, as Temples are his house.
One of them was named Y'shua ben Yosef BTW. He had a problem with the religious heirarchists of His day who focused on something besides YHWH's Promise to Israel, Moshiach.

I'm sure they were being good stewards in their business dealings concerning the temple in Jerusalem, it is known that they did a lot to help the poor of Israel with the proceeds. Contrary to popular belief Jews are very generous people. There is a good bit of unfortunate attitudes toward Jews that can be attributed to misinterpreting the NT in a very exaggerated way that portrayed Jews as these horrible people who were greedy money grubbers leaching off of the temple. This is not how it was at all. They were good people, they just got so caught up in their religiosity and legalism that they lost focus of Moshiach. Just like many people do today. The thing is they were "good stewards" and no one was as "obedient" to every single detail of the Law. No one followed the Law as closely as they did. Of course it was in a lawyerly, legalistic way but that is exactly what is going on today with so many organizations and people are saying that is the good thing to do.

The focus of scripture is always on Christ. Not the Temple or it's doings. The church is people, not real estate. It is your heart with the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit that is the temple. God doesn't live in a house he lives in believers.

Here's the passage.
Quote: 14 And He found in the temple those who were selling oxen and sheep and doves, and the money changers seated at their tables. 15 And He made a scourge of cords, and drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen; and He poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables; 16 and to those who were selling the doves He said, "Take these things away; stop making My Father's house a place of business." 17 His disciples remembered that it was written, "ZEAL FOR YOUR HOUSE WILL CONSUME ME." 18 The Jews then said to Him, "What sign do You show us as your authority for doing these things?" 19 Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." 20 The Jews then said, "It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?" 21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body. 22 So when He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He said this; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had spoken.

Notice it points out twice that the disciples remembered the scriptures and that they believed what Y'shua had spoken.

He had destroyed legalism and religiosity and raised Himself, a true redemption for us, up in it's place. You gotta do more than just clean the outside of the cup. You have sin that must be cleaned, and Y'shua is the cleanser. Believe in him.

Another good chapter to examine carefully that is concerned with the subject is Matthew 23.
http://www.searchgodsword.org/desk/?query=mt+23&t=nas&language=en&sr=0&l=en

[MJB]

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: As for Temples. Well - I am certain that even in ancient Israel, there were some disgruntled, resentful, individuals who begrudged the cost of the Tabernacle and the Temples which God commanded they build. But if you have a problem with it, you'll just have to take it up with the Lord, as Temples are his house.
One of them was named Y'shua ben Yosef BTW. He had a problem with the religious heirarchists of His day who focused on something besides YHWH's Promise to Israel, Moshiach.

I'm sure they were being good stewards in their business dealings concerning the temple in Jerusalem, it is known that they did a lot to help the poor of Israel with the proceeds. Contrary to popular belief Jews are very generous people. There is a good bit of unfortunate attitudes toward Jews that can be attributed to misinterpreting the NT in a very exaggerated way that portrayed Jews as these horrible people who were greedy money grubbers leaching off of the temple. This is not how it was at all. They were good people, they just got so caught up in their religiosity and legalism that they lost focus of Moshiach. Just like many people do today. The thing is they were "good stewards" and no one was as "obedient" to every single detail of the Law. No one followed the Law as closely as they did. Of course it was in a lawyerly, legalistic way but that is exactly what is going on today with so many organizations and people are saying that is the good thing to do.

The focus of scripture is always on Christ. Not the Temple or it's doings. The church is people, not real estate. It is your heart with the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit that is the temple. God doesn't live in a house he lives in believers.

Here's the passage.
Quote: 14 And He found in the temple those who were selling oxen and sheep and doves, and the money changers seated at their tables. 15 And He made a scourge of cords, and drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen; and He poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables; 16 and to those who were selling the doves He said, "Take these things away; stop making My Father's house a place of business." 17 His disciples remembered that it was written, "ZEAL FOR YOUR HOUSE WILL CONSUME ME." 18 The Jews then said to Him, "What sign do You show us as your authority for doing these things?" 19 Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." 20 The Jews then said, "It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?" 21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body. 22 So when He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He said this; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had spoken.

Notice it points out twice that the disciples remembered the scriptures and that they believed what Y'shua had spoken.

He had destroyed legalism and religiosity and raised Himself, a true redemption for us, up in it's place. You gotta do more than just clean the outside of the cup. You have sin that must be cleaned, and Y'shua is the cleanser. Believe in him.

Another good chapter to examine carefully that is concerned with the subject is Matthew 23.
http://www.searchgodsword.org/desk/?query=mt+23&t=nas&language=en&sr=0&l=en

I see you are continuing to skew things. First of all - while the Jews in question did not understand that Jesus was speaking in metaphor of his body, when saying, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up," Jesus' words, in referring to his death and resurrection, were no way an indictment of temples, and did not diminish the sacred nature of the temple as a holy place of worship and service to God.

Secondly - when God commanded the building of temples, he commanded the manner in which they were to be constructed, including the precious materials that were to be used. Jesus cleansing the Temple had nothing to do with any disapproval of the cost of it, and everything to do with its defilement, it being a sacred and holy sanctuary, literally a, "House of The Lord."

Your twisting things reflects your lack of understanding of the temple. The temple was central to both Old and New Testament/Covenant worship, and a place Jesus, himself, taught daily, the scriptures say. He, more than any other, reverenced the Temple, and took offense, not at the temple or worship in it, but at the defilement of it.

And, lest you wish to continue to insinuate that the focus of temple worship was not Christ, let me remind you that it was in the temple that Gabriel appeared to the temple priest, Zacharias, to tell him Elisabeth would bare a son, and they were to name him John, and it was he who would prepare the people for the coming of the Lord. They, by the way, being, "both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless."

And let me remind you that it was on the day Joseph and Mary took the babe Jesus to the temple to present him to the Lord, that Simeon, who, likewise, "was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel," was directed by the Spirit to go to the temple that day, after having been promised he would see the face of the Christ before he died.

And it was also that same day at the temple, that the prophetess Anna, who, "departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day," who, "coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem."

These, were devout servants of God, and in righteousness and obedience, worshipped and served God in his Holy Temple. These, as other faithful, knew of Christ, and were awaiting his advent, and knew him when he came. After Christ, as well, the apostles, after being beaten and commanded not to speak the name of Jesus, rejoiced, "And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ." So don't try to spin Jesus cleansing the temple, into a criticism of the temple. The focus was always Christ, from the very beginning.

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: Your twisting things reflects your lack of understanding of the temple.

Nope, sorry, it is you and Mormon doctrine who are twisting things around because it follows the exact type of religious impulse that led the Pharisees astray. Works driven legalism disguised with false piety was their downfall. They were always obedient to their religious tenets and did plenty of charity just as LDS does, yet somehow they had missed the mark by a considerable margin, just as LDS does. They both had cleaned the outside of the cup, but inside it was still corruption.

This was what had defiled the Temple. If you knew Christ in any small measure you would realize this and would not continue to argue the point or defend your organizations attempt to create corrupted facsimiles of the only real Temple, the one in Jerusalem. If you truly knew anything about the system of temple worship in Israel you would understand that what you attempt to label as Mormon "temples" would have been called synagogues in Israel. There could be only one Temple, which existed on a specific spot for a specific reason and couldn't be duplicated, and it is destroyed.

God never gave Joseph Smith or his successors authority to go around constructing dozens of "temples" to replace the one destroyed in Jerusalem.

[greeneye]

John wrote: greeneye wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: and neither works or faith can remove sin. God's grace is the only power that can accomplish that.

Why do Christians believe this?

Because it's true.

I initially book marked a link to this thread and when I posted my question, and I miss-takingly thought I was posting my question to the "religion" forum thinking I might get some different points of views from non Christians

But as I see that my question was posted on the Christianity forum, I do understand how the subject of original sin and how it is 'removed' from man's slate is not often questioned by many Christians and is accepted as scripture writes it.

Personally, I never could buy into the "original sin" concept from a very early age. For the most part, there is very little trace of the concept of original sin among the early apostolic fathers, who for the most part believed that no sin could prevent man from choosing good over evil by his own free will. The whole issue became controversial in the fifth century and then it all came to a head in 529 A.D. and the matter was settled through a decree by the Synod of Orange. That decree was that Adam's sin corrupted the body and soul of the whole human race; sin and death are a result of Adam's disobedience. The synod also declared that because of sin, man's free will is so weakened that "no one is able to love God as he ought, or believe in God, or do anything for God which is good, except the grace of divine mercy comes first to him." Thus, grace and not human merit was primary to salvation.

This was a big deal back then and there was much that was at stake during the debate over original sin. The controversy threatened to undermine (threaten) the role of the Church in the life of the communicant. The Church at that time taught its followers that baptism was the way through which the faithful were initiated into the Church and introduced to grace, and that a life of grace was sustained by the sacraments. If the sacrament of baptism was no longer recognized as being necessary to wash away original sin and to attain salvation, then the Church and its clergy would be expendable.

Thus, the Roman Church with this decree (doctrine or original sin) doomed the entire human race to failure except through the saving grace of Jesus Christ, which is a law that I do not believe is a law of God and cannot be fulfilled as they have so declared it.

I realize many Christians accept this doctrine as truth.... but the burden of condemnation from "original sin", which Augustine preached, I believe is a figment of someone's human imagination. :?

[cap'n queasy]

The description of sin and what it is and how it transformed the human race into what is today is clearly given in the third chapter of the Book of Genesis.

No authority over rides that of the scripture.

That kind of thinking is going to really hurt you IMHO. Sin is merely a byproduct of living in a corrupted physical state, specifically designed to bring awareness of good and evil. Animals do not recognize good and evil specifically because they do not have the capacity to comprehend the difference between good and evil. It is a knowledge they can never possess.

An animal could kill and eat it's own mother and you couldn't say it was evil, but if a man did that, practically everyone, except the most spiritually lost and depraved of people, would recognize that as an evil act and then that would only be an act of denial. They would know in their heart of hearts it was evil, but they simply are refusing to choose good by denying good or evil even exist! It is lack of the presence of sin that keeps an animal from being able to choose good over evil. So you have it backwards I'd say. You can't possibly choose good over evil by means of free will unless you are exposed to the presence of sin and can comprehend good and evil.

It is only when your sin is removed, by Grace, that it is possible for you to return to your true habitation as a spiritual being in an uncorrupted resurrection body to be with God.

Hope that helps :-D

[eynon]

go capn...........:)