Political Crossfire Forums

Plato & Socrates · Joined: 24 Dec 2005 Posts: 1744 Location: London

There is ample rubbish sprouted by both sides on this forum, to who is to blame. Why. When. Who. What. blah blah blah, it was them who started it. We've all heard it and unfortunately, we've all contributed to it, even me. :!oops:
Every now I like to clarify peoples positions on certain subjects and points. This post was inspired by Venom, for he belongs in the Israel can do absolutely no wrong group. Frustration with his stance has led me to attempt for him to "just have a logical look at some of his views" I'm not calling for his conversion to the pro-Palestinian side. This is not my goal. But for him to just try sometimes and be impartial. I'm picking out Venom as an example, but there are many others here I believe suffer from the same affliction.

It has long been a view of mine, and the consensus on the pro-Palestinian side on this forum. For whatever ones personal views are, of the Palestinians taking up arms against Israel, whether it is for self defense, legitimate resistance, mis-guided resistance in targeting innocent civilians or just plain old murder and confusing these acts as freedom fighting. The word given for all these acts are terrorism. 90% of pro-Palestinian supporters here, will condemn the unwarranted killing of Israeli civilians. As for the deaths of army personnel, I cannot say the figure of 90% will still be the same. But in a nut-shell most believe that Palestinian terrorism is not conducive to peace between Palestinian and Israel Jews.

So the rhetorical question I'll ask Is Israeli Land Annexation Conducive For Peace? Think carefully before answering. I'm not talking about any land which is inside what we know as Israel proper. But the land in the occupied territory's.

mendosan · Joined: 02 May 2006 Posts: 2496

Peace with whom, Hamas isn't going to recognise Israel so no Peace anyway, dosen't really matter if they grab land or not, However back to the question of course its not.

MoscowMatt · Joined: 16 Sep 2005 Posts: 1458 Location: UK / Hungary

Plato & Socrates wrote: There is ample rubbish sprouted by both sides on this forum, to who is to blame. Why. When. Who. What. blah blah blah, it was them who started it. We've all heard it and unfortunately, we've all contributed to it, even me. :!oops:
Every now I like to clarify peoples positions on certain subjects and points. This post was inspired by Venom, for he belongs in the Israel can do absolutely no wrong group. Frustration with his stance has led me to attempt for him to "just have a logical look at some of his views" I'm not calling for his conversion to the pro-Palestinian side. This is not my goal. But for him to just try sometimes and be impartial. I'm picking out Venom as an example, but there are many others here I believe suffer from the same affliction.

It has long been a view of mine, and the consensus on the pro-Palestinian side on this forum. For whatever ones personal views are, of the Palestinians taking up arms against Israel, whether it is for self defense, legitimate resistance, mis-guided resistance in targeting innocent civilians or just plain old murder and confusing these acts as freedom fighting. The word given for all these acts are terrorism. 90% of pro-Palestinian supporters here, will condemn the unwarranted killing of Israeli civilians. As for the deaths of army personnel, I cannot say the figure of 90% will still be the same. But in a nut-shell most believe that Palestinian terrorism is not conducive to peace between Palestinian and Israel Jews.

So the rhetorical question I'll ask Is Israeli Land Annexation Conducive For Peace? Think carefully before answering. I'm not talking about any land which is inside what we know as Israel proper. But the land in the occupied territory's.

How about asking 'is Israeli land annexation conducive for defence'?

The Comrade · Joined: 16 Jul 2006 Posts: 11435 Location: Zagreb

what piece of land are we talking about.

Venom · Joined: 06 Sep 2006 Posts: 807

I believe this isn't a very even question as land annexation or not as long as Israel exists there will be no peace as that as seen as stolen land as well.
As for your question I do not believe it really hurts or helps Israel in the long run because of the fact that they will be attacked regardless.

MoscowMatt · Joined: 16 Sep 2005 Posts: 1458 Location: UK / Hungary

Venom wrote: I believe this isn't a very even question as land annexation or not as long as Israel exists there will be no peace as that as seen as stolen land as well.
As for your question I do not believe it really hurts or helps Israel in the long run because of the fact that they will be attacked regardless.

Very true. Why is it that pro-Palestinians as demonstrated by the asking of questions like the above seem to think that the ball for peace is in Israels court? It's not!! It is firmly in that of the Palestinians.

Israel could lift sanctions, blockades and return land but they would STILL be attacked. This will never end until Palestinians all recognise Israel and learn to live with their neighbours in peace.

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 7750 Location: Petah Tikva

It is inevitable we have 200,000 citizens in the West Bank some territory is going to have to be annexed but I would wish we could work out some trades so that the Palestinians would gain some of their enclaves and bits of territory along the borders back giving them a boost of more than a 170,000 expatriot Palestinians to their ranks.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 15548 Location: On Earth

MoscowMatt wrote: How about asking 'is Israeli land annexation conducive for defence'?

:roll:

Seriously, when are you going to start openly criticizing Israeli actions instead of blankly saying "Israel is not perfect"?

As for the topic, it's clear that Israeli land annexation will fuel more violence, not the opposite.

Quote: Very true. Why is it that pro-Palestinians as demonstrated by the asking of questions like the above seem to think that the ball for peace is in Israels court? It's not!! It is firmly in that of the Palestinians.

Yeah, subject Palestinians to oppressive military rule and force them to recognize Israel. Sheesh, man. That's like whipping your best friend and telling him to kiss your feet at the same time. You think he'll do that?

Quote: Israel could lift sanctions, blockades and return land but they would STILL be attacked. This will never end until Palestinians all recognise Israel and learn to live with their neighbours in peace.

No. Israel lifts those blockades and I assure that there will be peace. It's because the Palestinians just want to live in peace. Of course, you have Palestinian extremists who want all of Palestine annexed, and Israeli extremists who want to have all Palestinians expelled. If you can tone both bilaterally, then you've got a path to peace.

Venom · Joined: 06 Sep 2006 Posts: 807

Saracen
the idea of the Palestinians living in peace revolves around the idea of Israel not existing. That's not even debatable due to the extremists groups even stating they want Israel gone, not just off of Palestinian land because they consider Israel palestinian land.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 15548 Location: On Earth

Venom wrote: Saracen
the idea of the Palestinians living in peace revolves around the idea of Israel not existing. That's not even debatable due to the extremists groups even stating they want Israel gone, not just off of Palestinian land because they consider Israel palestinian land.

Israeli extremists, even in the government, consider all of historic Palestine Israeli land. There are also extremists who consider everything from the Nile to the Euphrates to be part of Israel.

Picaro · Joined: 14 Jan 2006 Posts: 57

Jordan abandoned the West Bank to criminal gangs, Egypt of course abandoned Gaza to the same, so of course annexation and restoration of bandit country to productivity and law is conducive to peace. Whether the squatters and gangsters like it or not is irrelevant; they're the problem to begin with.

MoscowMatt · Joined: 16 Sep 2005 Posts: 1458 Location: UK / Hungary

Saracen wrote: MoscowMatt wrote: How about asking 'is Israeli land annexation conducive for defence'?

:roll:

Seriously, when are you going to start openly criticizing Israeli actions instead of blankly saying "Israel is not perfect"?

As for the topic, it's clear that Israeli land annexation will fuel more violence, not the opposite.

Quote: Very true. Why is it that pro-Palestinians as demonstrated by the asking of questions like the above seem to think that the ball for peace is in Israels court? It's not!! It is firmly in that of the Palestinians.

Yeah, subject Palestinians to oppressive military rule and force them to recognize Israel. Sheesh, man. That's like whipping your best friend and telling him to kiss your feet at the same time. You think he'll do that?

Quote: Israel could lift sanctions, blockades and return land but they would STILL be attacked. This will never end until Palestinians all recognise Israel and learn to live with their neighbours in peace.

Quote: Quote: No. Israel lifts those blockades and I assure that there will be peace. It's because the Palestinians just want to live in peace. Of course, you have Palestinian extremists who want all of Palestine annexed, and Israeli extremists who want to have all Palestinians expelled. If you can tone both bilaterally, then you've got a path to peace.

Quote: Yeah, subject Palestinians to oppressive military rule and force them to recognize Israel. Sheesh, man. That's like whipping your best friend and telling him to kiss your feet at the same time. You think he'll do that?

Well what do you expect if you subject your neighbours to terror attacks! :roll:
You can apply your analogy here as well!!

Quote: No. Israel lifts those blockades and I assure that there will be peace.

:rotf:

Now if you can return to the real world for a minute...!!!!! :lol:

Quote: Seriously, when are you going to start openly criticizing Israeli actions instead of blankly saying "Israel is not perfect"?

When I think they do something wrong and NOT when some pro-Palestinian suggests or tells me to! \/

Picaro · Joined: 14 Jan 2006 Posts: 57

The squatter mobs can't even feed themselves, or even run a moderate sized city, without breaking down into gang warfare, as already proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.

They would be much better off under Israeli law, and a massive birth control education program would be immensely beneficial, though the implementation of Chinese style family size restrictions and programs would likely be necessary for the first couple of decades.

Varyag · Joined: 17 Aug 2006 Posts: 397 Location: Melos

Israel should do whatever necessary for the integrity of its own state, the Palestinians have two large blocks of land (Gaza and the W Bank) with which to build their own state, however it seems that all Palestinians wish to do politically is provoke Israel into attacking them, which isnt the best domestic policy in terms of social and economic development. With nationalists like Fatah, the Palestinians at least tried to contruct a workable state, now with Islamic rganizations like Hamas and PIJ, whose concern isnt so much the well being of Palestine, but the broad muslim goal of the destruction of Israel, Palestine deserves its own existance less than ever.

If the Palestinians truly wish to see Palestine succeed as a nation state, nationalist organisations like Fatah must prevail, rather than the Islamic ones like Hamas and PIJ, which are bankrolled by states like Syria and Iran for their own purposes, to the detriment of the Palestinian nation and its inhabitants.

ALi* · Joined: 20 Sep 2006 Posts: 427 Location: Beirut

it is soooo simple:

its called LAND ANNEXATION ----> you annex a land that isnt urs!
how can that be conductive for peace?

agentkgb · Joined: 23 Aug 2006 Posts: 2241 Location: US

No, it's not conducive for peace. It won't reduce attacks on Israel and it won't reduce Israeli attacks, so how could it help bring peace?

The Comrade · Joined: 16 Jul 2006 Posts: 11435 Location: Zagreb

and what piece of land are we talking about?

agentkgb · Joined: 23 Aug 2006 Posts: 2241 Location: US

The Comrade wrote: and what piece of land are we talking about?
I don't think he's talking about any specific piece of land, though I'm not sure.
Plato & Socrates wrote: I'm not talking about any land which is inside what we know as Israel proper. But the land in the occupied territory's.

The Comrade · Joined: 16 Jul 2006 Posts: 11435 Location: Zagreb

agentkgb wrote: The Comrade wrote: and what piece of land are we talking about?
I don't think he's talking about any specific piece of land, though I'm not sure.
Plato & Socrates wrote: I'm not talking about any land which is inside what we know as Israel proper. But the land in the occupied territory's.

this isn't a yes or no question.

"is the sky blue" is a yes or no question"

"based on any infinite amount of circumstances that i will not tell you or allude to, does this questionable act lead to peace?"

this is not a yes or no question. is it right for Israel to go "f**k jordan, it's ours now"

no it is not.

is it right for Israel to go "gaza just lost it's border with Egypt because Egypt is letting weapons be smuggled in" the answer is yes it is okay. and will ultimately help out the peace process.

Picaro · Joined: 14 Jan 2006 Posts: 57

Jordan siezed the West Bank from Israel in the 1948 war; it wasn't part of the original partition plan. Israel got it back in 1967, and Jordan relinquished it's claim to it in 1988. Egypt has also relinquished responsibility for their territory in Gaza. It doesn't matter if it's the entire West Bank or the Gaza Strip; neither of those is claimed by anyone.

Quote: t is soooo simple:

its called LAND ANNEXATION ----> you annex a land that isnt urs!
how can that be conductive for peace?

They aren't going to be annexing land that isn't theirs. Where do you get that from?