Political Crossfire Forums

[MoscowMatt]

Around 100 people were taken to hospital after Monday's violence
The European Union has asked Hungary to explain reports that its police used excessive force to break up an anti-government protest in Budapest.
EU Justice Commissioner Franco Frattini said he had not made any accusations but was asking for facts.

Dozens of people were injured on Monday when police used tear gas and rubber bullets against protesters who threw stones and petrol bombs at police.

The clashes came on the 50th anniversary of the anti-Soviet revolt.

Mr Frattini made his request for information on Monday's events in a letter to Hungary's Justice Minister Jozsef Petretei.

A spokesman for Mr Frattini said the letter asked for "clarification on the allegation of the possible excessive use of force".

Street battle

Around 100 people were hospitalised after Monday's violence which began when police moved to evict a protest camp from outside parliament in central Budapest.

It turned into a 12-hour street battle between police and thousands of mostly far-right anti-government protesters.


Hungary's PM said the protesters were "terrorising" Budapest
At one point a group of demonstrators briefly commandeered a tank taken from an exhibition marking the 1956 anti-Soviet uprising and tried to drive it into riot police.

Eventually the police used a snow plough to break through the barricades and disperse the demonstrators.

Kossuth Square outside parliament has been cordoned off by police since Monday and Budapest's city authorities have moved to restrict protests.

Resignations demanded

The BBC's Nick Thorpe reports from Budapest that accusations of police brutality have been coming thick and fast.

The main opposition Fidesz party has called for the resignation of Budapest's police chief Peter Gergenyi.

He denies his men used excessive force and has been backed by the governing socialists and liberals.

Hungarian Prime Minister Ferenc Gyurcsany has already called for an investigation, but said it needed to wait until tensions in the capital had eased.

There have been protests demanding Mr Gyurcsany's resignation for nearly six weeks.

On 17 September a recording was leaked of Mr Gyurcsany admitting he lied to win re-election.

He insists the protests will not affect his government and it will press ahead with economic reform measures.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6092932.stm


Apparently I have heard through my connections in Hungary that police were lashing out at people left right and center, and that the government were quite keen not to let this filter through to the media.

As for the camp that was outside parliament where people were evicted from. Well I walked through it just a few weeks ago. I'd hardly say it was a threat. I mean they even had a prayer tent!!! Gosh how threatening!! :lol:

If the EU want to really do something positive here then they should be putting pressure on the PM to step down.

[DSwain]

Why doesn't the EU f-off? This is an internal Hungarian matter and it's down to the Hungarian authorities - and the Hungarian people - as to what should happen next.

[MoscowMatt]

DSwain wrote: Why doesn't the EU f-off? This is an internal Hungarian matter and it's down to the Hungarian authorities - and the Hungarian people - as to what should happen next.

The Hungarian people have clearly shown what they want to happen. The authorities on the other hand are not obviously listening. If the EU could have a positive influence which is in the interests of the people then I think that can only be a good thing.

[DSwain]

MoscowMatt wrote: DSwain wrote: Why doesn't the EU f-off? This is an internal Hungarian matter and it's down to the Hungarian authorities - and the Hungarian people - as to what should happen next.

The Hungarian people have clearly shown what they want to happen. The authorities on the other hand are not obviously listening. If the EU could have a positive influence which is in the interests of the people then I think that can only be a good thing.

If the EU can make moves behind the scenes, all well and good; ditto, if nations such as Britain and France can influence the Hungarian government to 'do the right thing', then great - that's diplomacy. A Euro commissioner, however, has not been elected nor selected by the Hungarian people (nor anyone, in fact) so why on earth should Hungary care what he says?

[MoscowMatt]

DSwain wrote: MoscowMatt wrote: DSwain wrote: Why doesn't the EU f-off? This is an internal Hungarian matter and it's down to the Hungarian authorities - and the Hungarian people - as to what should happen next.

The Hungarian people have clearly shown what they want to happen. The authorities on the other hand are not obviously listening. If the EU could have a positive influence which is in the interests of the people then I think that can only be a good thing.

If the EU can make moves behind the scenes, all well and good; ditto, if nations such as Britain and France can influence the Hungarian government to 'do the right thing', then great - that's diplomacy. A Euro commissioner, however, has not been elected nor selected by the Hungarian people (nor anyone, in fact) so why on earth should Hungary care what he says?

Oh I'm sure they won't!! :lol: :lol: Especially the government. I mean as I already said they don't even listen to their own people!

[towelhead]

Hungary is a full time member of the EU. Its ppl vote in the EU parliamentary elections - so why shuld they listen to eu officials? Because they r eu nationals. The hungarian govt has access to top secret eu information!!!

[MoscowMatt]

towelhead wrote: Hungary is a full time member of the EU. Its ppl vote in the EU parliamentary elections - so why should they listen to eu officials? Because they r eu nationals. The hungarian govt has access to top secret eu information!!!

Hmmm I would argue about how much of a full member of the EU are Hungary due to the fact that their nationals like those of other EU Eastern Europe states are heavily restricted from working in most other EU countries.

Also for example. Hungarian farmers get next to nothing in subsidies whilst their 'rich' French counterparts are rolling in theirs! :1evil:

Hmmm top secret EU info eh? Sorry but for some reason the idea of the EU having top secret information makes me want to.. :rotf: !!!!

[DSwain]

MoscowMatt wrote: towelhead wrote: Hungary is a full time member of the EU. Its ppl vote in the EU parliamentary elections - so why should they listen to eu officials? Because they r eu nationals. The hungarian govt has access to top secret eu information!!!

Hmmm I would argue about how much of a full member of the EU are Hungary due to the fact that their nationals like those of other EU Eastern Europe states are heavily restricted from working in most other EU countries.

Also for example. Hungarian farmers get next to nothing in subsidies whilst their 'rich' French counterparts are rolling in theirs! :1evil:

Hmmm top secret EU info eh? Sorry but for some reason the idea of the EU having top secret information makes me want to.. :rotf: !!!!

Nice one, MM!

The only top secret information EU officials have is how much money the Euro commissioners are all claiming on expenses

The European Commission at work (an artist's impression):




Towelhead - Hungarians are Hungarian nationals first and foremost, the EU is just an organisation of which Hungary happens to be a member.

[towelhead]

You seem to misunderstand the role of the European Union. EU does not simply focus on economic stability. It also focuses on justice and external relations issues. The third pillar of the EU - 'Police and Judicial Co-operation in Criminal Matters' - requires EU institutions to implement european law - acquis communautaire - in members states. This law is superior to local (in this case hungarian) law. Therefore it is the EUs duty to make sure Hungary doesnt distort EU principles such as human rights, democracy or rule of law.

[DSwain]

towelhead wrote: You seem to misunderstand the role of the European Union. EU does not simply focus on economic stability. It also focuses on justice and external relations issues. The third pillar of the EU - 'Police and Judicial Co-operation in Criminal Matters' - requires EU institutions to implement european law - acquis communautaire - in members states. This law is superior to local (in this case hungarian) law. Therefore it is the EUs duty to make sure Hungary doesnt distort EU principles such as human rights, democracy or rule of law.

No, I do not misunderstand the role the European Union has imposed on its members - rather I wholeheartedly disagree with it. The EU should be solely about economics as opposed to diktat; as a Czech, I'm surprised that you should so willingly acquiesce to such a monolith after your country's history with the USSR and the Warsaw Pact.

[MoscowMatt]

towelhead wrote: You seem to misunderstand the role of the European Union. EU does not simply focus on economic stability. It also focuses on justice and external relations issues. The third pillar of the EU - 'Police and Judicial Co-operation in Criminal Matters' - requires EU institutions to implement european law - acquis communautaire - in members states. This law is superior to local (in this case hungarian) law. Therefore it is the EUs duty to make sure Hungary doesnt distort EU principles such as human rights, democracy or rule of law.

Quote: EU principles

Ah so that's the top secret info then, they have some principles!!!! :lol:

I agree with DSwain that the EU should be to do with economics only. Which was what it's initial state was when it came into being. The EU should should not be allowed to interfere with the sovereignty of any country unless under special circumstances where it's in the overwhelming interest of the people for them to do so. With that in mind I think they should put pressure on the Hungarian PM to quit, because he refuses to listen to the will of the people. I think most people can see that it is in the Hungarian people's interest for him to step aside.

[towelhead]

You see......Czechoslovakia became a Soviet satellite because certain Western nations preferred their national (economic) interests to the interests of a larger world; or of humanity if u will. EU-skepticism is very short-sighted. It should be in every nations interest to have allies. And the EU alliance is or should be based not merely on economic cooperation but on principles such as democracy or human rights that i believe r universal. Focusing on how eu membership will benefit you (financially) is selfish and dangerous.

[DSwain]

towelhead wrote: You see......Czechoslovakia became a Soviet satellite because certain Western nations preferred their national (economic) interests to the interests of a larger world; or of humanity if u will. EU-skepticism is very short-sighted. It should be in every nations interest to have allies. And the EU alliance is or should be based not merely on economic cooperation but on principles such as democracy or human rights that i believe r universal. Focusing on how eu membership will benefit you (financially) is selfish and dangerous.

But how can the European Union be based on principles such as democracy when laws from the Commission are superior to those of your parliament and mine? And you throw up the old smoke screen by suggesting that to be against political union is to be against having friends in Europe - that's nonsense. The UK and Canada are excellent allies - yet I don't feel the need to interfere in how the RCMP polices Toronto.

I'm afraid that you are naive or foolish to imagine that countries enter alliances for altruistic reasons - I want my government to fight for me, not for you.

[towelhead]

MoscowMatt wrote: towelhead wrote: You seem to misunderstand the role of the European Union. EU does not simply focus on economic stability. It also focuses on justice and external relations issues. The third pillar of the EU - 'Police and Judicial Co-operation in Criminal Matters' - requires EU institutions to implement european law - acquis communautaire - in members states. This law is superior to local (in this case hungarian) law. Therefore it is the EUs duty to make sure Hungary doesnt distort EU principles such as human rights, democracy or rule of law.

Quote: EU principles

Ah so that's the top secret info then, they have some principles!!!! :lol:

I agree with DSwain that the EU should be to do with economics only. Which was what it's initial state was when it came into being. The EU should should not be allowed to interfere with the sovereignty of any country unless under special circumstances where it's in the overwhelming interest of the people for them to do so. With that in mind I think they should put pressure on the Hungarian PM to quit, because he refuses to listen to the will of the people. I think most people can see that it is in the Hungarian people's interest for him to step aside.

Gyurcsany should step down and yes the EU should exerce pressure on him to do so - the guys a liar. But thats just it....first u r saying that the EU shouldnt interfere with hungarian affairs and now u would want to pressure the pm for the sake of eu integrity?! U call a violent demonstration 'ppls will'?! Is that ur 'special circumstance'?!
And by the way EU officials do come into contact with secret information. Common foreign policy branch is full of it.

[DSwain]

towelhead wrote: MoscowMatt wrote: towelhead wrote: You seem to misunderstand the role of the European Union. EU does not simply focus on economic stability. It also focuses on justice and external relations issues. The third pillar of the EU - 'Police and Judicial Co-operation in Criminal Matters' - requires EU institutions to implement european law - acquis communautaire - in members states. This law is superior to local (in this case hungarian) law. Therefore it is the EUs duty to make sure Hungary doesnt distort EU principles such as human rights, democracy or rule of law.

Quote: EU principles

Ah so that's the top secret info then, they have some principles!!!! :lol:

I agree with DSwain that the EU should be to do with economics only. Which was what it's initial state was when it came into being. The EU should should not be allowed to interfere with the sovereignty of any country unless under special circumstances where it's in the overwhelming interest of the people for them to do so. With that in mind I think they should put pressure on the Hungarian PM to quit, because he refuses to listen to the will of the people. I think most people can see that it is in the Hungarian people's interest for him to step aside.

Gyurcsany should step down and yes the EU should exerce pressure on him to do so - the guys a liar. But thats just it....first u r saying that the EU shouldnt interfere with hungarian affairs and now u would want to pressure the pm for the sake of eu integrity?! U call a violent demonstration 'ppls will'?! Is that ur 'special circumstance'?!
And by the way EU officials do come into contact with secret information. Common foreign policy branch is full of it.

Not a lot of secret stuff because security at the secretariat is a joke; the British certainly don't share a lot with the EU's security and foreign policy people as we share so much with the US - the US trusts the EU even less than does the UK.

Clearly Towelhead, you'll do very well in the European Union - ignoring what the people themselves want, which is the classic sign of the committed Eurocrat. You all seem to think that this thing you call 'Europe' would be great except for all of these annoyingly ungrateful and anti-union things called 'people'. Which is why the Commission is already trying to find ways to resurrect the EU Constitution, despite it being roundly rejected by the Dutch and by the French.

(Maxtsu - where are you?!)

[towelhead]

DSwain wrote: towelhead wrote: You see......Czechoslovakia became a Soviet satellite because certain Western nations preferred their national (economic) interests to the interests of a larger world; or of humanity if u will. EU-skepticism is very short-sighted. It should be in every nations interest to have allies. And the EU alliance is or should be based not merely on economic cooperation but on principles such as democracy or human rights that i believe r universal. Focusing on how eu membership will benefit you (financially) is selfish and dangerous.

But how can the European Union be based on principles such as democracy when laws from the Commission are superior to those of your parliament and mine? And you throw up the old smoke screen by suggesting that to be against political union is to be against having friends in Europe - that's nonsense. The UK and Canada are excellent allies - yet I don't feel the need to interfere in how the RCMP polices Toronto.

I'm afraid that you are naive or foolish to imagine that countries enter alliances for altruistic reasons - I want my government to fight for me, not for you.

Yet again u misunderstand me. Ill try to express myself correctly this time. There happens to be a thing u call 'mutual interest'. It was in US and UK interest to liberate eastern europe at the end of wwII. They didnt and what did they get? - Bipolar confrontation. European countries have so much in common that it is possible for them to make wide-scale alliance (economic, political, social, cultural and military), so why not make one? R u afraid of losing ur so-called identity? Its merely an abstract term.

[towelhead]

DSwain - u r beginning to sound like a leftist conspirator. It was the hungarian ppl who gave mandate to gyurcsany some years ago. Or did u think that he had a divine right to the pm post?

[DSwain]

towelhead wrote: DSwain wrote: towelhead wrote: You see......Czechoslovakia became a Soviet satellite because certain Western nations preferred their national (economic) interests to the interests of a larger world; or of humanity if u will. EU-skepticism is very short-sighted. It should be in every nations interest to have allies. And the EU alliance is or should be based not merely on economic cooperation but on principles such as democracy or human rights that i believe r universal. Focusing on how eu membership will benefit you (financially) is selfish and dangerous.

But how can the European Union be based on principles such as democracy when laws from the Commission are superior to those of your parliament and mine? And you throw up the old smoke screen by suggesting that to be against political union is to be against having friends in Europe - that's nonsense. The UK and Canada are excellent allies - yet I don't feel the need to interfere in how the RCMP polices Toronto.

I'm afraid that you are naive or foolish to imagine that countries enter alliances for altruistic reasons - I want my government to fight for me, not for you.

Yet again u misunderstand me. Ill try to express myself correctly this time. There happens to be a thing u call 'mutual interest'. It was in US and UK interest to liberate eastern europe at the end of wwII. They didnt and what did they get? - Bipolar confrontation. European countries have so much in common that it is possible for them to make wide-scale alliance (economic, political, social, cultural and military), so why not make one? R u afraid of losing ur so-called identity? Its merely an abstract term.


I do not misunderstand you, I am disagreeing with you - the one does not mutually involve the other.

It was not in UK or US national interest to 'liberate' eastern Europe in 1945 as that would have entailed a ground war with the Soviet Union which we might have lost. I'm sorry, it was a crappy thing for eastern Europe - but thanks to my country (and others) spending so much on defence over four decades, we outspent the USSR and the WP and allowed your country to get into a position where its brave citizens demanded their freedom.

This is not about abstract 'identity' but about something very tangible - who governs? To whom do I look for governance and who looks to me for democratic approval. I do not accept that pooled sovereignty is necessarily a 'good thing'. I agree with the concept to a very limited extent, such as that exercised by NATO - an attack on one is an attack on all - but why should my government have an opinion on the olive oil industry in Greece or automobiles in Germany? Those are matters for their governments. Otherwise, you operate in a democratic deficit.

My country has much more in common with countries of the Commonwealth and the US - but I'm not suggesting that we enter into a union with them either. The Yugoslav experience should have taught us that you foist political union onto people at your peril; I might also add that quite a number of Scots in my country are looking to dissolve our own political union!

[DSwain]

towelhead wrote: DSwain - u r beginning to sound like a leftist conspirator. It was the hungarian ppl who gave mandate to gyurcsany some years ago. Or did u think that he had a divine right to the pm post?

?

[MoscowMatt]

towelhead wrote: MoscowMatt wrote: towelhead wrote: You seem to misunderstand the role of the European Union. EU does not simply focus on economic stability. It also focuses on justice and external relations issues. The third pillar of the EU - 'Police and Judicial Co-operation in Criminal Matters' - requires EU institutions to implement european law - acquis communautaire - in members states. This law is superior to local (in this case hungarian) law. Therefore it is the EUs duty to make sure Hungary doesnt distort EU principles such as human rights, democracy or rule of law.

Quote: EU principles

Ah so that's the top secret info then, they have some principles!!!! :lol:

I agree with DSwain that the EU should be to do with economics only. Which was what it's initial state was when it came into being. The EU should should not be allowed to interfere with the sovereignty of any country unless under special circumstances where it's in the overwhelming interest of the people for them to do so. With that in mind I think they should put pressure on the Hungarian PM to quit, because he refuses to listen to the will of the people. I think most people can see that it is in the Hungarian people's interest for him to step aside.

Gyurcsany should step down and yes the EU should exerce pressure on him to do so - the guys a liar. But thats just it....first u r saying that the EU shouldnt interfere with hungarian affairs and now u would want to pressure the pm for the sake of eu integrity?! U call a violent demonstration 'ppls will'?! Is that ur 'special circumstance'?!
And by the way EU officials do come into contact with secret information. Common foreign policy branch is full of it.

No I want them to pressure the PM to quit for the sake of the Hungarian people alone. As for violent demonstrations, well as with demonstrations world wide there are always a section who are only too happy to turn it to violence.

If a country is governed against the wishes of it's people is that democracy?? I repeat the EU should not interfere with a nations sovereignty unless under special circumstances. i.e it's the overwhelming wish of the people.

That said I have contacts in Hungary who were there and they told me the Police were lashing out at anyone! Is it any surprise that it became violent!!

As they say in Hungary.... gyurcsány takarodj!! :-D