Political Crossfire Forums

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: but many Jews till view us Christians with suspicion and hostility.

It's understandable IMHO.

[eynon]

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: but many Jews till view us Christians with suspicion and hostility.

It's understandable IMHO.

amen to that.........but as I've said before, the group greatest persecuted by Christians is...........other Christians.

[cap'n queasy]

eynon wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: but many Jews till view us Christians with suspicion and hostility.

It's understandable IMHO.

amen to that.........but as I've said before, the group greatest persecuted by Christians is...........other Christians.

For the same reason, I would add to that.

[Pareve]

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: It's really the Hebrew words and their connotation that I find offensive when used in the concept of Jesus, because in my experience the only people who use that are Jews for Jesus and people who are actively trying to convert Jews.

The point is not conversion, but believers in YHWH's promises and covenants believe that scriptures like Yirmiyahu 31:27-34 have been completed. They like to show that what is concealed within the Tanahk is revealed in B'rit Hadashah.

Don't take my word for it, examine the scripture and judge for yourself.

But of, course if you don't really want to learn about what Christianity is really all about it would be a waste of effort.

Here's some videos you could watch, if so inclined to kind of get an idea what one believer (me) thinks about God's plan.
http://www.levitt.tv/media/links/ZLV-669.ram
http://www.levitt.tv/media/links/ZLV-1617.ram
http://www.levitt.tv/media/links/ZLV-1618.ram

The first one is an interview with an American/Israeli Torah scholar and scientist (He's Jewish, but no one is trying to convert him :lol: ) with an interesting viewpoint of the scriptures with a view to science.

And the next two are an interview of a Jewish scripture expert who is neither a believer in the B'rit Hadashah or a Rabbinical Jew. He belongs to a group called the Karaites, and, boy, does he have an interesting perspective that you don't run into every day. He will definitely make anyone think about what they believe

I think the commonality that believers of Rabbinical Judaism, New Covenant believers, and Karaites all share is that they all seek the face of YHWH in their daily walk through life.

Anyway, I hope that is helpful and interesting to you. If not, I apologize.

Now would be a good time to point out that I don't think Karaites are real Jews. There's a HUGE rift that goes back for generations between mainstream Judaism and Karaites. That, and they are a really tiny minority anyway. I've never even met a Karaite. I think they only live in Israel, but I could be wrong. Looking to the Karaites for a "Jewish" opinion is a dead end.

I read scripture often. I have a different point of view than you do. Can we please leave it at that? What part of "Nothing you say could change my mind about the Messiah because none of the prophesies have been fulfilled yet in my opinion, like flaming chariots and whatnot, but if you want to disagree that's fine and your opinion" don't you understand?

[Pareve]

eynon wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: It's really the Hebrew words and their connotation that I find offensive when used in the concept of Jesus, because in my experience the only people who use that are Jews for Jesus and people who are actively trying to convert Jews.

The point is not conversion, but believers in YHWH's promises and covenants believe that scriptures like Yirmiyahu 31:27-34 have been completed. They like to show that what is concealed within the Tanahk is revealed in B'rit Hadashah.

Don't take my word for it, examine the scripture and judge for yourself.

But of, course if you don't really want to learn about what Christianity is really all about it would be a waste of effort.

Here's some videos you could watch, if so inclined to kind of get an idea what one believer (me) thinks about God's plan.
http://www.levitt.tv/media/links/ZLV-669.ram
http://www.levitt.tv/media/links/ZLV-1617.ram
http://www.levitt.tv/media/links/ZLV-1618.ram

The first one is an interview with an American believer with an interesting viewpoint of the scriptures.

And the next two are an interview of a Jewish scripture expert who is neither a believer in the B'rit Hadashah or a Rabbinical Jew. He belongs to a group called the Karaites, and, boy, does he have an interesting perspective that you don't run into every day. He will definitely make anyone think about what they believe

I think the commonality that believers of Rabbinical Judaism, New Covenant believers, and Karaites all share is that they all seek the face of YHWH in their walk through life.

Anyway, I hope that is helpful and interesting to you. If not, I apologize.

sadly through the bloody acts of many of our ancestors Cap'n the demons have put a barrier between us and our Jewish siblings. :(


remember:

sadly the blood of millions of Russian, American, British, and Canadian Christains did not erase that stain..........

It has to do with what I believe, not what other people did to my grandparents.

[Pareve]

eynon wrote:
yet despite that, there is still that wall.........although my best friend on earth in Jewish, but many Jews till view us Christians with suspicion and hostility.
I have nothing against Christians. I wouldn't get very far in this society if I did. I merely don't want to be one, because it is not my tradition. I have my tradition, and you have yours. I don't see why that is a problem. Of course, that is a Jewish opinion. We don't prosthelytize.

Quote: course........I've had jews tell me "my people suffered in the holocaust", to which I only smile and reply "my people died stopping it"..........yes I say that out of pride, but it does get people thinking.
You have no idea how rude that response was, apparently. I don't know what context someone would tell you that they suffered in the Holocaust would be. I mean, it's not like most people just drop that on the street. "Hi, my name is David, and my family died in the Holocaust! I'm Jewish, nice to meet you!" Riiight. Generally, the proper response is, "oh, that's awful" or something sympathetic, not something self-righteous and smug.

[eynon]

Pareve wrote: eynon wrote:
yet despite that, there is still that wall.........although my best friend on earth in Jewish, but many Jews till view us Christians with suspicion and hostility.
I have nothing against Christians. I wouldn't get very far in this society if I did. I merely don't want to be one, because it is not my tradition. I have my tradition, and you have yours. I don't see why that is a problem. Of course, that is a Jewish opinion. We don't prosthelytize.

Quote: course........I've had jews tell me "my people suffered in the holocaust", to which I only smile and reply "my people died stopping it"..........yes I say that out of pride, but it does get people thinking.
You have no idea how rude that response was, apparently. I don't know what context someone would tell you that they suffered in the Holocaust would be. I mean, it's not like most people just drop that on the street. "Hi, my name is David, and my family died in the Holocaust! I'm Jewish, nice to meet you!" Riiight. Generally, the proper response is, "oh, that's awful" or something sympathetic, not something self-righteous and smug.

that right you don't know the context :wink:

but if it's any clue the 2 other jews at the table laughed their asses off.........


besides, how is that smug?.....my grandfather did liberated one of the camps...Bergen-Belsen to be exact.

[OnlyAmbrose]

xsuite wrote: mojo wrote: eynon wrote: OnlyAmbrose wrote: The Comrade wrote: Pareve wrote: So... I'm Jewish, and we don't really have a concept of heaven and hell, per se. I'm curious on what Christians in this board think about who goes to heaven. Do you believe that only people who believe in Jesus Christ go to heaven, or that good people who aren't Christians get to go too?


the catholic church proclaims anyone that is a good human being will go to heaven. and even before this, middle ages for example, there were "the righteous souls of purgatory". basically people who weren't catholic, but were good people over all, went to purgatory rather then hell. one very famous example of this is Saladin.

Sort of. The Catholic Church teaches that to get to heaven you must posess within you the grace of Jesus Christ. You lose the grace of Jesus by committing mortal sin, which is essentially a REALLY bad sin, i.e. murder, rape, masturbation, use of birth control, etc etc. A mortal sin must fulfill the following conditions:

-It is a grave matter
-The sinner is fully aware that what he/she is doing will shatter his relationship with God
-The sinner deliberately commits it

The grace of Christ, however, is given freely, and if the sinner is truly sorry and asks for God's forgiveness his grace will be restored. If said sinner has no remorse for the hurt he has given God and never makes any attempt to repair his relationship, then he has lost his grace, and cannot enter heaven.

In the end, however, only God can say. We can't pass judgement on who has damned themselves.

Hope this helps

-Ambrose

wanking is a motal sin? :lol:

no its venial :-D
Yeha, there is no way its a mortal sin, if so, heaven has way to many women (not that thats a bad thing) but 99.2% of men would be damned.
Also neither are gays damned. YOU HEARD ME!!!! GAY IS NOT A SIN. it was but is no longer. like shrimp, or wearing polyblend clothes, or pork, or getting piercings or tattoos.

Sorry to burst your bubbles guys... masturbation is indeed a mortal sin. Check out the Catechism's passage on the topic:

2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action."[137] "The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose." For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved."[138]

To form an equitable judgment about the subjects' moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety, or other psychological or social factors that lessen or even extenuate moral culpability.

The second paragraph is what qualifies it as a mortal sin- or rather, that it CAN qualify as a mortal sin, provided the above conditions do not exist. Suffice to say that it is a very grave sin.

"Spilling of the seed" is mentioned in Genesis, in the case of Onan. He was killed for doing so by God. Of course, many people use this to condemn contraception as well, because he "spilled his seed" so that a woman he was about to have sex with would not conceive (this the term "Onanism").

In any event, all of the articles on the topic I have read are quite firm in the belief that masturbation is indeed a grave matter and may qualify as a mortal sin.

[eynon]

OnlyAmbrose wrote: xsuite wrote: mojo wrote: eynon wrote: OnlyAmbrose wrote: The Comrade wrote: Pareve wrote: So... I'm Jewish, and we don't really have a concept of heaven and hell, per se. I'm curious on what Christians in this board think about who goes to heaven. Do you believe that only people who believe in Jesus Christ go to heaven, or that good people who aren't Christians get to go too?


the catholic church proclaims anyone that is a good human being will go to heaven. and even before this, middle ages for example, there were "the righteous souls of purgatory". basically people who weren't catholic, but were good people over all, went to purgatory rather then hell. one very famous example of this is Saladin.

Sort of. The Catholic Church teaches that to get to heaven you must posess within you the grace of Jesus Christ. You lose the grace of Jesus by committing mortal sin, which is essentially a REALLY bad sin, i.e. murder, rape, masturbation, use of birth control, etc etc. A mortal sin must fulfill the following conditions:

-It is a grave matter
-The sinner is fully aware that what he/she is doing will shatter his relationship with God
-The sinner deliberately commits it

The grace of Christ, however, is given freely, and if the sinner is truly sorry and asks for God's forgiveness his grace will be restored. If said sinner has no remorse for the hurt he has given God and never makes any attempt to repair his relationship, then he has lost his grace, and cannot enter heaven.

In the end, however, only God can say. We can't pass judgement on who has damned themselves.

Hope this helps

-Ambrose

wanking is a motal sin? :lol:

no its venial :-D
Yeha, there is no way its a mortal sin, if so, heaven has way to many women (not that thats a bad thing) but 99.2% of men would be damned.
Also neither are gays damned. YOU HEARD ME!!!! GAY IS NOT A SIN. it was but is no longer. like shrimp, or wearing polyblend clothes, or pork, or getting piercings or tattoos.

Sorry to burst your bubbles guys... masturbation is indeed a mortal sin. Check out the Catechism's passage on the topic:

2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action."[137] "The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose." For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved."[138]

To form an equitable judgment about the subjects' moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety, or other psychological or social factors that lessen or even extenuate moral culpability.

The second paragraph is what qualifies it as a mortal sin- or rather, that it CAN qualify as a mortal sin, provided the above conditions do not exist. Suffice to say that it is a very grave sin.

"Spilling of the seed" is mentioned in Genesis, in the case of Onan. He was killed for doing so by God. Of course, many people use this to condemn contraception as well, because he "spilled his seed" so that a woman he was about to have sex with would not conceive (this the term "Onanism").

In any event, all of the articles on the topic I have read are quite firm in the belief that masturbation is indeed a grave matter and may qualify as a mortal sin.


so what about wet-dreams? :lol:

look none of that is backed up by scripture.......Onan wasn't wanking, he was rebelling against God specific instructions.....Leviticus mentions it as no big deal and it's not in the NT.

Plus IMHO the Catechism has no spritual authority in and of itself......thanks for the opinion, but it's just that, and opinion.


now that I think about it the term "mortal sin" doesn't even show up in scriptures(John, Capn correct me if I'm wrong :) )

[Angelicus]

eynon wrote: OnlyAmbrose wrote: xsuite wrote: mojo wrote: eynon wrote: OnlyAmbrose wrote: The Comrade wrote: Pareve wrote: So... I'm Jewish, and we don't really have a concept of heaven and hell, per se. I'm curious on what Christians in this board think about who goes to heaven. Do you believe that only people who believe in Jesus Christ go to heaven, or that good people who aren't Christians get to go too?


the catholic church proclaims anyone that is a good human being will go to heaven. and even before this, middle ages for example, there were "the righteous souls of purgatory". basically people who weren't catholic, but were good people over all, went to purgatory rather then hell. one very famous example of this is Saladin.

Sort of. The Catholic Church teaches that to get to heaven you must posess within you the grace of Jesus Christ. You lose the grace of Jesus by committing mortal sin, which is essentially a REALLY bad sin, i.e. murder, rape, masturbation, use of birth control, etc etc. A mortal sin must fulfill the following conditions:

-It is a grave matter
-The sinner is fully aware that what he/she is doing will shatter his relationship with God
-The sinner deliberately commits it

The grace of Christ, however, is given freely, and if the sinner is truly sorry and asks for God's forgiveness his grace will be restored. If said sinner has no remorse for the hurt he has given God and never makes any attempt to repair his relationship, then he has lost his grace, and cannot enter heaven.

In the end, however, only God can say. We can't pass judgement on who has damned themselves.

Hope this helps

-Ambrose

wanking is a motal sin? :lol:

no its venial :-D
Yeha, there is no way its a mortal sin, if so, heaven has way to many women (not that thats a bad thing) but 99.2% of men would be damned.
Also neither are gays damned. YOU HEARD ME!!!! GAY IS NOT A SIN. it was but is no longer. like shrimp, or wearing polyblend clothes, or pork, or getting piercings or tattoos.

Sorry to burst your bubbles guys... masturbation is indeed a mortal sin. Check out the Catechism's passage on the topic:

2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action."[137] "The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose." For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved."[138]

To form an equitable judgment about the subjects' moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety, or other psychological or social factors that lessen or even extenuate moral culpability.

The second paragraph is what qualifies it as a mortal sin- or rather, that it CAN qualify as a mortal sin, provided the above conditions do not exist. Suffice to say that it is a very grave sin.

"Spilling of the seed" is mentioned in Genesis, in the case of Onan. He was killed for doing so by God. Of course, many people use this to condemn contraception as well, because he "spilled his seed" so that a woman he was about to have sex with would not conceive (this the term "Onanism").

In any event, all of the articles on the topic I have read are quite firm in the belief that masturbation is indeed a grave matter and may qualify as a mortal sin.


so what about wet-dreams? :lol:

look none of that is backed up by scripture.......Onan wasn't wanking, he was rebelling against God specific instructions.....Leviticus mentions it as no big deal and it's not in the NT.

Plus IMHO the Catechism has no spritual authority in and of itself......thanks for the opinion, but it's just that, and opinion.


now that I think about it the term "mortal sin" doesn't even show up in scriptures(John, Capn correct me if I'm wrong :) )

Why would there be? Is all sin not "mortal sin"?

I mean isn't the penalty for all sin, death?

[eynon]

Angelicus wrote: eynon wrote: OnlyAmbrose wrote: xsuite wrote: mojo wrote: eynon wrote: OnlyAmbrose wrote: The Comrade wrote: Pareve wrote: So... I'm Jewish, and we don't really have a concept of heaven and hell, per se. I'm curious on what Christians in this board think about who goes to heaven. Do you believe that only people who believe in Jesus Christ go to heaven, or that good people who aren't Christians get to go too?


the catholic church proclaims anyone that is a good human being will go to heaven. and even before this, middle ages for example, there were "the righteous souls of purgatory". basically people who weren't catholic, but were good people over all, went to purgatory rather then hell. one very famous example of this is Saladin.

Sort of. The Catholic Church teaches that to get to heaven you must posess within you the grace of Jesus Christ. You lose the grace of Jesus by committing mortal sin, which is essentially a REALLY bad sin, i.e. murder, rape, masturbation, use of birth control, etc etc. A mortal sin must fulfill the following conditions:

-It is a grave matter
-The sinner is fully aware that what he/she is doing will shatter his relationship with God
-The sinner deliberately commits it

The grace of Christ, however, is given freely, and if the sinner is truly sorry and asks for God's forgiveness his grace will be restored. If said sinner has no remorse for the hurt he has given God and never makes any attempt to repair his relationship, then he has lost his grace, and cannot enter heaven.

In the end, however, only God can say. We can't pass judgement on who has damned themselves.

Hope this helps

-Ambrose

wanking is a motal sin? :lol:

no its venial :-D
Yeha, there is no way its a mortal sin, if so, heaven has way to many women (not that thats a bad thing) but 99.2% of men would be damned.
Also neither are gays damned. YOU HEARD ME!!!! GAY IS NOT A SIN. it was but is no longer. like shrimp, or wearing polyblend clothes, or pork, or getting piercings or tattoos.

Sorry to burst your bubbles guys... masturbation is indeed a mortal sin. Check out the Catechism's passage on the topic:

2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action."[137] "The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose." For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved."[138]

To form an equitable judgment about the subjects' moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety, or other psychological or social factors that lessen or even extenuate moral culpability.

The second paragraph is what qualifies it as a mortal sin- or rather, that it CAN qualify as a mortal sin, provided the above conditions do not exist. Suffice to say that it is a very grave sin.

"Spilling of the seed" is mentioned in Genesis, in the case of Onan. He was killed for doing so by God. Of course, many people use this to condemn contraception as well, because he "spilled his seed" so that a woman he was about to have sex with would not conceive (this the term "Onanism").

In any event, all of the articles on the topic I have read are quite firm in the belief that masturbation is indeed a grave matter and may qualify as a mortal sin.


so what about wet-dreams? :lol:

look none of that is backed up by scripture.......Onan wasn't wanking, he was rebelling against God specific instructions.....Leviticus mentions it as no big deal and it's not in the NT.

Plus IMHO the Catechism has no spritual authority in and of itself......thanks for the opinion, but it's just that, and opinion.


now that I think about it the term "mortal sin" doesn't even show up in scriptures(John, Capn correct me if I'm wrong :) )

Why would there be? Is all sin not "mortal sin"?

I mean isn't the penalty for all sin, death?

it does say that..........and we do all buy the farm eventually.

[cap'n queasy]

Pareve wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: It's really the Hebrew words and their connotation that I find offensive when used in the concept of Jesus, because in my experience the only people who use that are Jews for Jesus and people who are actively trying to convert Jews.

The point is not conversion, but believers in YHWH's promises and covenants believe that scriptures like Yirmiyahu 31:27-34 have been completed. They like to show that what is concealed within the Tanahk is revealed in B'rit Hadashah.

Don't take my word for it, examine the scripture and judge for yourself.

But of, course if you don't really want to learn about what Christianity is really all about it would be a waste of effort.

Here's some videos you could watch, if so inclined to kind of get an idea what one believer (me) thinks about God's plan.
http://www.levitt.tv/media/links/ZLV-669.ram
http://www.levitt.tv/media/links/ZLV-1617.ram
http://www.levitt.tv/media/links/ZLV-1618.ram

The first one is an interview with an American/Israeli Torah scholar and scientist (He's Jewish, but no one is trying to convert him :lol: ) with an interesting viewpoint of the scriptures with a view to science.

And the next two are an interview of a Jewish scripture expert who is neither a believer in the B'rit Hadashah or a Rabbinical Jew. He belongs to a group called the Karaites, and, boy, does he have an interesting perspective that you don't run into every day. He will definitely make anyone think about what they believe

I think the commonality that believers of Rabbinical Judaism, New Covenant believers, and Karaites all share is that they all seek the face of YHWH in their daily walk through life.

Anyway, I hope that is helpful and interesting to you. If not, I apologize.

Now would be a good time to point out that I don't think Karaites are real Jews. There's a HUGE rift that goes back for generations between mainstream Judaism and Karaites. That, and they are a really tiny minority anyway. I've never even met a Karaite. I think they only live in Israel, but I could be wrong. Looking to the Karaites for a "Jewish" opinion is a dead end.

I read scripture often. I have a different point of view than you do. Can we please leave it at that? What part of "Nothing you say could change my mind about the Messiah because none of the prophesies have been fulfilled yet in my opinion, like flaming chariots and whatnot, but if you want to disagree that's fine and your opinion" don't you understand?

I hate to break it you but there are many sects of Judaism, just as in any religion. You happen to adhere to one that looks at their religious commentary as their guiding principle.

The Karaites look to scripture alone.

Many run of the mill rabbinical Jews are not very familiar with scripture at all, as your "flaming chariot" comment belies. Read the book of Esther, and then take a look at the rabbinical commentary on it. The contrast is amazingly disparate. They read things into the story that are way off base. It's very difficult to see where the rabbinical commentary has anything to do with the point of the scripture account at all.

And yes, I understand you. You don't want to bother to look and see.

[John]

Quote: now that I think about it the term "mortal sin" doesn't even show up in scriptures(John, Capn correct me if I'm wrong

No...you're right. All sin is considered mortal in the scriptures. That's why it had to be dealt with.

[OnlyAmbrose]

eynon wrote: OnlyAmbrose wrote: xsuite wrote: mojo wrote: eynon wrote: OnlyAmbrose wrote: The Comrade wrote: Pareve wrote: So... I'm Jewish, and we don't really have a concept of heaven and hell, per se. I'm curious on what Christians in this board think about who goes to heaven. Do you believe that only people who believe in Jesus Christ go to heaven, or that good people who aren't Christians get to go too?


the catholic church proclaims anyone that is a good human being will go to heaven. and even before this, middle ages for example, there were "the righteous souls of purgatory". basically people who weren't catholic, but were good people over all, went to purgatory rather then hell. one very famous example of this is Saladin.

Sort of. The Catholic Church teaches that to get to heaven you must posess within you the grace of Jesus Christ. You lose the grace of Jesus by committing mortal sin, which is essentially a REALLY bad sin, i.e. murder, rape, masturbation, use of birth control, etc etc. A mortal sin must fulfill the following conditions:

-It is a grave matter
-The sinner is fully aware that what he/she is doing will shatter his relationship with God
-The sinner deliberately commits it

The grace of Christ, however, is given freely, and if the sinner is truly sorry and asks for God's forgiveness his grace will be restored. If said sinner has no remorse for the hurt he has given God and never makes any attempt to repair his relationship, then he has lost his grace, and cannot enter heaven.

In the end, however, only God can say. We can't pass judgement on who has damned themselves.

Hope this helps

-Ambrose

wanking is a motal sin? :lol:

no its venial :-D
Yeha, there is no way its a mortal sin, if so, heaven has way to many women (not that thats a bad thing) but 99.2% of men would be damned.
Also neither are gays damned. YOU HEARD ME!!!! GAY IS NOT A SIN. it was but is no longer. like shrimp, or wearing polyblend clothes, or pork, or getting piercings or tattoos.

Sorry to burst your bubbles guys... masturbation is indeed a mortal sin. Check out the Catechism's passage on the topic:

2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action."[137] "The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose." For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved."[138]

To form an equitable judgment about the subjects' moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety, or other psychological or social factors that lessen or even extenuate moral culpability.

The second paragraph is what qualifies it as a mortal sin- or rather, that it CAN qualify as a mortal sin, provided the above conditions do not exist. Suffice to say that it is a very grave sin.

"Spilling of the seed" is mentioned in Genesis, in the case of Onan. He was killed for doing so by God. Of course, many people use this to condemn contraception as well, because he "spilled his seed" so that a woman he was about to have sex with would not conceive (this the term "Onanism").

In any event, all of the articles on the topic I have read are quite firm in the belief that masturbation is indeed a grave matter and may qualify as a mortal sin.


so what about wet-dreams? :lol:

look none of that is backed up by scripture.......Onan wasn't wanking, he was rebelling against God specific instructions.....Leviticus mentions it as no big deal and it's not in the NT.

Plus IMHO the Catechism has no spritual authority in and of itself......thanks for the opinion, but it's just that, and opinion.


now that I think about it the term "mortal sin" doesn't even show up in scriptures(John, Capn correct me if I'm wrong :) )

I'm not sure if you're Catholic, but if you are then the Catechism is basically the authority of the Church, whose power it is to interpret the Bible. That's like saying that the Courts have no legal authority in America.

If you're not Catholic, you'll probably still find most protestant ministers condemning it as a grave sin... simply not using the same terms (so far as I know Protestants don't use the term "mortal sin".)

[John]

Quote: I'm not sure if you're Catholic, but if you are then the Catechism is basically the authority of the Church, whose power it is to interpret the Bible. That's like saying that the Courts have no legal authority in America.

If you're not Catholic, you'll probably still find most protestant ministers condemning it as a grave sin... simply not using the same terms (so far as I know Protestants don't use the term "mortal sin".)

One thing that Protestants do seem to not talk about as much is the fact that the Bible does speak of a Judgment seat of Christ that believers will be judged before....And I'm sure that some sins will weigh heavier than others. Granted...no one is condemned to Hell at the Judgment seat of Christ, but there will be accountability none the less.

Although I doubt highly that masturbation will weigh as heavy as not having compassion for people in need.

[eynon]

John wrote: Quote: I'm not sure if you're Catholic, but if you are then the Catechism is basically the authority of the Church, whose power it is to interpret the Bible. That's like saying that the Courts have no legal authority in America.

If you're not Catholic, you'll probably still find most protestant ministers condemning it as a grave sin... simply not using the same terms (so far as I know Protestants don't use the term "mortal sin".)

One thing that Protestants do seem to not talk about as much is the fact that the Bible does speak of a Judgment seat of Christ that believers will be judged before....And I'm sure that some sins will weigh heavier than others. Granted...no one is condemned to Hell at the Judgment seat of Christ, but there will be accountability none the less.

Although I doubt highly that masturbation will weigh as heavy as not having compassion for people in need.

well put.........I've never, ever heard it come up among Protestants......we have better stuff to fight about :wink:

[John]

eynon wrote: John wrote: Quote: I'm not sure if you're Catholic, but if you are then the Catechism is basically the authority of the Church, whose power it is to interpret the Bible. That's like saying that the Courts have no legal authority in America.

If you're not Catholic, you'll probably still find most protestant ministers condemning it as a grave sin... simply not using the same terms (so far as I know Protestants don't use the term "mortal sin".)

One thing that Protestants do seem to not talk about as much is the fact that the Bible does speak of a Judgment seat of Christ that believers will be judged before....And I'm sure that some sins will weigh heavier than others. Granted...no one is condemned to Hell at the Judgment seat of Christ, but there will be accountability none the less.

Although I doubt highly that masturbation will weigh as heavy as not having compassion for people in need.

well put.........I've never, ever heard it come up among Protestants......we have better stuff to fight about :wink:

Masturbation or the Judgement Seat of Christ?

[eynon]

John wrote: eynon wrote: John wrote: Quote: I'm not sure if you're Catholic, but if you are then the Catechism is basically the authority of the Church, whose power it is to interpret the Bible. That's like saying that the Courts have no legal authority in America.

If you're not Catholic, you'll probably still find most protestant ministers condemning it as a grave sin... simply not using the same terms (so far as I know Protestants don't use the term "mortal sin".)

One thing that Protestants do seem to not talk about as much is the fact that the Bible does speak of a Judgment seat of Christ that believers will be judged before....And I'm sure that some sins will weigh heavier than others. Granted...no one is condemned to Hell at the Judgment seat of Christ, but there will be accountability none the less.

Although I doubt highly that masturbation will weigh as heavy as not having compassion for people in need.

well put.........I've never, ever heard it come up among Protestants......we have better stuff to fight about :wink:

Masturbation or the Judgement Seat of Christ?

neither actually....... :lol:

[cap'n queasy]

You've never heard of the Bema seat?

It's a pretty interesting study. The concept comes from the judging of athletic performance.

Shu'al used sports allegories to illustrate concepts quite a few times.

[Angelicus]

cap'n queasy wrote: You've never heard of the Bema seat?



Capn many of my fellow protestants that I know aren't.

They have no clue that there is a judgement for the believer as well.

I think this is in part because today, in alot of church's the pastor will avoid teaching from the prophetical books like the plaque, lest they "offend someone".

Seriously, they don't want too preach on anything other than John 3:16 and Gods love.

Thats it. Everything else might "offend" someone. And thats not just my "opinion", thats what I am told by several pastors that I know.