Political Crossfire Forums

[Nathyn]

This a discussion regarding the necessity of works for salvation. I don't believe in Christianity, but having quite a bit of knowledge about the Bible, I can still discuss it from a theological standpoint. And I believe that, according the New Testament, works are essential. It is not that salvation can be achieved solely by works, but rather, the absence of good deeds is evidence of a lack of faith. And, of course, if one has no faith, there's obviously no salvation.

Probably the most common passage cited by modern Christians is John 3:16

Quote: For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
The passage, without any further context, suggests that Christ's salvation is unconditional -- that we can be evil people and Christ still forgives us. From a sociological standpoint, this could help spread the religion because people naturally would like to be able to have an excuse for what they perceive as unethical behavior. Having this idea of "unconditional salvation," allows them to eliminate guilt they feel about whatever immoral acts they commit. From a secular standpoint, I consider this doctrine evil, because it encourages evil. Now, being that I reject Christianity, I don't believe "sin," and "evil," to be synonymous. But much of Christian morality, that is, much of sin, such as murder and theft, is evil, in my mind. To promote apathy about such acts, to promote the idea that you can commit such acts and face no consequences for your actions is to remove the inherent fear in mankind that establishes morality to begin with. And I find this televangelist, born-again Protestant mentality of, "Just believe in Jesus and be automatically saved!" sickening.

But even more importantly, this belief isn't even supported by the Bible. Despite the John 3:16 quote, there is a critical passage, further down in John 3, which is unfortunately not quoted as often.

John 3:19-21

Quote: This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.
This passage very clearly states that faith and works go hand-in-hand.

Now, to explain my point, I'll invoke a philosophical argument: I'll assume that the Christian God exists, that Jesus was actually crucified for our sins, and that all of Christian doctrine is true. Well, if this holds true, then Jesus' presence as the holy spirit is everywhere and God, the one who judges us after death, sees everything. If I recognize this as true, then how could I commit any immoral acts?

For example, let's say you're a bank-robber. When would you rob a bank? Well, for one thing, you wouldn't do it when your family members or close friends are around, because you'd be ashamed. In fact, you'd probably even wear a mask or maybe attempt to rob the bank at night.

Similarly, if you actually believe in God, all of the time, and care what he thinks about your actions, all of the time, then it is impossible for you to commit any immoral acts. So, every act of sin is, within that single moment, an act of Atheism. If you believed that God was watching, you wouldn't do it. Immorality is the act of temporarily suspending belief in God or God's power, so that sinful acts become justifiable.

In Matthew 5, the standard for and necessity of works is laid out:

Quote: When Jesus saw the crowds, He went up on the mountain; and after He sat down, His disciples came to Him. He opened His mouth and began to teach them, saying, "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted. Blessed are the gentle, for they shall inherit the earth. Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied. Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy. Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God. Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men. You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden; nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

You have heard that the ancients were told, `YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER' and `Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.' But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, `You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, `You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell. Therefore if you are presenting your offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your offering there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering. Make friends quickly with your opponent at law while you are with him on the way, so that your opponent may not hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. Truly I say to you, you will not come out of there until you have paid up the last cent.

You have heard that it was said, `YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY'; but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell. It was said, `WHOEVER SENDS HIS WIFE AWAY, LET HIM GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE'; but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

Again, you have heard that the ancients were told, `YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FALSE VOWS, BUT SHALL FULFILL YOUR VOWS TO THE LORD.' But I say to you, make no oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, or by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet, or by Jerusalem, for it is THE CITY OF THE GREAT KING. Nor shall you make an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. But let your statement be, `Yes, yes' or `No, no'; anything beyond these is of evil.

You have heard that it was said, `AN EYE FOR AN EYE, AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.' But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also. Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two. Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.

You have heard that it was said, `YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."
Obviously, if it were solely belief in Christ that saved us, Christ would never have emphasized adherence to moral law. And if there is no BENEFIT from adhering to moral law, but we are saved by faith, then why aren't Christians everywhere, just getting drunk, high, and sodomizing one another? As long as you believe in Jesus, it's okay, right?

No, Matthew 5 shows that Christ's death did not allow for salvation through works (that was the past covenant with the Jews), but nor is it salvation solely through faith in Christ. The standard for works is that we must be more righteous than the Pharisees to go to heaven. That isn't a particularly high standard, because the Pharisees, as clarified in the Bible, were very sinful. When he says, "you are to be perfect," he doesn't mean it literally (that would contradict the standard regarding Pharisees), but 'perfect,' in the sense of being a utopian society. Christ also suggests that salvation isn't equal: those Christians who sin less receive a more substantial reward in heaven.

In Galatians 3, Paul of Tarsus writes to the Galatians, who apparently believe that they can be saved solely through works. He writes, in detail, over why faith through works is unjustified. But before finishing his letter, he adds in Galatians 3:19-29

Quote: Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made. Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one. Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
Again, he doesn't clarify that the law is useless, but says that it is our tutor to lead us to faith. In saying, "you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus," he's essentially saying, "You are all perfectly moral through faith," not this estoric and frankly pagan idea that Christ's blood somehow magically washes over all of us, enabling us to sin without consequence.

This point is most poignantly established in James 2:14-24

Quote: What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works." You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[MJB]

Indeed. The gospel of Jesus Christ is a gospel of faith and works. Not faith v. works.

When one has faith in Christ, he endeavors to follow him, obey his teachings, and keep his commandments. When one stumbles, he repents, forsakes his sins, straightens his course, and begins anew. Such is the way of life for those who truly believe. If we say we have faith, but do not do as Jesus taught, we are void of the faith we profess.

Passive belief is not faith, and does not bring men to Christ. We come to Christ when we believe in him, have faith in his power to save, and act on that faith be being obedient to him.

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him" (Hebrews 5:9)

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him" (1 John 1:4)

[eynon]

tell me about your faith, I'll show you mine.........good works stem from a Christians' love for and desire to serve God. But the book is pretty clear about them not being the key to salvation.

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: Romans 4:1-8 -
1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: 7 "BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED. 8 "BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT."

Quote: Ephesians 2:4-10 -
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

What did Y'shua say God's work is?
Quote: John 6:28 Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?" 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

All religion (from the Latin religo, to bind or fasten) which binds people to works as their key to salvation is the doctrine of the Nicolaitans. They do the work of man not God, building religious hierarchies to rule man. Christ came to free us, and have a relationship with us, not to create another failed religion, such as that of the Pharisees, that based salvation on the works of man, and which caused Israel to stumble. We are justified solely through our Faith in the Promise of God, Moshiach. Faith without works may be dead, but the work of God is to believe. And such work without Faith is a contradiction in terms. No good can come of it, as history clearly shows.

Here are two quite revealing (no pun intended :-D ) passages.
Quote: Revelation 2:5 'Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place--unless you repent. 6 'Yet this you do have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. The deeds the early believers did was share the Good News.

Quote: Revelation 2:515 'So you also have some who in the same way hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans. 16 'Therefore repent; or else I am coming to you quickly, and I will make war against them with the sword of My mouth. The sword of Christ's mouth is His word, the Good News.

Nicolaitan is a Greek word that means to conquer, or rule (Nicao) the people (Laos,), just like the Pharisees ruled the people of Israel, remember Y'shua called them vipers because of this thinking. A large part of the last 2000 years was spent by hierarchical religionists killing laymen that read the Bible, so that they would be easily ruled by the Church hierarchy, who used their power to commit all manner of iniquity.

Obviously, something crucial was lost. What value is to be found in such work? Is this something that can be boasted of when we stand in front of YHWH on Judgment day? Shu'al told us we are justified by Faith alone, and not works, so that no man can boast. Better advice can not be found.

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: Quote:
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
quote:
The passage, without any further context, suggests that Christ's salvation is unconditional -- that we can be evil people and Christ still forgives us.

That's because it is being taken out of context. The foundation of Faith is repentence of sin, and acceptance of Christ as our Master. Without these there is no salvation, regardless of the good works you think you might be doing.

Obviously not everyone is automatically forgiven, no matter what they do. A reading of any book of the Bible plainly shows that, in fact, that is what most non-Christians love most to point out about the scriptures.

One of YHWH's attributes is Love, but another that is every bit as important is Justice. And important part of true Justice and true Love is an opportunity for redemption, which is exactly what Christ offers us.

[Gilbert1908]

I'm afraid you can't even count on us Catholics on this one. While it is no doubt true that we emphasize service and charity as the highest form of praising God, it is also true that since ALL good things eminate from God it is then impossible to "credit" good will or charitable acts to an individual person and then by such acts can that person gain his salvation. It is simply contrary to basic Christian theology.


From the Catechism of the Catholic Church

604 By giving up his own Son for our sins, God manifests that his plan for us is one of benevolent love, prior to any merit on our part: "In this is love, not that we loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the expiation for our sins."408 God "shows his love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us."409

605 At the end of the parable of the lost sheep Jesus recalled that God's love excludes no one: "So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish."410 He affirms that he came "to give his life as a ransom for many"; this last term is not restrictive, but contrasts the whole of humanity with the unique person of the redeemer who hands himself over to save us.411 The Church, following the apostles, teaches that Christ died for all men without exception: "There is not, never has been, and never will be a single human being for whom Christ did not suffer."412

[perdidochas]

MJB wrote: Indeed. The gospel of Jesus Christ is a gospel of faith and works. Not faith v. works.

Well, I would go beyond that and say that faith requires works, and for works to be in God's name, they require faith.

As James says, faith without works is dead.

[Nathyn]

eynon wrote: tell me about your faith, I'll show you mine.........good works stem from a Christians' love for and desire to serve God. But the book is pretty clear about them not being the key to salvation.
Did you read the post above at all?

If you don't have works, you don't have faith.

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: Romans 4:1-8 -
1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: 7 "BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED. 8 "BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT."
Commentary on Romans 4, from Jamieson, Fausset, Brown

Quote: Romish expositors and Arminian Protestants make this to mean that God accepted Abraham's act of believing as a substitute for complete obedience. But this is at variance with the whole spirit and letter of the apostle's teaching. Throughout this whole argument, faith is set in direct opposition to works, in the matter of justification--and even in Romans 4:4,5. The meaning, therefore, cannot possibly be that the mere act of believing--which is as much a work as any other piece of commanded duty (John 6:29, 1 John 3:23)--was counted to Abraham for all obedience. The meaning plainly is that Abraham believed in the promises which embraced Christ (Genesis 12:3, 15:5, &c.), as we believe in Christ Himself; and in both cases, faith is merely the instrument that puts us in possession of the blessing gratuitously bestowed.
Christ argues in Matthew 17:20, that faith allows us to do anything we want. That, with faith, we will "move mountains." If you believe that your faith is substantial, but do nothing good, you have no faith.

With regards to doctrine, this is further clarified by the classic doctrine in Matthew 7:15-20

Quote: Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits.
If a person is sinful, we know that they have no faith. And if a doctrine promotes sin, we know that doctrine is wrong. Your doctrine of "sin all you want -- Christ always forgives," promotes sin and is at odds with scripture.

In Acts 8, when Simon offers the Apostles money to receive the Holy Spirit, Peter responds:

Acts 8:20-22
Quote: But Peter said to him, "May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money! You have no part or portion in this matter, for your heart is not right before God. Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and pray the Lord that, if possible, the intention of your heart may be forgiven you.
And I could site a plethora of Biblical scriptures where it mentions the critical importance of repentance to salvation.

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: Ephesians 2:4-10 -
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
So that no one can boast, not that there were no works involved.

There are many parts of scriptures which say we are saved solely by faith -- if you take these scriptures, in and of themselves, yes, they imply your doctrine. But if you take the scriptures I've mentioned, you can only rationalize the contradiction by agreeing that faith implies works.

cap'n queasy wrote: What did Y'shua say God's work is?
Quote: John 6:28 Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?" 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."
That, again, doesn't imply that faith doesn't always create works. Faith is the work of God. He answered that way, because he's trying to stress that there are no specific acts you can do to gain the acceptance of God, not to dispute the fact that the faithful always have works.

cap'n queasy wrote: All religion (from the Latin religo, to bind or fasten) which binds people to works as their key to salvation is the doctrine of the Nicolaitans. They do the work of man not God, building religious hierarchies to rule man. Christ came to free us, and have a relationship with us, not to create another failed religion, such as that of the Pharisees, that based salvation on the works of man, and which caused Israel to stumble. We are justified solely through our Faith in the Promise of God, Moshiach. Faith without works may be dead, but the work of God is to believe. And such work without Faith is a contradiction in terms. No good can come of it, as history clearly shows.
"Faith," is supposed to be unbinding, not because it allows us to sin, but because it allows us to repent and be virtuous. I'm not arguing for salvation through works and you're putting forth a straw man, here. I'm arguing for salvation through faith, but that faith always creates works and if there are no works, there is no faith.

cap'n queasy wrote: Here are two quite revealing (no pun intended :-D ) passages.
Quote: Revelation 2:5 'Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place--unless you repent. 6 'Yet this you do have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. The deeds the early believers did was share the Good News.

Quote: Revelation 2:515 'So you also have some who in the same way hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans. 16 'Therefore repent; or else I am coming to you quickly, and I will make war against them with the sword of My mouth. The sword of Christ's mouth is His word, the Good News.

Nicolaitan is a Greek word that means to conquer, or rule (Nicao) the people (Laos,), just like the Pharisees ruled the people of Israel, remember Y'shua called them vipers because of this thinking. A large part of the last 2000 years was spent by hierarchical religionists killing laymen that read the Bible, so that they would be easily ruled by the Church hierarchy, who used their power to commit all manner of iniquity.

Obviously, something crucial was lost. What value is to be found in such work? Is this something that can be boasted of when we stand in front of YHWH on Judgment day? Shu'al told us we are justified by Faith alone, and not works, so that no man can boast. Better advice can not be found.
According to Wikipedia, you've got it backwards. The Nicolaitans uphold your doctrine, not my view:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolaitans

Quote: The Nicolaitanes or Nicolaitans are a group of people mentioned twice in the book of Revelation in the New Testament. The church at Ephesus (Rev. 2:6) is commended for hating the "deeds" of the Nicolaitanes, and the church of Pergamos is blamed for having them who hold their "doctrines" (15). They were seemingly a class of professing Christians, who sought to introduce into the church a false freedom or licentiousness, thus abusing Paul's doctrine of grace (comp. 2 Pet. 2:15, 16, 19) or engaging in antinomianism, and were probably identical with those who held the "doctrine of Baalam" mentioned in Rev. 2:14.
This is identical to the modern doctrine, that you can just hop over to the church of Sundays and be "saved," then go back to be a promiscuous, crack-addicted, abusive mother during the other 6 days of the week.

Gilbert1908 wrote: I'm afraid you can't even count on us Catholics on this one. While it is no doubt true that we emphasize service and charity as the highest form of praising God, it is also true that since ALL good things eminate from God it is then impossible to "credit" good will or charitable acts to an individual person and then by such acts can that person gain his salvation. It is simply contrary to basic Christian theology.


From the Catechism of the Catholic Church

604 By giving up his own Son for our sins, God manifests that his plan for us is one of benevolent love, prior to any merit on our part: "In this is love, not that we loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the expiation for our sins."408 God "shows his love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us."409

605 At the end of the parable of the lost sheep Jesus recalled that God's love excludes no one: "So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish."410 He affirms that he came "to give his life as a ransom for many"; this last term is not restrictive, but contrasts the whole of humanity with the unique person of the redeemer who hands himself over to save us.411 The Church, following the apostles, teaches that Christ died for all men without exception: "There is not, never has been, and never will be a single human being for whom Christ did not suffer."412
I never made that claim!

perdidochas wrote: MJB wrote: Indeed. The gospel of Jesus Christ is a gospel of faith and works. Not faith v. works.

Well, I would go beyond that and say that faith requires works, and for works to be in God's name, they require faith.

As James says, faith without works is dead.
THAT is what I said.

I'm glad someone understood what I was saying. Perhaps you're the only one that read the original post.

[MJB]

perdidochas wrote: MJB wrote: Indeed. The gospel of Jesus Christ is a gospel of faith and works. Not faith v. works.

Well, I would go beyond that and say that faith requires works, and for works to be in God's name, they require faith.

As James says, faith without works is dead.

Yes, it is.

Which reminds me - in a slightly different vein regarding faith and works, recently, while commenting elsewhere on the topic of going through difficult trials in life, I had said:

Quote: I've thought before, that it's like hanging from the edge of a cliff at night, over a deep and dark abyss, not knowing if we'll be able to pull ourselves up, and not knowing how much longer we'll be able to hang on, when, in reality, if we could see in the light of day, we'd find a massive net suspended to catch us, that was just beyond view. All that worry and frustration for naught. With a little more faith, how much easier things would be.

But then, as I was musing, I added:

Quote: But on the other hand - if we could always see the net below, how often might we tend to just let go with the least difficulty, and make no effort of our own? I guess that's why he keeps the net just out of sight.

That was one of those little illuminating moments when I gained a deeper understanding of faith and works and their synergy.

[MJB]

Nathyn wrote: perdidochas wrote: MJB wrote: Indeed. The gospel of Jesus Christ is a gospel of faith and works. Not faith v. works.

Well, I would go beyond that and say that faith requires works, and for works to be in God's name, they require faith.

As James says, faith without works is dead.
THAT is what I said.

I'm glad someone understood what I was saying. Perhaps you're the only one that read the original post.

Hey - I read it fella. :P

[Nathyn]

MJB wrote: Nathyn wrote: perdidochas wrote: MJB wrote: Indeed. The gospel of Jesus Christ is a gospel of faith and works. Not faith v. works.

Well, I would go beyond that and say that faith requires works, and for works to be in God's name, they require faith.

As James says, faith without works is dead.
THAT is what I said.

I'm glad someone understood what I was saying. Perhaps you're the only one that read the original post.

Hey - I read it fella. :P
Yeah, you too.

[perdidochas]

Nathyn wrote:
perdidochas wrote: MJB wrote: Indeed. The gospel of Jesus Christ is a gospel of faith and works. Not faith v. works.

Well, I would go beyond that and say that faith requires works, and for works to be in God's name, they require faith.

As James says, faith without works is dead.
THAT is what I said.

I'm glad someone understood what I was saying. Perhaps you're the only one that read the original post.

Well, I think several of us did, we just expressed it differently.

[eynon]

Nathyn wrote: eynon wrote: tell me about your faith, I'll show you mine.........good works stem from a Christians' love for and desire to serve God. But the book is pretty clear about them not being the key to salvation.
Did you read the post above at all?

If you don't have works, you don't have faith.

no need to be snide :lol:

I read you're post, bit long winded for as it says in James "faith without works is dead"........nuff said.

[eynon]

oh, I see perdidochas already thouched on that point.....:)

[mojo]

perdidochas wrote: MJB wrote: Indeed. The gospel of Jesus Christ is a gospel of faith and works. Not faith v. works.

Well, I would go beyond that and say that faith requires works, and for works to be in God's name, they require faith.

As James says, faith without works is dead.

Can't disagree with that.

Faith in Christ is the ultimate means to salvation though. Works are just an expression of that faith.

[eynon]

mojo wrote: perdidochas wrote: MJB wrote: Indeed. The gospel of Jesus Christ is a gospel of faith and works. Not faith v. works.

Well, I would go beyond that and say that faith requires works, and for works to be in God's name, they require faith.

As James says, faith without works is dead.

Can't disagree with that.

Faith in Christ is the ultimate means to salvation though. Works are just an expression of that faith.

well put :)

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: If a person is sinful, we know that they have no faith.
Quote: Mt 9:13 -
"But go and learn what this means: 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
There is no one who is not sinful.

Quote: Quote:
The Nicolaitanes or Nicolaitans are a group of people mentioned twice in the book of Revelation in the New Testament. The church at Ephesus (Rev. 2:6) is commended for hating the "deeds" of the Nicolaitanes, and the church of Pergamos is blamed for having them who hold their "doctrines" (15). They were seemingly a class of professing Christians, who sought to introduce into the church a false freedom or licentiousness, thus abusing Paul's doctrine of grace (comp. 2 Pet. 2:15, 16, 19) or engaging in antinomianism, and were probably identical with those who held the "doctrine of Baalam" mentioned in Rev. 2:14.
Consider this, is it easier for someone to sexually abuse someone who they have power over, or someone they know who is equal to them in God's eyes? There is a very good reason why today's Nicolaitans (hierarchical religionists such as the Pharisees were) are infamous for abusing children sexually, and other iniquities. Their doctrine is skewed. They think their works justify their actions. They think they can do whatever they want to do, because they aren't sinners. This is where the danger lies, not in simple, childlike Faith. Simply look at the history of the Church and you will see a wretched record of abuse of power. Satan does his best work from a pulpit.
Quote:
This is identical to the modern doctrine, that you can just hop over to the church of Sundays and be "saved," then go back to be a promiscuous, crack-addicted, abusive mother during the other 6 days of the week.

And which modern doctrine is this? I know of no one who thinks this. It is a gross misrepresentation.

Let me point out something to you about what Y'shua said about people who think they are better than others, because they thought their works and position in the community rendered them into a person without sin, and therefore better than the downtrodden and sick.
Quote: Matthew 11:16-24 -
16 "But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places, who call out to the other children, 17 and say, 'We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not mourn.' 18 "For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon!' 19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds." 20 Then He began to denounce the cities in which most of His miracles were done, because they did not repent. 21 "Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had occurred in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 "Nevertheless I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. 23 "And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will descend to Hades; for if the miracles had occurred in Sodom which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day. 24 "Nevertheless I say to you that it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for you."

I know you think picking on a type of person you perceive as someone anyone can hate in our society gives you some type of moral high ground, but that is the exact type of action that led Y'shua to brand those who thought they were sinless and justified because of their works a "brood of vipers". Whitewashed tombs on the outside, but corrupt and and rotten on the inside.

Someone who sins and repents and asks forgiveness is who will receive salvation, when those who think they have done all manner of charitable works and that this makes them a good person who doesn't need to repent will be subject to a rude awakening one day.

It is ridiculous for you to crow about how no one understands what you are saying, when what you are saying is simple minded and shows you are spiritually dead.

[John]

Quote: If a person is sinful, we know that they have no faith. And if a doctrine promotes sin, we know that doctrine is wrong. Your doctrine of "sin all you want -- Christ always forgives," promotes sin and is at odds with scripture.

What are you talking about?

Who ever said "sin all you want"?

Nathyn, don't you understand that the only real way to start the process to cease sinning is to have your eyes opened to what it really is and in effect start to hate sin?

Saving Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ opens the spiritual eyes and causes the person to see things for what they really are. The last thing it causes is a desire to "sin all you want".

When your eyes are opened...you see that YOU are a sinner and that YOU are causing the pain that Christ had to endure...that is was because of YOU (in the NOW/PRESENT). The result of really seeing this for what it is, is the desire to NOT sin. You should react with a need to stop causing the One who loves you so much pain.

[Nathyn]

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: If a person is sinful, we know that they have no faith.
Quote: Mt 9:13 -
"But go and learn what this means: 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
There is no one who is not sinful.
So? Faith is the only requirement, but some level of works are required. As James says, even Satan and his demons believe in Jesus. And the Pharisees believed in God, too. But what separates those two groups from Christians is their deeds.

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: Quote:
The Nicolaitanes or Nicolaitans are a group of people mentioned twice in the book of Revelation in the New Testament. The church at Ephesus (Rev. 2:6) is commended for hating the "deeds" of the Nicolaitanes, and the church of Pergamos is blamed for having them who hold their "doctrines" (15). They were seemingly a class of professing Christians, who sought to introduce into the church a false freedom or licentiousness, thus abusing Paul's doctrine of grace (comp. 2 Pet. 2:15, 16, 19) or engaging in antinomianism, and were probably identical with those who held the "doctrine of Baalam" mentioned in Rev. 2:14.
Consider this, is it easier for someone to sexually abuse someone who they have power over, or someone they know who is equal to them in God's eyes? There is a very good reason why today's Nicolaitans (hierarchical religionists such as the Pharisees were) are infamous for abusing children sexually, and other iniquities. Their doctrine is skewed. They think their works justify their actions. They think they can do whatever they want to do, because they aren't sinners. This is where the danger lies, not in simple, childlike Faith. Simply look at the history of the Church and you will see a wretched record of abuse of power. Satan does his best work from a pulpit.
Hold on, hold on, are you attacking Catholicism, now? Granted, I think Catholicism has quite a few flaws, most of all papal infallibility, but they are no worse than Protestantism and certainly not "today's Nicolaitians."

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: This is identical to the modern doctrine, that you can just hop over to the church of Sundays and be "saved," then go back to be a promiscuous, crack-addicted, abusive mother during the other 6 days of the week.
And which modern doctrine is this? I know of no one who thinks this. It is a gross misrepresentation.

Let me point out something to you about what Y'shua said about people who think they are better than others, because they thought their works and position in the community rendered them into a person without sin, and therefore better than the downtrodden and sick.
Quote: Matthew 11:16-24 -
16 "But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places, who call out to the other children, 17 and say, 'We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not mourn.' 18 "For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon!' 19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds." 20 Then He began to denounce the cities in which most of His miracles were done, because they did not repent. 21 "Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had occurred in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 "Nevertheless I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. 23 "And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will descend to Hades; for if the miracles had occurred in Sodom which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day. 24 "Nevertheless I say to you that it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for you."

I know you think picking on a type of person you perceive as someone anyone can hate in our society gives you some type of moral high ground, but that is the exact type of action that led Y'shua to brand those who thought they were sinless and justified because of their works a "brood of vipers". Whitewashed tombs on the outside, but corrupt and and rotten on the inside.
It seems like you're arguing for that type of modern doctrine now.

cap'n queasy wrote: Someone who sins and repents and asks forgiveness is who will receive salvation, when those who think they have done all manner of charitable works and that this makes them a good person who doesn't need to repent will be subject to a rude awakening one day.
That wasn't what I said at all.

John wrote: Quote: If a person is sinful, we know that they have no faith. And if a doctrine promotes sin, we know that doctrine is wrong. Your doctrine of "sin all you want -- Christ always forgives," promotes sin and is at odds with scripture.

What are you talking about?

Who ever said "sin all you want"?

Nathyn, don't you understand that the only real way to start the process to cease sinning is to have your eyes opened to what it really is and in effect start to hate sin?

Saving Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ opens the spiritual eyes and causes the person to see things for what they really are. The last thing it causes is a desire to "sin all you want".

When your eyes are opened...you see that YOU are a sinner and that YOU are causing the pain that Christ had to endure...that is was because of YOU (in the NOW/PRESENT). The result of really seeing this for what it is, is the desire to NOT sin. You should react with a need to stop causing the One who loves you so much pain.
That's sort of the point I made: If you actually believe that there is a God and the spirit of the Messiah, watching everywhere, and they judge us for all of our actions, then obviously, no one would sin. Hence, sinful behavior is evidence of lack of faith.

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: but some level of works are required.
Not required at all, simply a measure for you to judge the true extent of your personal commitment. All works, even good ones, don't improve your spiritual state. they are an effect in your life of improvement in your spiritual state. You could do good works 24/7 and it could really help a lot of folks and it would never propitiate your sins. Your sins have happened and cannot be erased, justice must be served for any sin you carry.

This is the point of Christianity, that you must be redeemed from the righteous price that must be exacted to pay for the evil your sins have caused, and the price of redemption is paid by the blood of Christ. His work is the only work that has ever brought men salvation.

Another crucial point I think is being missed is that what James had to say on the matter is from the perspective of self analysis, not as a way to judge other people as sinners. Judging a person as a sinner is as simple as pointing at any person around you. All are sinners, and it is this sin that must be removed.

Here's what I think is a pretty good illustration of the concept I am trying to convey:

Look at the New Testament and consider which figure contained within do you think is probably the most righteous guy, after Y'shua? John the Baptist, likely. What was the character of his works? He sat around all day in the wilderness dunking people in water and proclaiming some old prophecy. He wasn't feeding the poor, heck, he had to eat grasshoppers himself. Does this mean he didn't meet the requirements of salvation, because he didn't work enough to try to alleviate social ills? Were his works counted as less righteousness? Not by a longshot.

And, in the Old Testament, I would say Abraham was counted as an extremely righteous man, but what he is known for is agreeing to kill his son for God, trading his wife for his own safety, several military actions that were basically slaughters, and haggling with God. Would you say he constantly tried to address social issues thereby building his spiritual advancement until he wasn't sinner anymore? Or would you say that he lived his life in a righteous way despite the difficulty he encountered?

According to Y'shua, Abraham was counted as righteous because he believed in the Almighty I AM, he had faith in a God who delights in making and keeping His promises. This faith in YHWH was justified by YHWH's sending of Moshiach, as our Paschal lamb, to be sacrificed to pay the price owed for sin in our stead. Sin is an inevitable consequence of material existence and must be dealt with somehow. God is Holy and one's sin's must be removed to exist in His presence.

Both of these men were counted righteous by the New Testament account because of their faith, not their works in addressing social issues. They believed in God's promises implicitly, even if they couldn't possibly imagine how they would be finally fulfilled thousands of years in the future. To the modern paradigm this sounds like foolishness, but the fact is the majority of God's promises have come to pass and we are nearing the time when the last few will be realized.

These two personages fed men's souls with the Bread of Life, manna from heaven, in their ministries. They did not make it their business to put earthly bread in men's bellies, other than in a capacity of personal hospitality to a few individuals. Are their works counted as less because of this? In my opinion they are not.

This is not to say that policies that address social ills aren't a good thing, they definitely help people and good people want to help others, but I do not think it is a good idea to tie them to any particular religious viewpoint when instituted as political policy, or as function of government such as law. And I do not think that any type of proposal along those lines can be portrayed as an accurate representation of what Y'shua's teachings were meant to convey.

Anyway, just some things to consider.