Political Crossfire Forums

mojo · Joined: 08 Sep 2005 Posts: 5487 Location: Dreamland, NC

I just got done reading "Casti Connubii". It is an apolistic letter from Pope Pius XI. He cites some interesting points. But before I go on to support my views on contraception, I would first like to make clear that I do not support any government policy to restrict contraception. I just wish to point out simpler truths that were illuminated to me through this apolistic letter concerning the society that arises from a culture of contraception. Pope Pius XI emphasizes that Marriage is an institution of God and the products of Marriage (children) are the direct result of gifts from God.

First let me illuminate the context of societies change from a culture of purity to a culture of contraception. Before 1930 nearly every Christian denomination opposed birth control in all its forms from the pill to condums. In 1930 the Anglican Church reversed their original position and decided that contraception could be allowed but "discouraged". Many protestant churches followed with this new theology and adopted it. The Roman Catholic Church standing firm in this new wave thinking spoke out firmly in opposition of this theology.

This is where "Casti Connubii" came into being. It was a decree by Pope Pius XI in opposition to Birth Control. He argued that allowing birth control would eventually lead to further concessions in other areas. He especially emphasized the effect this would have on the issues of abortion, marriage, respect for life, and the destruction of the family.

He prophesizes with ashtonishing detail how the rise of a culture of contraception would create a mentality against life itself. It is important to assert that children are gifts from God and are not burdens carried by parents in denial of their duty. For instance, if a person has the power to reject God's gifts? Should they not then also have the right to reject the life that God has given them?

Pope Pius argued that advocating birth control will increase divorce rates. Divorced rates have increased.
Pope Pius argued that advocating birth control will increase a culture of abortion and death. There have been 40 million abortions in this country alone.
Pope Pius argued that advocating birth control will destroy the family by reducing the value of a child's life. Single family/unwed homes now replace the traditional family structure.

In conclusion, this culture of contraception has created a society that refuses to recognize that a child is a gift from God. It wishes to ignore this fact in favor of its own self interests and self denial. As Christians we should stand in solidarity with one another over this issue. We are called to be beacons of hope in this dark world of sin. It is our duty as Chistians to respect life in all of its forms, and honor the gifts God has given us.

perdidochas · Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 15372 Location: Florida

mojo wrote: I just got done reading "Casti Connubii". It is an apolistic letter from Pope Pius XI. He cites some interesting points. But before I go on to support my views on contraception, I would first like to make clear that I do not support any government policy to restrict contraception. I just wish to point out simpler truths that were illuminated to me through this apolistic letter concerning the society that arises from a culture of contraception. Pope Pius XI emphasizes that Marriage is an institution of God and the products of Marriage (children) are the direct result of gifts from God.

First let me illuminate the context of societies change from a culture of purity to a culture of contraception. Before 1930 nearly every Christian denomination opposed birth control in all its forms from the pill to condums. In 1930 the Anglican Church reversed their original position and decided that contraception could be allowed but "discouraged". Many protestant churches followed with this new theology and adopted it. The Roman Catholic Church standing firm in this new wave thinking spoke out firmly in opposition of this theology.

This is where "Casti Connubii" came into being. It was a decree by Pope Pius XI in opposition to Birth Control. He argued that allowing birth control would eventually lead to further concessions in other areas. He especially emphasized the effect this would have on the issues of abortion, marriage, respect for life, and the destruction of the family.

He prophesizes with ashtonishing detail how the rise of a culture of contraception would create a mentality against life itself. It is important to assert that children are gifts from God and are not burdens carried by parents in denial of their duty. For instance, if a person has the power to reject God's gifts? Should they not then also have the right to reject the life that God has given them?

Pope Pius argued that advocating birth control will increase divorce rates. Divorced rates have increased.
Pope Pius argued that advocating birth control will increase a culture of abortion and death. There have been 40 million abortions in this country alone.
Pope Pius argued that advocating birth control will destroy the family by reducing the value of a child's life. Single family/unwed homes now replace the traditional family structure.

In conclusion, this culture of contraception has created a society that refuses to recognize that a child is a gift from God. It wishes to ignore this fact in favor of its own self interests and self denial. As Christians we should stand in solidarity with one another over this issue. We are called to be beacons of hope in this dark world of sin. It is our duty as Chistians to respect life in all of its forms, and honor the gifts God has given us.

I'm Catholic, but I don't believe the Church is using logical thinking on this one. I don't understand the distinction between "artificial birth control" and "natural family planning" (i.e. the refined version of the rhythm method). The intent is the same--to delay or avoid having children. The difference is in method, not intent, nor result (if NFP advocates are correct, they have about the same success rate as do condoms). IMHO, the church should either "legalize" all non-abortificant birth control, or "illegalize" natural family planning.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Quote: In conclusion, this culture of contraception has created a society that refuses to recognize that a child is a gift from God. It wishes to ignore this fact in favor of its own self interests and self denial. As Christians we should stand in solidarity with one another over this issue. We are called to be beacons of hope in this dark world of sin. It is our duty as Chistians to respect life in all of its forms, and honor the gifts God has given us.

I'm down with that.

eynon · Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:36 pm Post subject:

I humbly disagree. Contraception is simply pragamtic and healthy. More-over how does it make a child any less a gift? If anything it should have the opposite effect; a child is planned for and welcomed into a loving home as opposed to being simply another accident and "burden".

Unwanted Children and abortion are not the result of contraception, but the absence of it.

Gilbert1908 · Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 5146 Location: Boston, MA

perdidochas wrote: mojo wrote: I just got done reading "Casti Connubii". It is an apolistic letter from Pope Pius XI. He cites some interesting points. But before I go on to support my views on contraception, I would first like to make clear that I do not support any government policy to restrict contraception. I just wish to point out simpler truths that were illuminated to me through this apolistic letter concerning the society that arises from a culture of contraception. Pope Pius XI emphasizes that Marriage is an institution of God and the products of Marriage (children) are the direct result of gifts from God.

First let me illuminate the context of societies change from a culture of purity to a culture of contraception. Before 1930 nearly every Christian denomination opposed birth control in all its forms from the pill to condums. In 1930 the Anglican Church reversed their original position and decided that contraception could be allowed but "discouraged". Many protestant churches followed with this new theology and adopted it. The Roman Catholic Church standing firm in this new wave thinking spoke out firmly in opposition of this theology.

This is where "Casti Connubii" came into being. It was a decree by Pope Pius XI in opposition to Birth Control. He argued that allowing birth control would eventually lead to further concessions in other areas. He especially emphasized the effect this would have on the issues of abortion, marriage, respect for life, and the destruction of the family.

He prophesizes with ashtonishing detail how the rise of a culture of contraception would create a mentality against life itself. It is important to assert that children are gifts from God and are not burdens carried by parents in denial of their duty. For instance, if a person has the power to reject God's gifts? Should they not then also have the right to reject the life that God has given them?

Pope Pius argued that advocating birth control will increase divorce rates. Divorced rates have increased.
Pope Pius argued that advocating birth control will increase a culture of abortion and death. There have been 40 million abortions in this country alone.
Pope Pius argued that advocating birth control will destroy the family by reducing the value of a child's life. Single family/unwed homes now replace the traditional family structure.

In conclusion, this culture of contraception has created a society that refuses to recognize that a child is a gift from God. It wishes to ignore this fact in favor of its own self interests and self denial. As Christians we should stand in solidarity with one another over this issue. We are called to be beacons of hope in this dark world of sin. It is our duty as Chistians to respect life in all of its forms, and honor the gifts God has given us.

I'm Catholic, but I don't believe the Church is using logical thinking on this one. I don't understand the distinction between "artificial birth control" and "natural family planning" (i.e. the refined version of the rhythm method). The intent is the same--to delay or avoid having children. The difference is in method, not intent, nor result (if NFP advocates are correct, they have about the same success rate as do condoms). IMHO, the church should either "legalize" all non-abortificant birth control, or "illegalize" natural family planning.

There is no question that you make the perfect arguement here and I fully agree. Sin is about intent not result and the idea that two people who have the identical intent are not equally responsible for the the end result is nonsensical.

The variable however is in the reality of the process. In one case a specific decision is necessary at a very specific time and level the of risk and subsequent result is completely different. Therefore the intent by virtue of the understanding of the necessary decision making and the risk of result becomes an entirely different calculation for ANYONE who actually thinks through the process which of course is the entire point of THE POINT.

But I in no way see your point as without very significant logic or merit.

The issue is NOT the result but the preparation, decision and intent.

ieatfood · Joined: 28 Mar 2005 Posts: 6289

"The culture of contraception" is really just a byproduct of the culture of free sex. given that we live in a culture of free sex, a culture of contraception is a good thing. Now you may argue that the culture of contraception leads to a strenghening of the culture of free sex. You are partially right. But mostly wrong. THe culture of free sex stems from the larger culture of secularism which is inevitable. Human history has shown, as time advances, civilizations become more secular. As a result of secularization, god is no longer taken seriously as an impediment to sex. Without an impediment to sex, people are doing it more often. Given that god is now gone, the only impediment to sex is fear of STDs and unwanted pregnancy. Since contraception and protection both decrease this fear, the impediment to sex is further decreased and sex will increase, thus potentially increasing the number of pregnancies and STDs. However, since use protection/contraception actually works most of the time, the net number of pregnancies/std's will decrease.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 22949

eynon wrote: I humbly disagree. Contraception is simply pragamtic and healthy. More-over how does it make a child any less a gift? If anything it should have the opposite effect; a child is planned for and welcomed into a loving home as opposed to being simply another accident and "burden".

Unwanted Children and abortion are not the result of contraception, but the absence of it.

Agreed. There is a period of time were my wife's body needs to rest from making babies (mentally more than physically). Does that mean we can't have sexual relations? Of course not.

There is a difference between using contraceptives in a responsible manner and using them to promote a sinful lifestyle.

1 Corinthians 10
23 All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable All things are lawful, but not all things edify.

The key for living a Christian life is to just follow the lead that the Holy Spirit puts in your life. There is a time and place for things such as condoms, and if you are walking correctly with the Lord…you’ll know the difference.

dtwizzy2k5 · Joined: 03 Apr 2006 Posts: 467

John wrote: eynon wrote: I humbly disagree. Contraception is simply pragamtic and healthy. More-over how does it make a child any less a gift? If anything it should have the opposite effect; a child is planned for and welcomed into a loving home as opposed to being simply another accident and "burden".

Unwanted Children and abortion are not the result of contraception, but the absence of it.

Agreed. There is a period of time were my wife's body needs to rest from making babies (mentally more than physically). Does that mean we can't have sexual relations? Of course not.

There is a difference between using contraceptives in a responsible manner and using them to promote a sinful lifestyle.

1 Corinthians 10
23 All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable All things are lawful, but not all things edify.

The key for living a Christian life is to just follow the lead that the Holy Spirit puts in your life. There is a time and place for things such as condoms, and if you are walking correctly with the Lord…you’ll know the difference.

Agreed. There's nothing wrong with contraception between two married partners. Unmarried partners, on the other hand, well thats a different story...

Faet · Joined: 04 Oct 2006 Posts: 67 Location: Florida

mojo wrote:
Pope Pius argued that advocating birth control will increase divorce rates. Divorced rates have increased.
Pope Pius argued that advocating birth control will increase a culture of abortion and death. There have been 40 million abortions in this country alone.
Pope Pius argued that advocating birth control will destroy the family by reducing the value of a child's life. Single family/unwed homes now replace the traditional family structure.

I don't think that there is much, if any at all, of a relationship between your points.

For example, the traditional family structure has received damage from various sources, one of which is capitalism. In our time, the amount of families who have both parents working has increased dramatically. This leads to more divorces (another example) and it leads to less parenting time for children.

mojo · Joined: 08 Sep 2005 Posts: 5487 Location: Dreamland, NC

John wrote: eynon wrote: I humbly disagree. Contraception is simply pragamtic and healthy. More-over how does it make a child any less a gift? If anything it should have the opposite effect; a child is planned for and welcomed into a loving home as opposed to being simply another accident and "burden".

Unwanted Children and abortion are not the result of contraception, but the absence of it.

Agreed. There is a period of time were my wife's body needs to rest from making babies (mentally more than physically). Does that mean we can't have sexual relations? Of course not.

There is a difference between using contraceptives in a responsible manner and using them to promote a sinful lifestyle.

1 Corinthians 10
23 All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable All things are lawful, but not all things edify.

The key for living a Christian life is to just follow the lead that the Holy Spirit puts in your life. There is a time and place for things such as condoms, and if you are walking correctly with the Lord…you’ll know the difference.

Why can't you abstain from having sex then? It seems a little more in tune with God's wishes to allow for choice to be a requisite to action than to have unnatural barriers destroying choice. A condom undermines the Christian values of openness to God. Unnatural contraception is closing yourself off to the gifts that God is according to you. If God wills it for you to have children, shouldn't you be receptive to that will.

Protected sex is just a way to enjoy the pleasures associated with sex without experiencing the possible rewards and/or consequences of those decisions.

It invariably leads to wrong characterizations of what sex and relationships are.

mojo · Joined: 08 Sep 2005 Posts: 5487 Location: Dreamland, NC

Faet wrote: mojo wrote:
Pope Pius argued that advocating birth control will increase divorce rates. Divorced rates have increased.
Pope Pius argued that advocating birth control will increase a culture of abortion and death. There have been 40 million abortions in this country alone.
Pope Pius argued that advocating birth control will destroy the family by reducing the value of a child's life. Single family/unwed homes now replace the traditional family structure.

I don't think that there is much, if any at all, of a relationship between your points.

For example, the traditional family structure has received damage from various sources, one of which is capitalism. In our time, the amount of families who have both parents working has increased dramatically. This leads to more divorces (another example) and it leads to less parenting time for children.

I agree other sources have contributed to the destruction of the family (not capitalism though). I truly believe that this theological turn around was the first step towards a society that does not honor what sex is. It allows a culture that ultimately cannot take responsiblity for its actions. This is shown most in the area of abortion.

Faet · Joined: 04 Oct 2006 Posts: 67 Location: Florida

mojo wrote: John wrote: eynon wrote: I humbly disagree. Contraception is simply pragamtic and healthy. More-over how does it make a child any less a gift? If anything it should have the opposite effect; a child is planned for and welcomed into a loving home as opposed to being simply another accident and "burden".

Unwanted Children and abortion are not the result of contraception, but the absence of it.

Agreed. There is a period of time were my wife's body needs to rest from making babies (mentally more than physically). Does that mean we can't have sexual relations? Of course not.

There is a difference between using contraceptives in a responsible manner and using them to promote a sinful lifestyle.

1 Corinthians 10
23 All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable All things are lawful, but not all things edify.

The key for living a Christian life is to just follow the lead that the Holy Spirit puts in your life. There is a time and place for things such as condoms, and if you are walking correctly with the Lord…you’ll know the difference.

Why can't you abstain from having sex then? It seems a little more in tune with God's wishes to allow for choice to be a requisite to action than to have unnatural barriers destroying choice. A condom undermines the Christian values of openness to God. Unnatural contraception is closing yourself off to the gifts that God is according to you. If God wills it for you to have children, shouldn't you be receptive to that will.

Protected sex is just a way to enjoy the pleasures associated with sex without experiencing the possible rewards and/or consequences of those decisions.

It invariably leads to wrong characterizations of what sex and relationships are.

God's will doesn't allow you to have children, it is a biological process.

Whether or not you believe God created that biological process is the divide, but you cannot deny it. If you believe God did make it, then he also made it pleasurable.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 22949

mojo wrote: John wrote: eynon wrote: I humbly disagree. Contraception is simply pragamtic and healthy. More-over how does it make a child any less a gift? If anything it should have the opposite effect; a child is planned for and welcomed into a loving home as opposed to being simply another accident and "burden".

Unwanted Children and abortion are not the result of contraception, but the absence of it.

Agreed. There is a period of time were my wife's body needs to rest from making babies (mentally more than physically). Does that mean we can't have sexual relations? Of course not.

There is a difference between using contraceptives in a responsible manner and using them to promote a sinful lifestyle.

1 Corinthians 10
23 All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable All things are lawful, but not all things edify.

The key for living a Christian life is to just follow the lead that the Holy Spirit puts in your life. There is a time and place for things such as condoms, and if you are walking correctly with the Lord…you’ll know the difference.

Why can't you abstain from having sex then? It seems a little more in tune with God's wishes to allow for choice to be a requisite to action than to have unnatural barriers destroying choice. A condom undermines the Christian values of openness to God. Unnatural contraception is closing yourself off to the gifts that God is according to you. If God wills it for you to have children, shouldn't you be receptive to that will.

Protected sex is just a way to enjoy the pleasures associated with sex without experiencing the possible rewards and/or consequences of those decisions.

It invariably leads to wrong characterizations of what sex and relationships are.

Show me that in the Bible.

What you are promoting is a man-made rule, the Bible doesn’t say that anywhere. It’s no better than what the Pharisees were doing in the time of Jesus, placing a man made interpretation to God’s will and in doing so invalidating the real point behind what God has told us to do.

I can show you were the Bible specifically says not to deprive my wife from sexual pleasure, and her to do likewise (1 Corinthians chapter 7)…but I can’t find a word on this issue you seem to think is so important.

What you are telling me to do would be a sin, it would place an un needed burden on my family over nonsense. Me and my wife are being fruitful and multiplying. But I also need to be responsible and care for my wife’s health….and I’m doubt that a piece of rubber could thwart God’s will if it really is in His will for us to have a child during her rest.

Look, the Catholic Church has a weird view that sex is sinful, and only has the purpose of procreating children. That view is not supported by the Bible. There is more to the purpose behind sex between married people than just having kids. What it pictures is deep and profound….maybe you should study the Song of Solomon.

mojo · Joined: 08 Sep 2005 Posts: 5487 Location: Dreamland, NC

John wrote: mojo wrote: John wrote: eynon wrote: I humbly disagree. Contraception is simply pragamtic and healthy. More-over how does it make a child any less a gift? If anything it should have the opposite effect; a child is planned for and welcomed into a loving home as opposed to being simply another accident and "burden".

Unwanted Children and abortion are not the result of contraception, but the absence of it.

Agreed. There is a period of time were my wife's body needs to rest from making babies (mentally more than physically). Does that mean we can't have sexual relations? Of course not.

There is a difference between using contraceptives in a responsible manner and using them to promote a sinful lifestyle.

1 Corinthians 10
23 All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable All things are lawful, but not all things edify.

The key for living a Christian life is to just follow the lead that the Holy Spirit puts in your life. There is a time and place for things such as condoms, and if you are walking correctly with the Lord…you’ll know the difference.

Why can't you abstain from having sex then? It seems a little more in tune with God's wishes to allow for choice to be a requisite to action than to have unnatural barriers destroying choice. A condom undermines the Christian values of openness to God. Unnatural contraception is closing yourself off to the gifts that God is according to you. If God wills it for you to have children, shouldn't you be receptive to that will.

Protected sex is just a way to enjoy the pleasures associated with sex without experiencing the possible rewards and/or consequences of those decisions.

It invariably leads to wrong characterizations of what sex and relationships are.

Show me that in the Bible.

What you are promoting is a man-made rule, the Bible doesn’t say that anywhere. It’s no better than what the Pharisees were doing in the time of Jesus, placing a man made interpretation to God’s will and in doing so invalidating the real point behind what God has told us to do.

I can show you were the Bible specifically says not to deprive my wife from sexual pleasure, and her to do likewise (1 Corinthians chapter 7)…but I can’t find a word on this issue you seem to think is so important.

What you are telling me to do would be a sin, it would place an un needed burden on my family over nonsense. Me and my wife are being fruitful and multiplying. But I also need to be responsible and care for my wife’s health….and I’m doubt that a piece of rubber could thwart God’s will if it really is in His will for us to have a child during her rest.

Look, the Catholic Church has a weird view that sex is sinful, and only has the purpose of procreating children. That view is not supported by the Bible. There is more to the purpose behind sex between married people than just having kids. What it pictures is deep and profound….maybe you should study the Song of Solomon.

Well you cite Corinthians 7. Corinthians only further reinforces my point. You are probably refering to Corinthians 7: 3-4 in which Paul writes

Corinthians 7: 3-4 wrote: 3The husband must fulfill his duty to his wife, and likewise also the wife to her husband.

4The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does; and likewise also the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does.

But what you forgot to mention was Corinthians 7: 5

Corinthians 7: 5 wrote: Stop depriving one another, except by agreement for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer, and come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

Corinthians 7: 5 says that our self control is important when dealing with our sexual lives. I think its as clear as Scripture can get about something that wasn't even around 2000 years ago.

The Christian and Catholic church is revealed revelation today in the same way that Corinthians was revealed to Paul after Christ's death about 2000 years ago. This view does not strike down or reverse existing positions but fulfills them in the way Christ intended.

Well human's used to have many more children than they do now and under more strenuous conditions. Many families still have 10 or twelve children. This position is not supposed to take away from the overall relationship with god as you suggest. This perspective only strengthens that relationship by reinforcing prayer and self-control.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 22949

Do you have any kids mojo?

Becuase I do...with one on the way.

mojo · Joined: 08 Sep 2005 Posts: 5487 Location: Dreamland, NC

John wrote: Do you have any kids mojo?

Becuase I do...with one on the way.

No I don't. You definately beat me there.

Just because I don't have children does not make my views on the issue any less important. For example I can imagine that you have never been to Iraq. But I still trust that your opinions can be just as valid regardless of whether or not you served in a military capacity in Iraq.

But I'm planning on having a bunch of kids.

eynon · Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 5:30 pm Post subject:

John wrote: mojo wrote: John wrote: eynon wrote: I humbly disagree. Contraception is simply pragamtic and healthy. More-over how does it make a child any less a gift? If anything it should have the opposite effect; a child is planned for and welcomed into a loving home as opposed to being simply another accident and "burden".

Unwanted Children and abortion are not the result of contraception, but the absence of it.

Agreed. There is a period of time were my wife's body needs to rest from making babies (mentally more than physically). Does that mean we can't have sexual relations? Of course not.

There is a difference between using contraceptives in a responsible manner and using them to promote a sinful lifestyle.

1 Corinthians 10
23 All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable All things are lawful, but not all things edify.

The key for living a Christian life is to just follow the lead that the Holy Spirit puts in your life. There is a time and place for things such as condoms, and if you are walking correctly with the Lord…you’ll know the difference.

Why can't you abstain from having sex then? It seems a little more in tune with God's wishes to allow for choice to be a requisite to action than to have unnatural barriers destroying choice. A condom undermines the Christian values of openness to God. Unnatural contraception is closing yourself off to the gifts that God is according to you. If God wills it for you to have children, shouldn't you be receptive to that will.

Protected sex is just a way to enjoy the pleasures associated with sex without experiencing the possible rewards and/or consequences of those decisions.

It invariably leads to wrong characterizations of what sex and relationships are.

Show me that in the Bible.

What you are promoting is a man-made rule, the Bible doesn’t say that anywhere. It’s no better than what the Pharisees were doing in the time of Jesus, placing a man made interpretation to God’s will and in doing so invalidating the real point behind what God has told us to do.

I can show you were the Bible specifically says not to deprive my wife from sexual pleasure, and her to do likewise (1 Corinthians chapter 7)…but I can’t find a word on this issue you seem to think is so important.

What you are telling me to do would be a sin, it would place an un needed burden on my family over nonsense. Me and my wife are being fruitful and multiplying. But I also need to be responsible and care for my wife’s health….and I’m doubt that a piece of rubber could thwart God’s will if it really is in His will for us to have a child during her rest.

Look, the Catholic Church has a weird view that sex is sinful, and only has the purpose of procreating children. That view is not supported by the Bible. There is more to the purpose behind sex between married people than just having kids. What it pictures is deep and profound….maybe you should study the Song of Solomon.

:clap: :clap: well said John..........congrats on your coming kid :-D

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 22949

mojo wrote: John wrote: Do you have any kids mojo?

Becuase I do...with one on the way.

No I don't. You definately beat me there.

Just because I don't have children does not make my views on the issue any less important. For example I can imagine that you have never been to Iraq. But I still trust that your opinions can be just as valid regardless of whether or not you served in a military capacity in Iraq.

But I'm planning on having a bunch of kids.

Hey man...I hear what you are saying...and I agree to a certain extent.

All I'm saying is that there are times when contraceptives are appropriate, that there isn't any..."thou should not use contraceptives" in the Bible.

Have you ever heard of Postpartum Depression? Well it just isn't healthy for some women to pop out kids one after another. If God blesses you with a wife who doesn't have this problem, then great. But some of us have to deal with things like this....and it wouldn't help to add fire to the flame to refuse to make love to my wife for a year or two over some belief that contraceptives are evil....when they're not. They are a tool and have responsible uses just like any other tool.

And BTW…someone who has actually served in Iraq DOES have a more valid opinion on the subject that someone who has just watches the war on Fox news broadcasts.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 22949

eynon wrote: John wrote: mojo wrote: John wrote: eynon wrote: I humbly disagree. Contraception is simply pragamtic and healthy. More-over how does it make a child any less a gift? If anything it should have the opposite effect; a child is planned for and welcomed into a loving home as opposed to being simply another accident and "burden".

Unwanted Children and abortion are not the result of contraception, but the absence of it.

Agreed. There is a period of time were my wife's body needs to rest from making babies (mentally more than physically). Does that mean we can't have sexual relations? Of course not.

There is a difference between using contraceptives in a responsible manner and using them to promote a sinful lifestyle.

1 Corinthians 10
23 All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable All things are lawful, but not all things edify.

The key for living a Christian life is to just follow the lead that the Holy Spirit puts in your life. There is a time and place for things such as condoms, and if you are walking correctly with the Lord…you’ll know the difference.

Why can't you abstain from having sex then? It seems a little more in tune with God's wishes to allow for choice to be a requisite to action than to have unnatural barriers destroying choice. A condom undermines the Christian values of openness to God. Unnatural contraception is closing yourself off to the gifts that God is according to you. If God wills it for you to have children, shouldn't you be receptive to that will.

Protected sex is just a way to enjoy the pleasures associated with sex without experiencing the possible rewards and/or consequences of those decisions.

It invariably leads to wrong characterizations of what sex and relationships are.

Show me that in the Bible.

What you are promoting is a man-made rule, the Bible doesn’t say that anywhere. It’s no better than what the Pharisees were doing in the time of Jesus, placing a man made interpretation to God’s will and in doing so invalidating the real point behind what God has told us to do.

I can show you were the Bible specifically says not to deprive my wife from sexual pleasure, and her to do likewise (1 Corinthians chapter 7)…but I can’t find a word on this issue you seem to think is so important.

What you are telling me to do would be a sin, it would place an un needed burden on my family over nonsense. Me and my wife are being fruitful and multiplying. But I also need to be responsible and care for my wife’s health….and I’m doubt that a piece of rubber could thwart God’s will if it really is in His will for us to have a child during her rest.

Look, the Catholic Church has a weird view that sex is sinful, and only has the purpose of procreating children. That view is not supported by the Bible. There is more to the purpose behind sex between married people than just having kids. What it pictures is deep and profound….maybe you should study the Song of Solomon.

:clap: :clap: well said John..........congrats on your coming kid :-D

Thanks. :-D

toddytodd · Joined: 20 May 2006 Posts: 2736

dtwizzy2k5 wrote: John wrote: eynon wrote: I humbly disagree. Contraception is simply pragamtic and healthy. More-over how does it make a child any less a gift? If anything it should have the opposite effect; a child is planned for and welcomed into a loving home as opposed to being simply another accident and "burden".

Unwanted Children and abortion are not the result of contraception, but the absence of it.

Agreed. There is a period of time were my wife's body needs to rest from making babies (mentally more than physically). Does that mean we can't have sexual relations? Of course not.

There is a difference between using contraceptives in a responsible manner and using them to promote a sinful lifestyle.

1 Corinthians 10
23 All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable All things are lawful, but not all things edify.

The key for living a Christian life is to just follow the lead that the Holy Spirit puts in your life. There is a time and place for things such as condoms, and if you are walking correctly with the Lord…you’ll know the difference.

Agreed. There's nothing wrong with contraception between two married partners. Unmarried partners, on the other hand, well thats a different story...

Shouldn't non-married partners be more apt (and or even suggested to), to use contraception? If not, that seems to be a exact opposite from what one might expect to hear.