Political Crossfire Forums

[Somebloke]

Marog, the simple fact that there has been a mere handful of terrorist attacks out of a population of 3 million speaks volumes concerning American muslim's attitudes to fundamentalist Islam. You say that you don't read Australian newspapers- but you surely must have read about the foiled attacks last year and in Britain. In both cases intelligence agencies first became aware of the issue through tip-offs from the Muslim community. As one commentator put it, "Muslims in America are not so much a source of terrorism as a first line of defence".

And I distinctly remember seeing news footage of Muslim leaders in America condemning the attacks after 9/11.

We have Indonesians (largest Muslim nation on Earth) and Malaysians voting in secular governments when there were Islamic parties on offer. We have Indonesian police hunting down JI bombers- and succeeding. We have Iraqi police desperately trying to hold their nation together while hatred erupts around them. Their actions speak louder than words, surely.

...Perhaps you need to start reading the right papers.

At any rate, this misses another big issue; this ridiculous need of yours to have people constantly condemn the attacks sounds too much like Mao-style "loyalty pledges" to me- the average Muslim on the street hasn't committed any crimes, so why on Earth should they feel guilt? They've done no more or less to help terrorism than most other people- stop blaming them for the actions of murderers.

[Margo]

Somebloke wrote: Marog, the simple fact that there has been a mere handful of terrorist attacks out of a population of 3 million speaks volumes concerning American muslim's attitudes to fundamentalist Islam. You say that you don't read Australian newspapers- but you surely must have read about the foiled attacks last year and in Britain. In both cases intelligence agencies first became aware of the issue through tip-offs from the Muslim community. As one commentator put it, "Muslims in America are not so much a source of terrorism as a first line of defence".

And I distinctly remember seeing news footage of Muslim leaders in America condemning the attacks after 9/11.

We have Indonesians (largest Muslim nation on Earth) and Malaysians voting in secular governments when there were Islamic parties on offer. We have Indonesian police hunting down JI bombers- and succeeding. We have Iraqi police desperately trying to hold their nation together while hatred erupts around them. Their actions speak louder than words, surely.

...Perhaps you need to start reading the right papers.

At any rate, this misses another big issue; this ridiculous need of yours to have people constantly condemn the attacks sounds too much like Mao-style "loyalty pledges" to me- the average Muslim on the street hasn't committed any crimes, so why on Earth should they feel guilt? They've done no more or less to help terrorism than most other people- stop blaming them for the actions of murderers.

Perhaps the problem lies with the media to make it more known then? Seriosuly, I'm up to date on current events but it's not widely reported here except for few incidents. What I am concerned about is the complacency people have. It's human nature to allow ourselves to drift back into false security. That's what partly got us into 9/11. For all the vile hatred spewing out of radical Islam, there should be a public outcry against it. We have demonstrations here by radical Islamists in the streets of NYC and you know what?? People stand in silence and WATCH! Sure they are allowed to protest, free speech gives them the right to trample our values...but C'mon...people need to wake up and at least stand up for their ideology. It's not happening enough if at all. I want the average Muslim on the street, the average Christian, average Jew, average everybody to condemn these hateful things instead of fearing the retribution of political correctness, it's not a Maoist pledge, it's called wishful thinking and wanting people to become aware of what the reality is. I listen all the time to people saying it's not a big deal, it's not a real threat, they don't really mean it, it's being blown out of proportion, we shouldn't criticize the,. they have issues too! What gets me ramped up is that this is the type of thinking that will get us all killed because once we let down our guard, you can bet terrorism will be back on our doorstep. That's just the nature of this particular beast.
I'm putting the pressure on Muslims in particular because it's their religion which is being hijacked to destroy mine! I think they bear a certain responsibility to NOT stand by and allow their beliefs to be twisted this way, I think they have a moral obligation not only to themselves but to all of us. I wholeheartedly applaud those who stand up against radical Islamicists! But it's not enough. We need more of it. What's wrong with that?

[Somebloke]

I understand you're frustration- there is a serious threat, and people cannot become complacent. Just understand in this instance, you cannot demand people speak and act the way you want in a democracy. And that, yes, people- including Muslims- are speaking out. Moderates, by their nature, are more cautious and make more noise than extremists.

[Margo]

Somebloke wrote: I understand you're frustration- there is a serious threat, and people cannot become complacent. Just understand in this instance, you cannot demand people speak and act the way you want in a democracy. And that, yes, people- including Muslims- are speaking out. Moderates, by their nature, are more cautious and make more noise than extremists.

Thanks Aussie for understanding my frustration. I worry where we'll be 5 - 10 years from now. I often think this is how people must have felt in the late 1930's in Europe with Nazism.

I know I can't demand anything, but I can hope and I can make noise about it. I just don't want to be the one who ends up cleaning up the mess complacency will eventually bring. I've done it more than I care to remember.

[Somebloke]

Margo wrote: Somebloke wrote: I understand you're frustration- there is a serious threat, and people cannot become complacent. Just understand in this instance, you cannot demand people speak and act the way you want in a democracy. And that, yes, people- including Muslims- are speaking out. Moderates, by their nature, are more cautious and make more noise than extremists.

Thanks Aussie for understanding my frustration. I worry where we'll be 5 - 10 years from now. I often think this is how people must have felt in the late 1930's in Europe with Nazism.

I know I can't demand anything, but I can hope and I can make noise about it. I just don't want to be the one who ends up cleaning up the mess complacency will eventually bring. I've done it more than I care to remember.

Keep in mind that in the 1930's, the people that could stop this sort of thing were either making deals with Hitler, supporting him, or hoping that he'd go away; they didn't drive him into the caves of Afghanistan to rot away. Entire nations are acting on this, but-frustratingly- many of the battlefronts must be fought in slower, more subtle ways that do not lend themselves to acts of force (of course there are many ways force can and must be applied, if it's used intelligently).

[Margo]

Somebloke wrote: Margo wrote: Somebloke wrote: I understand you're frustration- there is a serious threat, and people cannot become complacent. Just understand in this instance, you cannot demand people speak and act the way you want in a democracy. And that, yes, people- including Muslims- are speaking out. Moderates, by their nature, are more cautious and make more noise than extremists.

Thanks Aussie for understanding my frustration. I worry where we'll be 5 - 10 years from now. I often think this is how people must have felt in the late 1930's in Europe with Nazism.

I know I can't demand anything, but I can hope and I can make noise about it. I just don't want to be the one who ends up cleaning up the mess complacency will eventually bring. I've done it more than I care to remember.

Keep in mind that in the 1930's, the people that could stop this sort of thing were either making deals with Hitler, supporting him, or hoping that he'd go away; they didn't drive him into the caves of Afghanistan to rot away. Entire nations are acting on this, but-frustratingly- many of the battlefronts must be fought in slower, more subtle ways that do not lend themselves to acts of force (of course there are many ways force can and must be applied, if it's used intelligently).

Very true. Good point. In this country, today is our mid term elections. I'm deeply troubled by the mood here which has grown very impatient with how the Iraq war is being conducted. As you said about the battle fronts, they must be fought in a slower or more methodical way compared to WWII. This doesnt make the enemy any less viable but yet people seem to think this. So many people want instant gratification in everything today...I'm not sure I understand anymore. It' a whole different mindset compared to what I was raised with...
Well, I'm off to vote...republican!

[Lucky Luke]

Margo wrote: Somebloke wrote: I understand you're frustration- there is a serious threat, and people cannot become complacent. Just understand in this instance, you cannot demand people speak and act the way you want in a democracy. And that, yes, people- including Muslims- are speaking out. Moderates, by their nature, are more cautious and make more noise than extremists.

Thanks Aussie for understanding my frustration. I worry where we'll be 5 - 10 years from now. I often think this is how people must have felt in the late 1930's in Europe with Nazism.

I know I can't demand anything, but I can hope and I can make noise about it. I just don't want to be the one who ends up cleaning up the mess complacency will eventually bring. I've done it more than I care to remember.

In Germany in the 30's people were talking about the Communists and the Jews and how nobody were standing against them. I can hear the same people today talking about the Muslim people making them responsible for what they are not. The danger is that you are pointing out to us a danger which is a hell smaller than the one we have become in this world today. The Nazis were telling the people that the Communists and the Jews were after their Christian German way of life as an excuse to exterminate them, Bush and Bliar are using the same language. What did the German people do when Hitler invaded Poland, what will we do when Bush and Bliar start to invade Muslim countries?

:-D
:-D

[The Newb]

Lucky Luke wrote: Margo wrote: Somebloke wrote: I understand you're frustration- there is a serious threat, and people cannot become complacent. Just understand in this instance, you cannot demand people speak and act the way you want in a democracy. And that, yes, people- including Muslims- are speaking out. Moderates, by their nature, are more cautious and make more noise than extremists.

Thanks Aussie for understanding my frustration. I worry where we'll be 5 - 10 years from now. I often think this is how people must have felt in the late 1930's in Europe with Nazism.

I know I can't demand anything, but I can hope and I can make noise about it. I just don't want to be the one who ends up cleaning up the mess complacency will eventually bring. I've done it more than I care to remember.

In Germany in the 30's people were talking about the Communists and the Jews and how nobody were standing against them. I can hear the same people today talking about the Muslim people making them responsible for what they are not. The danger is that you are pointing out to us a danger which is a hell smaller than the one we have become in this world today. The Nazis were telling the people that the Communists and the Jews were after their Christian German way of life as an excuse to exterminate them, Bush and Bliar are using the same language. What did the German people do when Hitler invaded Poland, what will we do when Bush and Bliar start to invade Muslim countries?

:-D
:-D

cheer them on

[Lucky Luke]

The Newb wrote: Lucky Luke wrote: Margo wrote: Somebloke wrote: I understand you're frustration- there is a serious threat, and people cannot become complacent. Just understand in this instance, you cannot demand people speak and act the way you want in a democracy. And that, yes, people- including Muslims- are speaking out. Moderates, by their nature, are more cautious and make more noise than extremists.

Thanks Aussie for understanding my frustration. I worry where we'll be 5 - 10 years from now. I often think this is how people must have felt in the late 1930's in Europe with Nazism.

I know I can't demand anything, but I can hope and I can make noise about it. I just don't want to be the one who ends up cleaning up the mess complacency will eventually bring. I've done it more than I care to remember.

In Germany in the 30's people were talking about the Communists and the Jews and how nobody were standing against them. I can hear the same people today talking about the Muslim people making them responsible for what they are not. The danger is that you are pointing out to us a danger which is a hell smaller than the one we have become in this world today. The Nazis were telling the people that the Communists and the Jews were after their Christian German way of life as an excuse to exterminate them, Bush and Bliar are using the same language. What did the German people do when Hitler invaded Poland, what will we do when Bush and Bliar start to invade Muslim countries?

:-D
:-D

cheer them on

Exactly what the German people did The Newb.

:-D
:-D

[emerald]

Quote: Perhaps the problem lies with the media to make it more known then? Seriosuly, I'm up to date on current events but it's not widely reported here except for few incidents. What I am concerned about is the complacency people have. It's human nature to allow ourselves to drift back into false security. That's what partly got us into 9/11. For all the vile hatred spewing out of radical Islam, there should be a public outcry against it. We have demonstrations here by radical Islamists in the streets of NYC and you know what?? People stand in silence and WATCH! Sure they are allowed to protest, free speech gives them the right to trample our values...but C'mon...people need to wake up and at least stand up for their ideology. It's not happening enough if at all. I want the average Muslim on the street, the average Christian, average Jew, average everybody to condemn these hateful things instead of fearing the retribution of political correctness, it's not a Maoist pledge, it's called wishful thinking and wanting people to become aware of what the reality is. I listen all the time to people saying it's not a big deal, it's not a real threat, they don't really mean it, it's being blown out of proportion, we shouldn't criticize the,. they have issues too! What gets me ramped up is that this is the type of thinking that will get us all killed because once we let down our guard, you can bet terrorism will be back on our doorstep. That's just the nature of this particular beast.

i dont want to be flipant or make you feel that your feelings arent natural or real or whatever (i cant thnk of the right word!) but you feel like your religion and your way of life is under sttack, and after sept 11 you feel like you yourself are under threat, and it's understandable and no one should have to feel that threat, but can you even imagine waht that is like for Iraqi's? for the muslims there? day in day out people getting killed, curfews set on you, being told you're not meant to think like this or view the world like that, and i know many americas believe they are doing the right thing by bringing freedoms to Iraq and democracy, but you cannot force people to change over a short period of time. you felt threatened by one catastophic incident, that threat is alive for them every single day and unlike you, they dont have the facilities to be able to get over that, or the time.

[Skiazo]

You actually do see this, rationalizing / excusing of behavior in many forms from many places. The common denominator is always refusal to acknowledge those responsible as such. Some that come to mind are:

Quote:

Its not his/her fault hes/shes stupid
He/She cant help hes/shes fat
He/She couldn't help but assault his/her teacher after playing a video game
last but not least:The uncovered meat is the problem.



I will leave additional instances for the reader to conjure.
One theory is that these excusers have severe inadequacy issues and excuse others so they themselves can avoid acknowledging their own responsibilities. The outrage is here and directed at social systems and/or subcultures that sanction making excuses for its members and perpetuating the delusion that Mankind is incapable of responsibility.

In addition, in this particular case, we might conclude that the comparison of inanimate material with a human being underscores how psychopaths view others. 8:)

[The Newb]

Lucky Luke wrote:
Exactly what the German people did The Newb.

:-D
:-D

but bush and blair do not have evil entents

[Lucky Luke]

The Newb wrote: Lucky Luke wrote:
Exactly what the German people did The Newb.

:-D
:-D

but bush and blair do not have evil entents

Hitler only thought about the security of his own people, he had no evil intents.............towards them.

:-D
:-D

[Somebloke]

Lucky Luke wrote: Margo wrote: Somebloke wrote: I understand you're frustration- there is a serious threat, and people cannot become complacent. Just understand in this instance, you cannot demand people speak and act the way you want in a democracy. And that, yes, people- including Muslims- are speaking out. Moderates, by their nature, are more cautious and make more noise than extremists.

Thanks Aussie for understanding my frustration. I worry where we'll be 5 - 10 years from now. I often think this is how people must have felt in the late 1930's in Europe with Nazism.

I know I can't demand anything, but I can hope and I can make noise about it. I just don't want to be the one who ends up cleaning up the mess complacency will eventually bring. I've done it more than I care to remember.

In Germany in the 30's people were talking about the Communists and the Jews and how nobody were standing against them. I can hear the same people today talking about the Muslim people making them responsible for what they are not. The danger is that you are pointing out to us a danger which is a hell smaller than the one we have become in this world today. The Nazis were telling the people that the Communists and the Jews were after their Christian German way of life as an excuse to exterminate them, Bush and Bliar are using the same language. What did the German people do when Hitler invaded Poland, what will we do when Bush and Bliar start to invade Muslim countries?

:-D
:-D This would be a worthwhile argument- and in a small way, it still is- if it wasn't for the fact that Bush, Blair and Howard (not counting glory-seeking Tories and Anne Coulter wannabies) have all gone out of their way to point out that they are not at war with Muslims; indeed, have attempted to justify Iraq and Afghanistan as a means of helping Muslims. Iraq is a mess; it could have been a lot worse if Aru Gharib was the norm rather than a scandle.

[Lucky Luke]

Somebloke wrote: Lucky Luke wrote: Margo wrote: Somebloke wrote: I understand you're frustration- there is a serious threat, and people cannot become complacent. Just understand in this instance, you cannot demand people speak and act the way you want in a democracy. And that, yes, people- including Muslims- are speaking out. Moderates, by their nature, are more cautious and make more noise than extremists.

Thanks Aussie for understanding my frustration. I worry where we'll be 5 - 10 years from now. I often think this is how people must have felt in the late 1930's in Europe with Nazism.

I know I can't demand anything, but I can hope and I can make noise about it. I just don't want to be the one who ends up cleaning up the mess complacency will eventually bring. I've done it more than I care to remember.

In Germany in the 30's people were talking about the Communists and the Jews and how nobody were standing against them. I can hear the same people today talking about the Muslim people making them responsible for what they are not. The danger is that you are pointing out to us a danger which is a hell smaller than the one we have become in this world today. The Nazis were telling the people that the Communists and the Jews were after their Christian German way of life as an excuse to exterminate them, Bush and Bliar are using the same language. What did the German people do when Hitler invaded Poland, what will we do when Bush and Bliar start to invade Muslim countries?

:-D
:-D This would be a worthwhile argument- and in a small way, it still is- if it wasn't for the fact that Bush, Blair and Howard (not counting glory-seeking Tories and Anne Coulter wannabies) have all gone out of their way to point out that they are not at war with Muslims; indeed, have attempted to justify Iraq and Afghanistan as a means of helping Muslims. Iraq is a mess; it could have been a lot worse if Aru Gharib was the norm rather than a scandle.

Hitler's armies were liberating countries after countries from the grip of those Jewish people and from the Communist threat, so were told the German population.

Abu Ghraib is the norm Somebloke, we are just not told as the German people found out in 1945.

Quote: As we discovered, there is even compelling evidence that the secret prisons of Saddam's day are back - stinking hell-holes where hundreds of victims are herded together to be raped, tortured and maimed for no crime other than belonging to the wrong sect.

And it's all happening under the eyes of US commanders, who seem unwilling or unable to intervene. These are the chilling findings of a special investigation, filmed for a Channel 4 documentary, The Death Squads that reveals how one of the most senior ministers in Iraq's new administration stands accused of presiding over a campaign to torture, maim and execute his enemies. And this is the dossier that utterly explodes the myth that peace and a liberal democracy are blossoming in the new 'liberated' Iraq.
http://www.channel4.com/news/dispatches/article.jsp?id=301

That's you told now.

:-D
:-D

[Margo]

emerald wrote: Quote: Perhaps the problem lies with the media to make it more known then? Seriosuly, I'm up to date on current events but it's not widely reported here except for few incidents. What I am concerned about is the complacency people have. It's human nature to allow ourselves to drift back into false security. That's what partly got us into 9/11. For all the vile hatred spewing out of radical Islam, there should be a public outcry against it. We have demonstrations here by radical Islamists in the streets of NYC and you know what?? People stand in silence and WATCH! Sure they are allowed to protest, free speech gives them the right to trample our values...but C'mon...people need to wake up and at least stand up for their ideology. It's not happening enough if at all. I want the average Muslim on the street, the average Christian, average Jew, average everybody to condemn these hateful things instead of fearing the retribution of political correctness, it's not a Maoist pledge, it's called wishful thinking and wanting people to become aware of what the reality is. I listen all the time to people saying it's not a big deal, it's not a real threat, they don't really mean it, it's being blown out of proportion, we shouldn't criticize the,. they have issues too! What gets me ramped up is that this is the type of thinking that will get us all killed because once we let down our guard, you can bet terrorism will be back on our doorstep. That's just the nature of this particular beast.

i dont want to be flipant or make you feel that your feelings arent natural or real or whatever (i cant thnk of the right word!) but you feel like your religion and your way of life is under sttack, and after sept 11 you feel like you yourself are under threat, and it's understandable and no one should have to feel that threat, but can you even imagine waht that is like for Iraqi's? for the muslims there? day in day out people getting killed, curfews set on you, being told you're not meant to think like this or view the world like that, and i know many americas believe they are doing the right thing by bringing freedoms to Iraq and democracy, but you cannot force people to change over a short period of time. you felt threatened by one catastophic incident, that threat is alive for them every single day and unlike you, they dont have the facilities to be able to get over that, or the time.

I feel very sorry for the Iraqis, epecially the 11 million who voted FOR democracy and freedom and have extremists and insurgents fighting them each step of the way. I also felt very sorry for the millions who were murdered, maimed, raped and terrorized under Saddam Hussein. I agree with you one can't change people overnight but people can vote for change and that's exactly what 11 million Iraqis did. That change isn't going to come easy.

[Margo]

Somebloke wrote: Lucky Luke wrote: Margo wrote: Somebloke wrote: I understand you're frustration- there is a serious threat, and people cannot become complacent. Just understand in this instance, you cannot demand people speak and act the way you want in a democracy. And that, yes, people- including Muslims- are speaking out. Moderates, by their nature, are more cautious and make more noise than extremists.

Thanks Aussie for understanding my frustration. I worry where we'll be 5 - 10 years from now. I often think this is how people must have felt in the late 1930's in Europe with Nazism.

I know I can't demand anything, but I can hope and I can make noise about it. I just don't want to be the one who ends up cleaning up the mess complacency will eventually bring. I've done it more than I care to remember.

In Germany in the 30's people were talking about the Communists and the Jews and how nobody were standing against them. I can hear the same people today talking about the Muslim people making them responsible for what they are not. The danger is that you are pointing out to us a danger which is a hell smaller than the one we have become in this world today. The Nazis were telling the people that the Communists and the Jews were after their Christian German way of life as an excuse to exterminate them, Bush and Bliar are using the same language. What did the German people do when Hitler invaded Poland, what will we do when Bush and Bliar start to invade Muslim countries?

:-D
:-D This would be a worthwhile argument- and in a small way, it still is- if it wasn't for the fact that Bush, Blair and Howard (not counting glory-seeking Tories and Anne Coulter wannabies) have all gone out of their way to point out that they are not at war with Muslims; indeed, have attempted to justify Iraq and Afghanistan as a means of helping Muslims. Iraq is a mess; it could have been a lot worse if Aru Gharib was the norm rather than a scandle.

You do realize that Muslims kill more Muslims than anyone else, right?

[Lucky Luke]

Margo wrote: emerald wrote: Quote: Perhaps the problem lies with the media to make it more known then? Seriosuly, I'm up to date on current events but it's not widely reported here except for few incidents. What I am concerned about is the complacency people have. It's human nature to allow ourselves to drift back into false security. That's what partly got us into 9/11. For all the vile hatred spewing out of radical Islam, there should be a public outcry against it. We have demonstrations here by radical Islamists in the streets of NYC and you know what?? People stand in silence and WATCH! Sure they are allowed to protest, free speech gives them the right to trample our values...but C'mon...people need to wake up and at least stand up for their ideology. It's not happening enough if at all. I want the average Muslim on the street, the average Christian, average Jew, average everybody to condemn these hateful things instead of fearing the retribution of political correctness, it's not a Maoist pledge, it's called wishful thinking and wanting people to become aware of what the reality is. I listen all the time to people saying it's not a big deal, it's not a real threat, they don't really mean it, it's being blown out of proportion, we shouldn't criticize the,. they have issues too! What gets me ramped up is that this is the type of thinking that will get us all killed because once we let down our guard, you can bet terrorism will be back on our doorstep. That's just the nature of this particular beast.

i dont want to be flipant or make you feel that your feelings arent natural or real or whatever (i cant thnk of the right word!) but you feel like your religion and your way of life is under sttack, and after sept 11 you feel like you yourself are under threat, and it's understandable and no one should have to feel that threat, but can you even imagine waht that is like for Iraqi's? for the muslims there? day in day out people getting killed, curfews set on you, being told you're not meant to think like this or view the world like that, and i know many americas believe they are doing the right thing by bringing freedoms to Iraq and democracy, but you cannot force people to change over a short period of time. you felt threatened by one catastophic incident, that threat is alive for them every single day and unlike you, they dont have the facilities to be able to get over that, or the time.

I feel very sorry for the Iraqis, epecially the 11 million who voted FOR democracy and freedom and have extremists and insurgents fighting them each step of the way. I also felt very sorry for the millions who were murdered, maimed, raped and terrorized under Saddam Hussein. I agree with you one can't change people overnight but people can vote for change and that's exactly what 11 million Iraqis did. That change isn't going to come easy.

They voted for a coalition led by a Grand Ayatollah, they voted for Iraq to become an Islamic Republic similar to Iran, this is what they voted for Margo.

:-D
:-D

[Margo]

Lucky Luke wrote: Margo wrote: emerald wrote: Quote: Perhaps the problem lies with the media to make it more known then? Seriosuly, I'm up to date on current events but it's not widely reported here except for few incidents. What I am concerned about is the complacency people have. It's human nature to allow ourselves to drift back into false security. That's what partly got us into 9/11. For all the vile hatred spewing out of radical Islam, there should be a public outcry against it. We have demonstrations here by radical Islamists in the streets of NYC and you know what?? People stand in silence and WATCH! Sure they are allowed to protest, free speech gives them the right to trample our values...but C'mon...people need to wake up and at least stand up for their ideology. It's not happening enough if at all. I want the average Muslim on the street, the average Christian, average Jew, average everybody to condemn these hateful things instead of fearing the retribution of political correctness, it's not a Maoist pledge, it's called wishful thinking and wanting people to become aware of what the reality is. I listen all the time to people saying it's not a big deal, it's not a real threat, they don't really mean it, it's being blown out of proportion, we shouldn't criticize the,. they have issues too! What gets me ramped up is that this is the type of thinking that will get us all killed because once we let down our guard, you can bet terrorism will be back on our doorstep. That's just the nature of this particular beast.

i dont want to be flipant or make you feel that your feelings arent natural or real or whatever (i cant thnk of the right word!) but you feel like your religion and your way of life is under sttack, and after sept 11 you feel like you yourself are under threat, and it's understandable and no one should have to feel that threat, but can you even imagine waht that is like for Iraqi's? for the muslims there? day in day out people getting killed, curfews set on you, being told you're not meant to think like this or view the world like that, and i know many americas believe they are doing the right thing by bringing freedoms to Iraq and democracy, but you cannot force people to change over a short period of time. you felt threatened by one catastophic incident, that threat is alive for them every single day and unlike you, they dont have the facilities to be able to get over that, or the time.

I feel very sorry for the Iraqis, epecially the 11 million who voted FOR democracy and freedom and have extremists and insurgents fighting them each step of the way. I also felt very sorry for the millions who were murdered, maimed, raped and terrorized under Saddam Hussein. I agree with you one can't change people overnight but people can vote for change and that's exactly what 11 million Iraqis did. That change isn't going to come easy.

They voted for a coalition led by a Grand Ayatollah, they voted for Iraq to become an Islamic Republic similar to Iran, this is what they voted for Margo.

:-D
:-D

Oh....my....God...you think the Iranian Revolution was a democratic vote????????????

[Lucky Luke]

Margo wrote: Lucky Luke wrote: Margo wrote: emerald wrote: Quote: Perhaps the problem lies with the media to make it more known then? Seriosuly, I'm up to date on current events but it's not widely reported here except for few incidents. What I am concerned about is the complacency people have. It's human nature to allow ourselves to drift back into false security. That's what partly got us into 9/11. For all the vile hatred spewing out of radical Islam, there should be a public outcry against it. We have demonstrations here by radical Islamists in the streets of NYC and you know what?? People stand in silence and WATCH! Sure they are allowed to protest, free speech gives them the right to trample our values...but C'mon...people need to wake up and at least stand up for their ideology. It's not happening enough if at all. I want the average Muslim on the street, the average Christian, average Jew, average everybody to condemn these hateful things instead of fearing the retribution of political correctness, it's not a Maoist pledge, it's called wishful thinking and wanting people to become aware of what the reality is. I listen all the time to people saying it's not a big deal, it's not a real threat, they don't really mean it, it's being blown out of proportion, we shouldn't criticize the,. they have issues too! What gets me ramped up is that this is the type of thinking that will get us all killed because once we let down our guard, you can bet terrorism will be back on our doorstep. That's just the nature of this particular beast.

i dont want to be flipant or make you feel that your feelings arent natural or real or whatever (i cant thnk of the right word!) but you feel like your religion and your way of life is under sttack, and after sept 11 you feel like you yourself are under threat, and it's understandable and no one should have to feel that threat, but can you even imagine waht that is like for Iraqi's? for the muslims there? day in day out people getting killed, curfews set on you, being told you're not meant to think like this or view the world like that, and i know many americas believe they are doing the right thing by bringing freedoms to Iraq and democracy, but you cannot force people to change over a short period of time. you felt threatened by one catastophic incident, that threat is alive for them every single day and unlike you, they dont have the facilities to be able to get over that, or the time.

I feel very sorry for the Iraqis, epecially the 11 million who voted FOR democracy and freedom and have extremists and insurgents fighting them each step of the way. I also felt very sorry for the millions who were murdered, maimed, raped and terrorized under Saddam Hussein. I agree with you one can't change people overnight but people can vote for change and that's exactly what 11 million Iraqis did. That change isn't going to come easy.

They voted for a coalition led by a Grand Ayatollah, they voted for Iraq to become an Islamic Republic similar to Iran, this is what they voted for Margo.

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Oh....my....God...you think the Iranian Revolution was a democratic vote????????????

What makes you think that I think this Margo? Read my post again:

Quote: They voted for a coalition led by a Grand Ayatollah, they voted for Iraq to become an Islamic Republic similar to Iran, this is what they voted for Margo.

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