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cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Quote: It seems like you're arguing for that type of modern doctrine now.

The Pharisees had an extremely works driven theology, almost exactly like what you are endorsing here. That is exactly the doctrine you are arguing for, not me.

Nathyn · Joined: 25 Sep 2005 Posts: 7681 Location: The Great Satan

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: It seems like you're arguing for that type of modern doctrine now.

The Pharisees had an extremely works driven theology, almost exactly like what you are endorsing here. That is exactly the doctrine you are arguing for, not me.
I'm not arguing for a "works-driven" theology.

For the Pharisees, doing certain acts justified salvation apart from belief. I'm not arguing that, but that belief implies acts, that is, works.

Nathyn · Joined: 25 Sep 2005 Posts: 7681 Location: The Great Satan

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: but some level of works are required.
Not required at all, simply a measure for you to judge the true extent of your personal commitment. All works, even good ones, don't improve your spiritual state. they are an effect in your life of improvement in your spiritual state. You could do good works 24/7 and it could really help a lot of folks and it would never propitiate your sins. Your sins have happened and cannot be erased, justice must be served for any sin you carry.

This is the point of Christianity, that you must be redeemed from the righteous price that must be exacted to pay for the evil your sins have caused, and the price of redemption is paid by the blood of Christ. His work is the only work that has ever brought men salvation.

Another crucial point I think is being missed is that what James had to say on the matter is from the perspective of self analysis, not as a way to judge other people as sinners. Judging a person as a sinner is as simple as pointing at any person around you. All are sinners, and it is this sin that must be removed.

Here's what I think is a pretty good illustration of the concept I am trying to convey:

Look at the New Testament and consider which figure contained within do you think is probably the most righteous guy, after Y'shua? John the Baptist, likely. What was the character of his works? He sat around all day in the wilderness dunking people in water and proclaiming some old prophecy. He wasn't feeding the poor, heck, he had to eat grasshoppers himself. Does this mean he didn't meet the requirements of salvation, because he didn't work enough to try to alleviate social ills? Were his works counted as less righteousness? Not by a longshot.

And, in the Old Testament, I would say Abraham was counted as an extremely righteous man, but what he is known for is agreeing to kill his son for God, trading his wife for his own safety, several military actions that were basically slaughters, and haggling with God. Would you say he constantly tried to address social issues thereby building his spiritual advancement until he wasn't sinner anymore? Or would you say that he lived his life in a righteous way despite the difficulty he encountered?

According to Y'shua, Abraham was counted as righteous because he believed in the Almighty I AM, he had faith in a God who delights in making and keeping His promises. This faith in YHWH was justified by YHWH's sending of Moshiach, as our Paschal lamb, to be sacrificed to pay the price owed for sin in our stead. Sin is an inevitable consequence of material existence and must be dealt with somehow. God is Holy and one's sin's must be removed to exist in His presence.

Both of these men were counted righteous by the New Testament account because of their faith, not their works in addressing social issues. They believed in God's promises implicitly, even if they couldn't possibly imagine how they would be finally fulfilled thousands of years in the future. To the modern paradigm this sounds like foolishness, but the fact is the majority of God's promises have come to pass and we are nearing the time when the last few will be realized.

These two personages fed men's souls with the Bread of Life, manna from heaven, in their ministries. They did not make it their business to put earthly bread in men's bellies, other than in a capacity of personal hospitality to a few individuals. Are their works counted as less because of this? In my opinion they are not.

This is not to say that policies that address social ills aren't a good thing, they definitely help people and good people want to help others, but I do not think it is a good idea to tie them to any particular religious viewpoint when instituted as political policy, or as function of government such as law. And I do not think that any type of proposal along those lines can be portrayed as an accurate representation of what Y'shua's teachings were meant to convey.

Anyway, just some things to consider.
You're rambling on selectively quotations of scripture without addressing Jesus' statement:

Quote: Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

And James 2.

I've offered my interpretation of all the scripture you've put forth, and as I've said, all it shows that the Pharisees' salvation-through-works is false doctrine. But on the contrary, the scripture I've shown also shows that "faith," cannot exist without works. You've ignored the scripture I've cited and instead, just chose to whip out your own passages, as if you can somehow establish truth by citing a contradictory passage.

Instead of pulling out passages about salvation-through-works and attacking me personally, address the quote above and James 2.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Quote: You've ignored the scripture I've cited and instead, just chose to whip out your own passages, as if you can somehow establish truth by citing a contradictory passage.

The "contradictory passages" I am citing are contradictory to what you are trying to make the scripture say because you are totally misinterpreting the concept in the first place. Nowhere in anything you have cited here does it say that Faith cannot exist without works, nor does it even imply it. A person could be marooned alone on a desert island for the rest of their life and have Faith. How would you exhibit works in a situation like that? You can't, ergo, it's a superficial point. It doesn't hold up to examination, as my example of being marooned alone yet having faith plainly shows. .

Your point is quite simply limited by it's superficial viewpoint.

And as I have already pointed out regarding James.
Quote: Another crucial point I think is being missed is that what James had to say on the matter is from the perspective of self analysis, not as a way to judge other people as sinners.

This passage does not exist so Nathyn can make some baseless gross generalizations about people he doesn't know. It is exists for the purposes of self-introspection and examination by the reader.

The fact is your entire point is an ad hominem attack on a particular viewpoint you happen to despise. And you support it weakly and immaturely. Your citation of James 2 to prove your point is specious, as the examples I provided in the above showed plainly show.

MJB · Joined: 14 Apr 2006 Posts: 594

cap'n queasy wrote: A person could be marooned alone on a desert island for the rest of their life and have Faith. How would you exhibit works in a situation like that? You can't, ergo, it's a superficial point. It doesn't hold up to examination, as my example of being marooned alone yet having faith plainly shows.

Plainly shows? Do you think works are only those things other people see us do? What do you think works are? Are they not actions? Are they not thoughts and deeds? The person marooned alone on a desert island is every bit as capable of exhibiting works, be they good, or evil, as anyone anywhere else on the planet.

Example of some evil works a marooned man might engage in: Cursing God for being marooned. Killing and/or abusing wildlife out of boredom and anger. Entertaining inappropriate fantasies (take your pick). The list could go on.

Example of some good works a marooned man could engage in: Prayer! (Lots of it!) Thanking God for preserving his life through the storm and shipwreck. Asking for God's help in obtaining food and shelter. Thanking God for one's food and shelter. Praying for loved ones back home. Being compassionate toward other living creatures on the land and in the sea around him. This list could also go on.

These are all works, and they won't go unnoticed by God. Nor will they go unpunished, or unrewarded, as the case may be. Even someone who is paralyzed, and cannot walk, or talk, or even move, can engage in good or evil works, via his thoughts and attitudes.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Quote: Example of some evil works a marooned man might engage in: Cursing God for being marooned. Killing and/or abusing wildlife out of boredom and anger. Entertaining inappropriate fantasies (take your pick). The list could go on.

Example of some good works a marooned man could engage in: Prayer! (Lots of it!) Thanking God for preserving his life through the storm and shipwreck. Asking for God's help in obtaining food and shelter. Thanking God for one's food and shelter. Praying for loved ones back home. Being compassionate toward other living creatures on the land and in the sea around him. This list could also go on.

These are all works, and they won't go unnoticed by God. Nor will they go unpunished, or unrewarded, as the case may be. Even someone who is paralyzed, and cannot walk, or talk, or even move, can engage in good or evil works, via his thoughts and attitudes.

You are totally missing the point. The "faith vs works" controversy deals only with whether salvation is freely given by God's grace, or earned by some type of work on our part. Obviously any Christian is going to pray and be thankful for food when stuck in a terrible situation, like being marooned on an island. But it is not warranted to expect brownie points for being thankful for your food or whatever. And this is what I have maintained all along.

These works do not create the condition of salvation and that is my point. God's grace alone can do that. You cannot "earn" your way into deserving salvation, simply because you don't have the proper "currency" to pay the way. The only legal tender that can pay the price is removal of sin, and neither works or faith can remove sin. God's grace is the only power that can accomplish that. Of course, God has promised us we can receive this unmerited favor by believing, but that does not mean it is your faith that brings salvation. Only that God was graceful enough to grant us this opportunity to be saved if we repent and accept Him as our Savior and Lord.

We know Y'shua told us the the work of God is to believe, and we know that to believe in Christ is to accept the great commission to go out to every nation and people and spread the good news about Moshiach. Therefore it follows that if you profess faith, but do nothing to evangelize then your faith is dead. Quite simply evangelism is the work Y'shua told us is the work of God. You are going to do more to give people real help if you tell them about the good news, than if you simply give them some money. Give a man a loaf of bread and he eats that day, but tell him about the Bread of Life and he can eat forever.

Nathyn's accusation that the majority of modern Christians are promiscuous, smoke crack, and then go home to beat their kids and then pop over to the church to be forgiven, quite frankly, ridiculous. The thing that is so screwy about this opinion is that if that one of those very same Christians tried to tell him God does not want people to be promiscuous or to smoke crack he would to view that as an attack on his freedom.

Yet he is not mad at a Christian that says promiscuity is not bad, or that smoking crack is not bad. He is mad at the one who tells him these things are bad and ironically accuses them of indulging in this behavior to justify this attitude. This is hypocritical in the extreme. He simply does not equate someone trying to help people see that sin is going to hurt them as a good work. He looks at it as an annoyance. He cares not a whit about sin, and does not even think it exists, yet without basis he makes generalized accusations of sinfulness about people he has a grudge against.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 22954

MJB wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: A person could be marooned alone on a desert island for the rest of their life and have Faith. How would you exhibit works in a situation like that? You can't, ergo, it's a superficial point. It doesn't hold up to examination, as my example of being marooned alone yet having faith plainly shows.

Plainly shows? Do you think works are only those things other people see us do? What do you think works are? Are they not actions? Are they not thoughts and deeds? The person marooned alone on a desert island is every bit as capable of exhibiting works, be they good, or evil, as anyone anywhere else on the planet.

Example of some evil works a marooned man might engage in: Cursing God for being marooned. Killing and/or abusing wildlife out of boredom and anger. Entertaining inappropriate fantasies (take your pick). The list could go on.

Example of some good works a marooned man could engage in: Prayer! (Lots of it!) Thanking God for preserving his life through the storm and shipwreck. Asking for God's help in obtaining food and shelter. Thanking God for one's food and shelter. Praying for loved ones back home. Being compassionate toward other living creatures on the land and in the sea around him. This list could also go on.

These are all works, and they won't go unnoticed by God. Nor will they go unpunished, or unrewarded, as the case may be. Even someone who is paralyzed, and cannot walk, or talk, or even move, can engage in good or evil works, via his thoughts and attitudes.

I think all Christians agree with that. Good works are good and bad works are bad. Heck...just about everyone on the planet agrees with that. You're just saying a whole lot of nothing.

The point at hand here isn’t what is or isn’t a good work. That can be a pretty complicated issue in and of itself. The point at hand here is what exactly causes a man to be redeemed vs. a man who isn’t redeemed. And there is only one answer to that, and THAT is the work that Jesus Christ completed…and NOT your own.

Christ is who made it possible to believe in the first place (this Faith that has the fruit of good works that everyone is rambling on in circles about). The second you start believing that you merit Salvation because of your own goodness you miss the mark and actually fall away from Grace. Having Faith in Christ is exactly what it states, “IN CHRIST”…in what He did, because of WHO He is…..not what you did or will do or WHO you are.

It is only when a person has THIS kind of Faith that is put COMPLETELY in Christ…that the good works that are actually from Christ will be seen. The only good works that are really good works are the ones that are the Holy Spirit working through the person.

Gilbert1908 · Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 5147 Location: Boston, MA

John wrote: MJB wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: A person could be marooned alone on a desert island for the rest of their life and have Faith. How would you exhibit works in a situation like that? You can't, ergo, it's a superficial point. It doesn't hold up to examination, as my example of being marooned alone yet having faith plainly shows.

Plainly shows? Do you think works are only those things other people see us do? What do you think works are? Are they not actions? Are they not thoughts and deeds? The person marooned alone on a desert island is every bit as capable of exhibiting works, be they good, or evil, as anyone anywhere else on the planet.

Example of some evil works a marooned man might engage in: Cursing God for being marooned. Killing and/or abusing wildlife out of boredom and anger. Entertaining inappropriate fantasies (take your pick). The list could go on.

Example of some good works a marooned man could engage in: Prayer! (Lots of it!) Thanking God for preserving his life through the storm and shipwreck. Asking for God's help in obtaining food and shelter. Thanking God for one's food and shelter. Praying for loved ones back home. Being compassionate toward other living creatures on the land and in the sea around him. This list could also go on.

These are all works, and they won't go unnoticed by God. Nor will they go unpunished, or unrewarded, as the case may be. Even someone who is paralyzed, and cannot walk, or talk, or even move, can engage in good or evil works, via his thoughts and attitudes.

I think all Christians agree with that. Good works are good and bad works are bad. Heck...just about everyone on the planet agrees with that. You're just saying a whole lot of nothing.

The point at hand here isn’t what is or isn’t a good work. That can be a pretty complicated issue in and of itself. The point at hand here is what exactly causes a man to be redeemed vs. a man who isn’t redeemed. And there is only one answer to that, and THAT is the work that Jesus Christ completed…and NOT your own.

Christ is who made it possible to believe in the first place (this Faith that has the fruit of good works that everyone is rambling on in circles about). The second you start believing that you merit Salvation because of your own goodness you miss the mark and actually fall away from Grace. Having Faith in Christ is exactly what it states, “IN CHRIST”…in what He did, because of WHO He is…..not what you did or will do or WHO you are.

It is only when a person has THIS kind of Faith that is put COMPLETELY in Christ…that the good works that are actually from Christ will be seen. The only good works that are really good works are the ones that are the Holy Spirit working through the person.

Agreed, this is a basic belief shared by virtually ALL Christian denominations.

Good works REPRESENT God's Goodness, they are a RESULTING gift to the redeemed, NOT a requirement of the Redeemer.

greeneye · Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 12:57 pm Post subject:

cap'n queasy wrote: and neither works or faith can remove sin. God's grace is the only power that can accomplish that.

Why do Christians believe this?

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 22954

greeneye wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: and neither works or faith can remove sin. God's grace is the only power that can accomplish that.

Why do Christians believe this?

Because it's true.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 22954

And because God is outside of time....so that means He forever sees your sin in the instant that you commited it. Unless there is a way to cover it. Hmmm...I wonder if such a way has been provided.

eynon · Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 3:56 pm Post subject:

John wrote: greeneye wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: and neither works or faith can remove sin. God's grace is the only power that can accomplish that.

Why do Christians believe this?

Because it's true.

yeah pretty much :)

MJB · Joined: 14 Apr 2006 Posts: 594

I'm not the one missing the point here.

Christian theology teaches us that Christ IS the only way to salvation. There is no other name or means under heaven whereby salvation comes. If man could work his way to heaven, he wouldn't need to be saved. If man could save himself by works, he wouldn't need a Savior.

It is Jesus who says, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." Christ IS the only way. He does for us, what we cannot do for ourselves. We are, indeed, completely dependent upon Jesus Christ, alone, for our salvation. However, this does not mean nothing is required of us.

Accepting Jesus Christ is more than having a passive belief that he is our Savior. When we accept Christ, we accept his teachings, we follow them, doing as he taught, keeping the commandments of God, being obedient to him, and submitting our will to his. Having faith in Christ, is more than giving lip service to his name.

What is not clear?

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him" (Hebrews 5:9)

We must be obedient.

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him" (1 John 1:4)

We must keep the commandments.

We must DO.

Quote: James 1:16-27

16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:
20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.
21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man’s religion is vain.
27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

greeneye wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: and neither works or faith can remove sin. God's grace is the only power that can accomplish that.

Why do Christians believe this?

Look at the reasoning behind not believing this. It's logic is based on focusing our attention on ourself, rather than where the focus should be, on YHWH.

It is self absorption that leads to the idea that we can somehow redeem ourselves for our debt for sin. With that attitude there is no need for God anymore because the person has "become" God essentially. This attitude that many folks have adopted is probably the most dangerous and antichrist threat to face the human race ever. Also the oldest trick in the book, as this was exactly the lie the serpent tricked Adam and Eve into believing. That if they ate from the tree they would be like God, able to decide for themselves what is good and evil, in effect judging themselves.

It's an attempt to remove God from the equation and substitute Him with something else, quite simply.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Quote: We must DO.

Christ already did it for us. We must believe.
Quote: John 3:16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Don't take the focus off of Christ's work.

Whitefields

Nathyn wrote: This a discussion regarding the necessity of works for salvation. I don't believe in Christianity, but having quite a bit of knowledge about the Bible, I can still discuss it from a theological standpoint. And I believe that, according the New Testament, works are essential. It is not that salvation can be achieved solely by works, but rather, the absence of good deeds is evidence of a lack of faith. And, of course, if one has no faith, there's obviously no salvation.

Probably the most common passage cited by modern Christians is John 3:16

Quote: For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
The passage, without any further context, suggests that Christ's salvation is unconditional -- that we can be evil people and Christ still forgives us. From a sociological standpoint, this could help spread the religion because people naturally would like to be able to have an excuse for what they perceive as unethical behavior. Having this idea of "unconditional salvation," allows them to eliminate guilt they feel about whatever immoral acts they commit. From a secular standpoint, I consider this doctrine evil, because it encourages evil. Now, being that I reject Christianity, I don't believe "sin," and "evil," to be synonymous. But much of Christian morality, that is, much of sin, such as murder and theft, is evil, in my mind. To promote apathy about such acts, to promote the idea that you can commit such acts and face no consequences for your actions is to remove the inherent fear in mankind that establishes morality to begin with. And I find this televangelist, born-again Protestant mentality of, "Just believe in Jesus and be automatically saved!" sickening.

But even more importantly, this belief isn't even supported by the Bible. Despite the John 3:16 quote, there is a critical passage, further down in John 3, which is unfortunately not quoted as often.

John 3:19-21

Quote: This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.
This passage very clearly states that faith and works go hand-in-hand.

Now, to explain my point, I'll invoke a philosophical argument: I'll assume that the Christian God exists, that Jesus was actually crucified for our sins, and that all of Christian doctrine is true. Well, if this holds true, then Jesus' presence as the holy spirit is everywhere and God, the one who judges us after death, sees everything. If I recognize this as true, then how could I commit any immoral acts?

For example, let's say you're a bank-robber. When would you rob a bank? Well, for one thing, you wouldn't do it when your family members or close friends are around, because you'd be ashamed. In fact, you'd probably even wear a mask or maybe attempt to rob the bank at night.

Similarly, if you actually believe in God, all of the time, and care what he thinks about your actions, all of the time, then it is impossible for you to commit any immoral acts. So, every act of sin is, within that single moment, an act of Atheism. If you believed that God was watching, you wouldn't do it. Immorality is the act of temporarily suspending belief in God or God's power, so that sinful acts become justifiable.

In Matthew 5, the standard for and necessity of works is laid out:

Quote: When Jesus saw the crowds, He went up on the mountain; and after He sat down, His disciples came to Him. He opened His mouth and began to teach them, saying, "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted. Blessed are the gentle, for they shall inherit the earth. Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied. Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy. Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God. Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men. You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden; nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

You have heard that the ancients were told, `YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER' and `Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.' But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, `You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, `You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell. Therefore if you are presenting your offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your offering there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering. Make friends quickly with your opponent at law while you are with him on the way, so that your opponent may not hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. Truly I say to you, you will not come out of there until you have paid up the last cent.

You have heard that it was said, `YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY'; but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell. It was said, `WHOEVER SENDS HIS WIFE AWAY, LET HIM GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE'; but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

Again, you have heard that the ancients were told, `YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FALSE VOWS, BUT SHALL FULFILL YOUR VOWS TO THE LORD.' But I say to you, make no oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, or by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet, or by Jerusalem, for it is THE CITY OF THE GREAT KING. Nor shall you make an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. But let your statement be, `Yes, yes' or `No, no'; anything beyond these is of evil.

You have heard that it was said, `AN EYE FOR AN EYE, AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.' But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also. Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two. Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.

You have heard that it was said, `YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."
Obviously, if it were solely belief in Christ that saved us, Christ would never have emphasized adherence to moral law. And if there is no BENEFIT from adhering to moral law, but we are saved by faith, then why aren't Christians everywhere, just getting drunk, high, and sodomizing one another? As long as you believe in Jesus, it's okay, right?

No, Matthew 5 shows that Christ's death did not allow for salvation through works (that was the past covenant with the Jews), but nor is it salvation solely through faith in Christ. The standard for works is that we must be more righteous than the Pharisees to go to heaven. That isn't a particularly high standard, because the Pharisees, as clarified in the Bible, were very sinful. When he says, "you are to be perfect," he doesn't mean it literally (that would contradict the standard regarding Pharisees), but 'perfect,' in the sense of being a utopian society. Christ also suggests that salvation isn't equal: those Christians who sin less receive a more substantial reward in heaven.

In Galatians 3, Paul of Tarsus writes to the Galatians, who apparently believe that they can be saved solely through works. He writes, in detail, over why faith through works is unjustified. But before finishing his letter, he adds in Galatians 3:19-29

Quote: Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made. Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one. Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
Again, he doesn't clarify that the law is useless, but says that it is our tutor to lead us to faith. In saying, "you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus," he's essentially saying, "You are all perfectly moral through faith," not this estoric and frankly pagan idea that Christ's blood somehow magically washes over all of us, enabling us to sin without consequence.

This point is most poignantly established in James 2:14-24

Quote: What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works." You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

I believe that we need to have faith in Jesus Christ, humble ourselves and repent of our sins, be baptized for the remission of sins by water and receive the Holy Ghost, keep the commandments, have charity, the pure love of Christ and endure to the end.

MJB · Joined: 14 Apr 2006 Posts: 594

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: We must DO.

Christ already did it for us. We must believe.

Is it not clear enough?

But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

Quote: Quote: John 3:16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Don't take the focus off of Christ's work.

It keeps our focus squarely on Christ as we, in faith and humility, submit ourselves in obedience to him.

Quote: John 14: 15
15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 15: 10
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Quote: It keeps our focus squarely on Christ as we, in faith and humility, submit ourselves in obedience to him.

You are saying to obey Christ, but then asking folks to disobey Him by exalting their own works over the work of Christ. You believe in the power of your work, not in Christ. Obviously, this is not what Y'shua taught.

Quote: John 6:28 Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?" 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

People asked Y'shua "how do we do the work of God, and Y'shua's answer was simple and direct. Believe in who He sent.

The work of God is to believe, nothing else. When you really believe in Christ, instead of a pseudo-Christian interpretation of doctrine you will understand this.

Quote: Is it not clear enough?

But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
No, not the way you present it. That says doers of the word, not doers of work. The Word, who is Christ, tells us that the work of God is to believe in Him, who God sent. John 6:28-29.

Hearing the truth about the work Christ did on our behalf, disbelieving it and substituting your own work for that of Y'shua HaMashiach is self-delusion, I'm sorry to inform you. .

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Did the thief that died with Y'shua spend his life doing "good works"?

Not according to him. He had this to say about his deeds "And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds;" Luke 23:40.

He deserved to suffer because of all the things he had done, according to his own testimony.

Yet this is what Y'shua said to him: "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise." Luke 23:43

How could this be if "good works" are necessary for salvation? The answer is simple to understand, it is because this criminal did in fact do the one thing Y'shua identified as the work of God in his final moments, he believed in Y'shua. All the bad things he had done mattered not a whit. He joined Y'shua in Paradise that day simply because when He heard who Y'shua was he believed it.

Nathyn · Joined: 25 Sep 2005 Posts: 7681 Location: The Great Satan

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: Example of some evil works a marooned man might engage in: Cursing God for being marooned. Killing and/or abusing wildlife out of boredom and anger. Entertaining inappropriate fantasies (take your pick). The list could go on.

Example of some good works a marooned man could engage in: Prayer! (Lots of it!) Thanking God for preserving his life through the storm and shipwreck. Asking for God's help in obtaining food and shelter. Thanking God for one's food and shelter. Praying for loved ones back home. Being compassionate toward other living creatures on the land and in the sea around him. This list could also go on.

These are all works, and they won't go unnoticed by God. Nor will they go unpunished, or unrewarded, as the case may be. Even someone who is paralyzed, and cannot walk, or talk, or even move, can engage in good or evil works, via his thoughts and attitudes.

You are totally missing the point. The "faith vs works" controversy deals only with whether salvation is freely given by God's grace, or earned by some type of work on our part. Obviously any Christian is going to pray and be thankful for food when stuck in a terrible situation, like being marooned on an island. But it is not warranted to expect brownie points for being thankful for your food or whatever. And this is what I have maintained all along.

These works do not create the condition of salvation and that is my point. God's grace alone can do that. You cannot "earn" your way into deserving salvation, simply because you don't have the proper "currency" to pay the way. The only legal tender that can pay the price is removal of sin, and neither works or faith can remove sin. God's grace is the only power that can accomplish that. Of course, God has promised us we can receive this unmerited favor by believing, but that does not mean it is your faith that brings salvation. Only that God was graceful enough to grant us this opportunity to be saved if we repent and accept Him as our Savior and Lord.

We know Y'shua told us the the work of God is to believe, and we know that to believe in Christ is to accept the great commission to go out to every nation and people and spread the good news about Moshiach. Therefore it follows that if you profess faith, but do nothing to evangelize then your faith is dead. Quite simply evangelism is the work Y'shua told us is the work of God. You are going to do more to give people real help if you tell them about the good news, than if you simply give them some money. Give a man a loaf of bread and he eats that day, but tell him about the Bread of Life and he can eat forever.

Nathyn's accusation that the majority of modern Christians are promiscuous, smoke crack, and then go home to beat their kids and then pop over to the church to be forgiven, quite frankly, ridiculous. The thing that is so screwy about this opinion is that if that one of those very same Christians tried to tell him God does not want people to be promiscuous or to smoke crack he would to view that as an attack on his freedom.

Yet he is not mad at a Christian that says promiscuity is not bad, or that smoking crack is not bad. He is mad at the one who tells him these things are bad and ironically accuses them of indulging in this behavior to justify this attitude. This is hypocritical in the extreme. He simply does not equate someone trying to help people see that sin is going to hurt them as a good work. He looks at it as an annoyance. He cares not a whit about sin, and does not even think it exists, yet without basis he makes generalized accusations of sinfulness about people he has a grudge against.
God's grace removes the price for sin -- it's totally our choice whether to sin or not.

You choose to believe in Jesus, but then sin anyway, because you think true faith involves just acknowledging Christ's existence and not letting it actually impact your daily choices.

It's pretty clear from James 2 that faith implies works, that "faith without works is dead."

What does that passage mean to you?