Political Crossfire Forums

[toddytodd]

Perhaps someone of the Catholic faith could enlighten me on why (or if) contraception's are 'bad'?
If they are considered 'bad' (or frowned upon), where is the biblical basis of this belief?
It never made any sense to me, but I am not Catholic

[mojo]

John wrote: mojo wrote: John wrote: Do you have any kids mojo?

Becuase I do...with one on the way.

No I don't. You definately beat me there.

Just because I don't have children does not make my views on the issue any less important. For example I can imagine that you have never been to Iraq. But I still trust that your opinions can be just as valid regardless of whether or not you served in a military capacity in Iraq.

But I'm planning on having a bunch of kids.

Hey man...I hear what you are saying...and I agree to a certain extent.

All I'm saying is that there are times when contraceptives are appropriate, that there isn't any..."thou should not use contraceptives" in the Bible.

Have you ever heard of Postpartum Depression? Well it just isn't healthy for some women to pop out kids one after another. If God blesses you with a wife who doesn't have this problem, then great. But some of us have to deal with things like this....and it wouldn't help to add fire to the flame to refuse to make love to my wife for a year or two over some belief that contraceptives are evil....when they're not. They are a tool and have responsible uses just like any other tool.


And BTW…someone who has actually served in Iraq DOES have a more valid opinion on the subject that someone who has just watches the war on Fox news broadcasts.

Well most Catholics just go by the clock. It seems to be a little more natural and requires the choice of the individual.

Im not condemning you for not using condums either. I really just wanted some enlightened debate on the issue.

I realized that after I posted that, concerning Iraq. But my logic applies to many other circumstances as well.

[mojo]

toddytodd wrote: Perhaps someone of the Catholic faith could enlighten me on why (or if) contraception's are 'bad'?
If they are considered 'bad' (or frowned upon), where is the biblical basis of this belief?
It never made any sense to me, but I am not Catholic

Maybe you could read "Casti Connubii" as posted in the original post to understand the full width and bredth of Catholic theology on the matter. There is a link in my original post.

[John]

mojo wrote: John wrote: mojo wrote: John wrote: Do you have any kids mojo?

Becuase I do...with one on the way.

No I don't. You definately beat me there.

Just because I don't have children does not make my views on the issue any less important. For example I can imagine that you have never been to Iraq. But I still trust that your opinions can be just as valid regardless of whether or not you served in a military capacity in Iraq.

But I'm planning on having a bunch of kids.

Hey man...I hear what you are saying...and I agree to a certain extent.

All I'm saying is that there are times when contraceptives are appropriate, that there isn't any..."thou should not use contraceptives" in the Bible.

Have you ever heard of Postpartum Depression? Well it just isn't healthy for some women to pop out kids one after another. If God blesses you with a wife who doesn't have this problem, then great. But some of us have to deal with things like this....and it wouldn't help to add fire to the flame to refuse to make love to my wife for a year or two over some belief that contraceptives are evil....when they're not. They are a tool and have responsible uses just like any other tool.


And BTW…someone who has actually served in Iraq DOES have a more valid opinion on the subject that someone who has just watches the war on Fox news broadcasts.

Well most Catholics just go by the clock. It seems to be a little more natural and requires the choice of the individual.

Im not condemning you for not using condums either. I really just wanted some enlightened debate on the issue.

I realized that after I posted that, concerning Iraq. But my logic applies to many other circumstances as well.

I haven't used one in a long time. I'm just saying that it isn't wise to stand up and shout that using one is always sinful, especially if you are wrong.

Do you think God takes kindly to adding to His Laws?

Just be careful is all I'm saying....we that take the stance of teaching will have a stricter judgment. And that can be a scary thing if not taken seriously.

[toddytodd]

mojo wrote: toddytodd wrote: Perhaps someone of the Catholic faith could enlighten me on why (or if) contraception's are 'bad'?
If they are considered 'bad' (or frowned upon), where is the biblical basis of this belief?
It never made any sense to me, but I am not Catholic

Maybe you could read "Casti Connubii" as posted in the original post to understand the full width and bredth of Catholic theology on the matter. There is a link in my original post.

Thanks for the direction. I did look over your original post, as well as the link you provided. Perhaps it is because I am not catholic, but I didn't see anything other than the basic "God wants us to procreate the species" type of argument, as well as various assumptions and phrase and references that aren't familiar to me. Is this the basic reasoning for which catholics base their belief about birth control?

[slitedeviance]

toddytodd wrote: Thanks for the direction. I did look over your original post, as well as the link you provided. Perhaps it is because I am not catholic, but I didn't see anything other than the basic "God wants us to procreate the species" type of argument, as well as various assumptions and phrase and references that aren't familiar to me. Is this the basic reasoning for which catholics base their belief about birth control?

It's certainly part of it (God wanted us to be fruitful and multiply apparently), but there are more aspects.

From what Mojo and John have been discussing a big part of it is down to self indulgence and self control. There is a view that a series of sexual relationships leads to a degredation in the way we treat people. If sex is not special, then neither are the people we consumate this with, and this is a slippy slope towards massive promiscuity (not my personal view but certainly one I can understand).

If we can maintain self control and keep sex to an activity reserved for our partner who we have a deep attachment to it prevents unwanted pregnancies, STI's, abuse of people, prostitution etc. I think there are alot of arguments put forward from Catholics with regards to the practicality of the situation, not just the spirituality.

[Gilbert1908]

toddytodd wrote: Perhaps someone of the Catholic faith could enlighten me on why (or if) contraception's are 'bad'?
If they are considered 'bad' (or frowned upon), where is the biblical basis of this belief?
It never made any sense to me, but I am not Catholic

I get tired of saying this but it seems it remains necessary, Catholics DO NOT believe that ALL TRUTH resides in the Bible nor do we take every word of the bible literally.

The issue is NOT ONLY contraception but the purpose and nature of sex as a life creating act of responsibility. The most simplistic way to understand it, is to say that ANY artificial interference in the creation of human life, places man's will over God's will and therefore is seen as wrong and obviously selfish to the extent that one seeks the pleasure without the purpose.

If I begin sex assuming I do not want to create a life but simply satisfy my own instinctual nature, then what will happen when I "accidently" create a life? The answers are obvious. The loving couple that believes each life is precious will pull together and raise a child in loving environment, the couple that places self over others will terminate the created life and continue their pattern, the scared single mom that places life over self will either find a way to raise the child on her own or place the created life up for adoption and the scared single mom who places self over others will terminate the life created, none of these scenarios is better than the couple that wanted to create a life to begin with and are happy when they are lucky enough to have succeeded.

The issue is NOT about contraception per se, but the meaning and significance of creating new life.

If you remove the "relgious" aspects to this point of view and simply say, is it BEST if people who have sex, do so when they are mature and in a committed relationship, then who would argure????

Cathoics are ALL FOR sex and as much of it as you can stand, they just think it should be contained in a mature committed and yes blessed relationship for the BEST possible outcome for the couple, their children and humanity in general.

The debate is one which is larger than sex and is defined by the ability for the individual to be responsible for the control of his/her human base instincts vs. the convenience and seduction of self indulgence. Contraception is just one of the many subitems in this much larger question of placing the needs of the self above all else.

[mojo]

John wrote: mojo wrote: John wrote: mojo wrote: John wrote: Do you have any kids mojo?

Becuase I do...with one on the way.

No I don't. You definately beat me there.

Just because I don't have children does not make my views on the issue any less important. For example I can imagine that you have never been to Iraq. But I still trust that your opinions can be just as valid regardless of whether or not you served in a military capacity in Iraq.

But I'm planning on having a bunch of kids.

Hey man...I hear what you are saying...and I agree to a certain extent.

All I'm saying is that there are times when contraceptives are appropriate, that there isn't any..."thou should not use contraceptives" in the Bible.

Have you ever heard of Postpartum Depression? Well it just isn't healthy for some women to pop out kids one after another. If God blesses you with a wife who doesn't have this problem, then great. But some of us have to deal with things like this....and it wouldn't help to add fire to the flame to refuse to make love to my wife for a year or two over some belief that contraceptives are evil....when they're not. They are a tool and have responsible uses just like any other tool.


And BTW…someone who has actually served in Iraq DOES have a more valid opinion on the subject that someone who has just watches the war on Fox news broadcasts.

Well most Catholics just go by the clock. It seems to be a little more natural and requires the choice of the individual.

Im not condemning you for not using condums either. I really just wanted some enlightened debate on the issue.

I realized that after I posted that, concerning Iraq. But my logic applies to many other circumstances as well.

I haven't used one in a long time. I'm just saying that it isn't wise to stand up and shout that using one is always sinful, especially if you are wrong.

Do you think God takes kindly to adding to His Laws?

Just be careful is all I'm saying....we that take the stance of teaching will have a stricter judgment. And that can be a scary thing if not taken seriously.

Are you saying that God's laws are only present within the Bible?

The bible was organized by MEN and guided by the holy spirit. In the same way the Catholic Church believes that the holy spirit guides their decision making process. Ultimately all decrees within the Catholic Church are rooted in the spirit of our Lord. Catholic decrees aren't meant to destroy Christ's message but are there to fill in the blanks of modern paradoxes.

[perdidochas]

eynon wrote: I humbly disagree. Contraception is simply pragamtic and healthy. More-over how does it make a child any less a gift? If anything it should have the opposite effect; a child is planned for and welcomed into a loving home as opposed to being simply another accident and "burden".

Unwanted Children and abortion are not the result of contraception, but the absence of it.

Your evidence for that is?

[perdidochas]

John wrote: Ok, the Catholic Church has a weird view that sex is sinful, and only has the purpose of procreating children. That view is not supported by the Bible. There is more to the purpose behind sex between married people than just having kids. What it pictures is deep and profound….maybe you should study the Song of Solomon.

Hmm, that's strange, I've been Catholic all my life (have attended Mass at least 90% of the Sundays that I've been alive), and I've never once heard that married sex is sinful and that the only purpose of sex is procreating children. Heck, I've even been through Catholic pre-marital counseling (I've been married almost ten years), and never once heard that stuff. What the Church teaches about sex is that it should always be open to procreation. That doesn't mean that procreation is the "only" purpose, and it certainly doesn't mean that married sex is at all sinful.

[perdidochas]

toddytodd wrote:
Shouldn't non-married partners be more apt (and or even suggested to), to use contraception? If not, that seems to be a exact opposite from what one might expect to hear.

Unmarried partners shouldn't be having sex at all. That said, it really doesn't matter if they use contraception or not--it's an equal sin. Unmarried people, on general principles, shouldn't be having sex without contraception.

[perdidochas]

toddytodd wrote: Perhaps someone of the Catholic faith could enlighten me on why (or if) contraception's are 'bad'?
If they are considered 'bad' (or frowned upon), where is the biblical basis of this belief?
It never made any sense to me, but I am not Catholic

Biblical basis:

Genesis 1:27 God created man in his image; in the divine image he created him; male and female he created them.
28 God blessed them, saying: "Be fertile and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it. Have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and all the living things that move on the earth."

Also
Genesis 38:9 Onan, however, knew that the descendants would not be counted as his; so whenever he had relations with his brother's widow, he wasted his seed on the ground, to avoid contributing offspring for his brother.
10 What he did greatly offended the LORD, and the LORD took his life too.

God didn't seem to like Onan having sex and spilling his seed on the ground.......

[toddytodd]

slitedeviance wrote: toddytodd wrote: Thanks for the direction. I did look over your original post, as well as the link you provided. Perhaps it is because I am not catholic, but I didn't see anything other than the basic "God wants us to procreate the species" type of argument, as well as various assumptions and phrase and references that aren't familiar to me. Is this the basic reasoning for which catholics base their belief about birth control?

It's certainly part of it (God wanted us to be fruitful and multiply apparently), but there are more aspects.

From what Mojo and John have been discussing a big part of it is down to self indulgence and self control. There is a view that a series of sexual relationships leads to a degredation in the way we treat people. If sex is not special, then neither are the people we consumate this with, and this is a slippy slope towards massive promiscuity (not my personal view but certainly one I can understand).

If we can maintain self control and keep sex to an activity reserved for our partner who we have a deep attachment to it prevents unwanted pregnancies, STI's, abuse of people, prostitution etc. I think there are alot of arguments put forward from Catholics with regards to the practicality of the situation, not just the spirituality.

I would tend to agree. Sex has its benefits, however, with these benefits comes responsibility. Seems as though that many people like to 'forget' about the responsibility part of the equation. That said, it is quite possible for people to have multiple partners and still preserve the benefits and responsibilities with sex.

[toddytodd]

Gilbert1908 wrote: toddytodd wrote: Perhaps someone of the Catholic faith could enlighten me on why (or if) contraception's are 'bad'?
If they are considered 'bad' (or frowned upon), where is the biblical basis of this belief?
It never made any sense to me, but I am not Catholic

I get tired of saying this but it seems it remains necessary, Catholics DO NOT believe that ALL TRUTH resides in the Bible nor do we take every word of the bible literally.

The issue is NOT ONLY contraception but the purpose and nature of sex as a life creating act of responsibility. The most simplistic way to understand it, is to say that ANY artificial interference in the creation of human life, places man's will over God's will and therefore is seen as wrong and obviously selfish to the extent that one seeks the pleasure without the purpose.

If I begin sex assuming I do not want to create a life but simply satisfy my own instinctual nature, then what will happen when I "accidently" create a life? The answers are obvious. The loving couple that believes each life is precious will pull together and raise a child in loving environment, the couple that places self over others will terminate the created life and continue their pattern, the scared single mom that places life over self will either find a way to raise the child on her own or place the created life up for adoption and the scared single mom who places self over others will terminate the life created, none of these scenarios is better than the couple that wanted to create a life to begin with and are happy when they are lucky enough to have succeeded.

The issue is NOT about contraception per se, but the meaning and significance of creating new life.

If you remove the "relgious" aspects to this point of view and simply say, is it BEST if people who have sex, do so when they are mature and in a committed relationship, then who would argure????

Cathoics are ALL FOR sex and as much of it as you can stand, they just think it should be contained in a mature committed and yes blessed relationship for the BEST possible outcome for the couple, their children and humanity in general.

The debate is one which is larger than sex and is defined by the ability for the individual to be responsible for the control of his/her human base instincts vs. the convenience and seduction of self indulgence. Contraception is just one of the many subitems in this much larger question of placing the needs of the self above all else.

Where do you (meaning catholics) get the basis for your idea(s) other than the bible?

[toddytodd]

perdidochas wrote: toddytodd wrote:
Shouldn't non-married partners be more apt (and or even suggested to), to use contraception? If not, that seems to be a exact opposite from what one might expect to hear.

Unmarried partners shouldn't be having sex at all. That said, it really doesn't matter if they use contraception or not--it's an equal sin. Unmarried people, on general principles, shouldn't be having sex without contraception.

Quote: Unmarried partners shouldn't be having sex at all.
Why not?
Quote: Unmarried partners shouldn't be having sex at all....Unmarried people, on general principles, shouldn't be having sex without contraception. Which is it? Should they not be having sex at all, or only with contraception?
Quote: That said, it really doesn't matter if they use contraception or not--it's an equal sin. Why? What about it is sinful?

[toddytodd]

perdidochas wrote: toddytodd wrote: Perhaps someone of the Catholic faith could enlighten me on why (or if) contraception's are 'bad'?
If they are considered 'bad' (or frowned upon), where is the biblical basis of this belief?
It never made any sense to me, but I am not Catholic

Biblical basis:

Genesis 1:27 God created man in his image; in the divine image he created him; male and female he created them.
28 God blessed them, saying: "Be fertile and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it. Have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and all the living things that move on the earth."

Also
Genesis 38:9 Onan, however, knew that the descendants would not be counted as his; so whenever he had relations with his brother's widow, he wasted his seed on the ground, to avoid contributing offspring for his brother.
10 What he did greatly offended the LORD, and the LORD took his life too.

God didn't seem to like Onan having sex and spilling his seed on the ground.......

Gen 1:27 Seems to only speak about how procreation is done (male & female - typical biology). It doesn't seem to speak to anything about 'sin'. Or am I missing it?
Gen 38:9 I could see how you could say that the act of trying to elude reproduction caused his death. But it can also been seen that God didn't want him to have sex with his sister-n-law. Or being wasteful in general. Regardless, how is this seen as sin?

[perdidochas]

toddytodd wrote: perdidochas wrote: toddytodd wrote:
Shouldn't non-married partners be more apt (and or even suggested to), to use contraception? If not, that seems to be a exact opposite from what one might expect to hear.

Unmarried partners shouldn't be having sex at all. That said, it really doesn't matter if they use contraception or not--it's an equal sin. Unmarried people, on general principles, shouldn't be having sex without contraception.

Quote: Unmarried partners shouldn't be having sex at all.
Why not?

1) Religious reasons.
2) I believe that every time you have sex with a person, you are building a bond (this is physical as well as emotional, it is based on the production of oxytocin when you have an orgasm). The more of those bonds you have with different people, the less strong the bonds become in general. I made the mistake of having sex with people I didn't marry. There is still a bond with them, whether I like it or not. I wish that I didn't have those prior bonds.
toddytodd wrote: Quote: Unmarried partners shouldn't be having sex at all....Unmarried people, on general principles, shouldn't be having sex without contraception. Which is it? Should they not be having sex at all, or only with contraception?

They shouldn't be having sex at all. However, having sex with contraception at least prevents some of the unwanted consequences of unmarital sex.

toddytodd wrote: Quote: That said, it really doesn't matter if they use contraception or not--it's an equal sin. Why? What about it is sinful?

Having sex with someone not your spouse is adultery.

[perdidochas]

toddytodd wrote: perdidochas wrote: toddytodd wrote: Perhaps someone of the Catholic faith could enlighten me on why (or if) contraception's are 'bad'?
If they are considered 'bad' (or frowned upon), where is the biblical basis of this belief?
It never made any sense to me, but I am not Catholic

Biblical basis:

Genesis 1:27 God created man in his image; in the divine image he created him; male and female he created them.
28 God blessed them, saying: "Be fertile and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it. Have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and all the living things that move on the earth."

Also
Genesis 38:9 Onan, however, knew that the descendants would not be counted as his; so whenever he had relations with his brother's widow, he wasted his seed on the ground, to avoid contributing offspring for his brother.
10 What he did greatly offended the LORD, and the LORD took his life too.

God didn't seem to like Onan having sex and spilling his seed on the ground.......

Gen 1:27 Seems to only speak about how procreation is done (male & female - typical biology). It doesn't seem to speak to anything about 'sin'. Or am I missing it?
Gen 38:9 I could see how you could say that the act of trying to elude reproduction caused his death. But it can also been seen that God didn't want him to have sex with his sister-n-law. Or being wasteful in general. Regardless, how is this seen as sin?

Gen 1:27--it says to be fertile and multiply. Contraception is against that. Contraception is an attempt to not be fertile and not multiply.

In the second case, Onan didn't want to have kids by his former sister-in-law. God killed him for spilling his seed on the ground in the attempt to not have children.

[toddytodd]

perdidochas wrote: toddytodd wrote: perdidochas wrote: toddytodd wrote:
Shouldn't non-married partners be more apt (and or even suggested to), to use contraception? If not, that seems to be a exact opposite from what one might expect to hear.

Unmarried partners shouldn't be having sex at all. That said, it really doesn't matter if they use contraception or not--it's an equal sin. Unmarried people, on general principles, shouldn't be having sex without contraception.

Quote: Unmarried partners shouldn't be having sex at all.
Why not?

1) Religious reasons.
2) I believe that every time you have sex with a person, you are building a bond (this is physical as well as emotional, it is based on the production of oxytocin when you have an orgasm). The more of those bonds you have with different people, the less strong the bonds become in general. I made the mistake of having sex with people I didn't marry. There is still a bond with them, whether I like it or not. I wish that I didn't have those prior bonds.
toddytodd wrote: Quote: Unmarried partners shouldn't be having sex at all....Unmarried people, on general principles, shouldn't be having sex without contraception. Which is it? Should they not be having sex at all, or only with contraception?

They shouldn't be having sex at all. However, having sex with contraception at least prevents some of the unwanted consequences of unmarital sex.

toddytodd wrote: Quote: That said, it really doesn't matter if they use contraception or not--it's an equal sin. Why? What about it is sinful?

Having sex with someone not your spouse is adultery.

I agree there tends to be bonds that are created. However, each person has a responsibility to themselves to know this can happen and be willing to live with the consequences.
Quote: They shouldn't be having sex at all. However, having sex with contraception at least prevents some of the unwanted consequences of unmarital sex. I understand that is your belief, but why shouldn't they? What exactly leads you to believe this? Contraception can prevent some unwanted consequences of marital life as well.
Quote: Having sex with someone not your spouse is adultery. Believing that is fine, as we all answer for our own actions. unless I misunderstood, is contraception within marriage a sin as well?

[toddytodd]

perdidochas wrote: toddytodd wrote: perdidochas wrote: toddytodd wrote: Perhaps someone of the Catholic faith could enlighten me on why (or if) contraception's are 'bad'?
If they are considered 'bad' (or frowned upon), where is the biblical basis of this belief?
It never made any sense to me, but I am not Catholic

Biblical basis:

Genesis 1:27 God created man in his image; in the divine image he created him; male and female he created them.
28 God blessed them, saying: "Be fertile and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it. Have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and all the living things that move on the earth."

Also
Genesis 38:9 Onan, however, knew that the descendants would not be counted as his; so whenever he had relations with his brother's widow, he wasted his seed on the ground, to avoid contributing offspring for his brother.
10 What he did greatly offended the LORD, and the LORD took his life too.

God didn't seem to like Onan having sex and spilling his seed on the ground.......

Gen 1:27 Seems to only speak about how procreation is done (male & female - typical biology). It doesn't seem to speak to anything about 'sin'. Or am I missing it?
Gen 38:9 I could see how you could say that the act of trying to elude reproduction caused his death. But it can also been seen that God didn't want him to have sex with his sister-n-law. Or being wasteful in general. Regardless, how is this seen as sin?

Gen 1:27--it says to be fertile and multiply. Contraception is against that. Contraception is an attempt to not be fertile and not multiply.

In the second case, Onan didn't want to have kids by his former sister-in-law. God killed him for spilling his seed on the ground in the attempt to not have children.

Quote: Gen 1:27--it says to be fertile and multiply. Contraception is against that. Contraception is an attempt to not be fertile and not multiply. I don't remember seeing this as a commandment. It would also seem to infer that whoever doesn't reproduce is sinning. This seems to be an assumed sin. Which, as long as it is held to a personal level, seems to be fine.
Quote: In the second case, Onan didn't want to have kids by his former sister-in-law. God killed him for spilling his seed on the ground in the attempt to not have children. That seems to be a stretch towards a 'pro-procreation' stance. God doesn't seem to be 'killin' off people' now for using contraception. The population seems to be doing quite well.
Regardless, there are differing ways to look at these quotes. I don't think one is more correct than the other. But thanks for trying to answer my questions.