Political Crossfire Forums

[toddytodd]

Shady wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: You know as well as I do that those embryonic stem cells will be killed whether they are used or not.

They wouldn't be killed if no one was making embryos exist outside of the womb in the first place.

But it happens. Why should we not use those them since we have them? If abortion WAS banned it would be a different debate, but since it's not, that's not the issue at stake here.

That makes perfect sense. I don't think gov't funding for this is acceptable, but let's face it - none of us really have much (if any) say on how our tax dollars are spent. However, let's assume we have total control over it. I wouldn't want to force someone who doesn't believe in this to give their money to it (nor would I personally want to offer the people who campaigned against it any help from it later down the road, but that's just me). That said, private funding should be allowed to fund this issue without interruption, from anyone, other than the private citizens who funded the research.
Also, the idea that stem cells gives people an automatic "pass" to have abortions is a stretch.

[Shady]

toddytodd wrote: Shady wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: You know as well as I do that those embryonic stem cells will be killed whether they are used or not.

They wouldn't be killed if no one was making embryos exist outside of the womb in the first place.

But it happens. Why should we not use those them since we have them? If abortion WAS banned it would be a different debate, but since it's not, that's not the issue at stake here.

That makes perfect sense. I don't think gov't funding for this is acceptable, but let's face it - none of us really have much (if any) say on how our tax dollars are spent. However, let's assume we have total control over it. I wouldn't want to force someone who doesn't believe in this to give their money to it (nor would I personally want to offer the people who campaigned against it any help from it later down the road, but that's just me). That said, private funding should be allowed to fund this issue without interruption, from anyone, other than the private citizens who funded the research.
Also, the idea that stem cells gives people an automatic "pass" to have abortions is a stretch.

I've said in this thread that I oppose federal funding for stem cell reseach, largely for reasons you have hit upon. However people in this thread are arguing that PRIVATE stem cell research should be prohibited-and that I cannot support.

[Shady]

perdidochas wrote: Shady wrote: perdidochas wrote: Shady wrote: This isn't directly related, but what are the people's opinions here on faith-based healing? I had an aunt that wouldn't let her children or any members of her immediate family visit doctor's because of her belief that if God wanted the disease to be cured he'd cure it himself. I presume the vast majority of Christians think differently, but for those more strict Christians (for lack of a better word) such as queasy and John, what's your opinion?

My opinion (not quite as "strict" as John or Cap'n) is that God gave us medical technology for a reason. We just have to use it right. IMHO, embryonic stem cell is not a correct use, because it involves killing human life.

Fair enough. How about transplats or blood transfusions? I know Jehovah's Witnesses refuse blood transfusions, is that a typical Christian viewpoint?

It's not a typical Christian viewpoint. Transplants and transfusions are the same as medicine. Now, if the transplant was an involuntary transplant from a live human, I woudl be against it. The same with transfusions.

But it seems to me (and I am not trying to be a p***k) that if you believe God controls everything, then you should simply let diseases run their course. Basically if God wants you to die the disease will claim you and if it's not your time he won't. It just seems to me that most christians would oppose medicine for that reason.

[John]

Shady wrote: John wrote: Shady wrote: This isn't directly related, but what are the people's opinions here on faith-based healing? I had an aunt that wouldn't let her children or any members of her immediate family visit doctor's because of her belief that if God wanted the disease to be cured he'd cure it himself. I presume the vast majority of Christians think differently, but for those more strict Christians (for lack of a better word) such as queasy and John, what's your opinion?


I believe God inspired men to come up with ways of helping people get over sickness. In other words....God can cure you through the use of medicine. It would be foolish to break your leg and refuse to have it placed in a cast with the opinion that God wanted your leg to heal He’d just heal it….maybe He wants you to be in a cast for 6 weeks.

But off this topic...I also understand that being admitted into a hospital is prolly the unhealthiest thing you can do. I personally don't put a lot of faith in the medical know how of most doctors. They are guessing most of the time in my opinion.

Interesting take on it. I'm not going to bother debating with you about your latter comments though, you are free to hold your own opinion.

So you don't believe that prayer alone will heal you? I guess I'm not entirely clear.

Of course He can and does. But that doesn't mean that He has to or that I can assume to know what method He wants to use or even if He wants to do it at all.

Sometimes an illness or handicap is for the better good for the person's soul.

[feederband]

John wrote: Sometimes an illness or handicap is for the better good for the person's soul.


Your killing me....

[toddytodd]

Shady wrote: toddytodd wrote: Shady wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: You know as well as I do that those embryonic stem cells will be killed whether they are used or not.

They wouldn't be killed if no one was making embryos exist outside of the womb in the first place.

But it happens. Why should we not use those them since we have them? If abortion WAS banned it would be a different debate, but since it's not, that's not the issue at stake here.

That makes perfect sense. I don't think gov't funding for this is acceptable, but let's face it - none of us really have much (if any) say on how our tax dollars are spent. However, let's assume we have total control over it. I wouldn't want to force someone who doesn't believe in this to give their money to it (nor would I personally want to offer the people who campaigned against it any help from it later down the road, but that's just me). That said, private funding should be allowed to fund this issue without interruption, from anyone, other than the private citizens who funded the research.
Also, the idea that stem cells gives people an automatic "pass" to have abortions is a stretch.

I've said in this thread that I oppose federal funding for stem cell reseach, largely for reasons you have hit upon. However people in this thread are arguing that PRIVATE stem cell research should be prohibited-and that I cannot support.

Nor can I. You and I are in agreement on this issue.

[perdidochas]

Shady wrote: perdidochas wrote: Shady wrote: perdidochas wrote: Shady wrote: This isn't directly related, but what are the people's opinions here on faith-based healing? I had an aunt that wouldn't let her children or any members of her immediate family visit doctor's because of her belief that if God wanted the disease to be cured he'd cure it himself. I presume the vast majority of Christians think differently, but for those more strict Christians (for lack of a better word) such as queasy and John, what's your opinion?

My opinion (not quite as "strict" as John or Cap'n) is that God gave us medical technology for a reason. We just have to use it right. IMHO, embryonic stem cell is not a correct use, because it involves killing human life.

Fair enough. How about transplats or blood transfusions? I know Jehovah's Witnesses refuse blood transfusions, is that a typical Christian viewpoint?

It's not a typical Christian viewpoint. Transplants and transfusions are the same as medicine. Now, if the transplant was an involuntary transplant from a live human, I woudl be against it. The same with transfusions.

But it seems to me (and I am not trying to be a p***k) that if you believe God controls everything, then you should simply let diseases run their course. Basically if God wants you to die the disease will claim you and if it's not your time he won't. It just seems to me that most christians would oppose medicine for that reason.

You're creating a strawman of Christian thought. First, it is not necessarily a Christian view that God controls everything. (yes, there are some Christians that believe that, but it's not a mainline view). I personally believe God interferes very little with the earth. He set it up, but He pretty much leaves it alone. Sure, He can control it, but He doesn't. Most things on earth are either random (weather, etc.) or due to humans (i.e crime, starvation, etc).

[toddytodd]

feederband wrote: John wrote: Sometimes an illness or handicap is for the better good for the person's soul.


Your killing me....

From my experience, this idea John hit upon (not trying to speak on his behalf by any means) is the belief of "...strife breeds strength and perseverance..." or the like.
I used to believe in it myself. Then I started to realize this can be used as justification for anything, and it seemed to loose its 'positive spin' so to speak.
Again, I suppose it is all in how you look at it

[feederband]

toddytodd wrote: feederband wrote: John wrote: Sometimes an illness or handicap is for the better good for the person's soul.


Your killing me....

From my experience, this idea John hit upon (not trying to speak on his behalf by any means) is the belief of "...strife breeds strength and perseverance..." or the like.
I used to believe in it myself. Then I started to realize this can be used as justification for anything, and it seemed to loose its 'positive spin' so to speak.
Again, I suppose it is all in how you look at it

Trust me I was alot better of a person without all my illnesses....I think health is everything in life...I wish mine was better..

[toddytodd]

feederband wrote: toddytodd wrote: feederband wrote: John wrote: Sometimes an illness or handicap is for the better good for the person's soul.


Your killing me....

From my experience, this idea John hit upon (not trying to speak on his behalf by any means) is the belief of "...strife breeds strength and perseverance..." or the like.
I used to believe in it myself. Then I started to realize this can be used as justification for anything, and it seemed to loose its 'positive spin' so to speak.
Again, I suppose it is all in how you look at it

Trust me I was alot better of a person without all my illnesses....I think health is everything in life...I wish mine was better..

If a sick person wants to believe in God to 'help them through it', more power to them. But we all know it doesn't work that way for everyone.
To say to a sick person it is better for your soul for you to be physically ill seems to be an arrogant way of 'witnessing' I think.

[Shady]

perdidochas wrote: Shady wrote: perdidochas wrote: Shady wrote: perdidochas wrote: Shady wrote: This isn't directly related, but what are the people's opinions here on faith-based healing? I had an aunt that wouldn't let her children or any members of her immediate family visit doctor's because of her belief that if God wanted the disease to be cured he'd cure it himself. I presume the vast majority of Christians think differently, but for those more strict Christians (for lack of a better word) such as queasy and John, what's your opinion?

My opinion (not quite as "strict" as John or Cap'n) is that God gave us medical technology for a reason. We just have to use it right. IMHO, embryonic stem cell is not a correct use, because it involves killing human life.

Fair enough. How about transplats or blood transfusions? I know Jehovah's Witnesses refuse blood transfusions, is that a typical Christian viewpoint?

It's not a typical Christian viewpoint. Transplants and transfusions are the same as medicine. Now, if the transplant was an involuntary transplant from a live human, I woudl be against it. The same with transfusions.

But it seems to me (and I am not trying to be a p***k) that if you believe God controls everything, then you should simply let diseases run their course. Basically if God wants you to die the disease will claim you and if it's not your time he won't. It just seems to me that most christians would oppose medicine for that reason.

You're creating a strawman of Christian thought. First, it is not necessarily a Christian view that God controls everything. (yes, there are some Christians that believe that, but it's not a mainline view). I personally believe God interferes very little with the earth. He set it up, but He pretty much leaves it alone. Sure, He can control it, but He doesn't. Most things on earth are either random (weather, etc.) or due to humans (i.e crime, starvation, etc).

Well I was look at it more from a queasy perspective as from what I can tell his views are somewhat stronger then your average christian.

[Shady]

John wrote: Shady wrote: John wrote: Shady wrote: This isn't directly related, but what are the people's opinions here on faith-based healing? I had an aunt that wouldn't let her children or any members of her immediate family visit doctor's because of her belief that if God wanted the disease to be cured he'd cure it himself. I presume the vast majority of Christians think differently, but for those more strict Christians (for lack of a better word) such as queasy and John, what's your opinion?


I believe God inspired men to come up with ways of helping people get over sickness. In other words....God can cure you through the use of medicine. It would be foolish to break your leg and refuse to have it placed in a cast with the opinion that God wanted your leg to heal He’d just heal it….maybe He wants you to be in a cast for 6 weeks.

But off this topic...I also understand that being admitted into a hospital is prolly the unhealthiest thing you can do. I personally don't put a lot of faith in the medical know how of most doctors. They are guessing most of the time in my opinion.

Interesting take on it. I'm not going to bother debating with you about your latter comments though, you are free to hold your own opinion.

So you don't believe that prayer alone will heal you? I guess I'm not entirely clear.

Of course He can and does. But that doesn't mean that He has to or that I can assume to know what method He wants to use or even if He wants to do it at all.

Sometimes an illness or handicap is for the better good for the person's soul.

Hmm, I guess that's reasonable. I was under the impression that medicine was thought by some christians to be evil and satanic...well that's what I got from my aunt anyway. /shrugs

[perdidochas]

Shady wrote: perdidochas wrote: Shady wrote: perdidochas wrote: Shady wrote: perdidochas wrote: Shady wrote: This isn't directly related, but what are the people's opinions here on faith-based healing? I had an aunt that wouldn't let her children or any members of her immediate family visit doctor's because of her belief that if God wanted the disease to be cured he'd cure it himself. I presume the vast majority of Christians think differently, but for those more strict Christians (for lack of a better word) such as queasy and John, what's your opinion?

My opinion (not quite as "strict" as John or Cap'n) is that God gave us medical technology for a reason. We just have to use it right. IMHO, embryonic stem cell is not a correct use, because it involves killing human life.

Fair enough. How about transplats or blood transfusions? I know Jehovah's Witnesses refuse blood transfusions, is that a typical Christian viewpoint?

It's not a typical Christian viewpoint. Transplants and transfusions are the same as medicine. Now, if the transplant was an involuntary transplant from a live human, I woudl be against it. The same with transfusions.

But it seems to me (and I am not trying to be a p***k) that if you believe God controls everything, then you should simply let diseases run their course. Basically if God wants you to die the disease will claim you and if it's not your time he won't. It just seems to me that most christians would oppose medicine for that reason.

You're creating a strawman of Christian thought. First, it is not necessarily a Christian view that God controls everything. (yes, there are some Christians that believe that, but it's not a mainline view). I personally believe God interferes very little with the earth. He set it up, but He pretty much leaves it alone. Sure, He can control it, but He doesn't. Most things on earth are either random (weather, etc.) or due to humans (i.e crime, starvation, etc).

Well I was look at it more from a queasy perspective as from what I can tell his views are somewhat stronger then your average christian.

My views are strong. Extreme, no, strong, yes. If I believed that God controlled everything every minute, I would soon reject God. That doesnt' make sense, hence God must not control everything every minute. IMHO, if God was a micromanager, He wouldn't have given us free will.

[Angelicus]

Shady wrote: John wrote: Shady wrote: John wrote: Shady wrote: This isn't directly related, but what are the people's opinions here on faith-based healing? I had an aunt that wouldn't let her children or any members of her immediate family visit doctor's because of her belief that if God wanted the disease to be cured he'd cure it himself. I presume the vast majority of Christians think differently, but for those more strict Christians (for lack of a better word) such as queasy and John, what's your opinion?


I believe God inspired men to come up with ways of helping people get over sickness. In other words....God can cure you through the use of medicine. It would be foolish to break your leg and refuse to have it placed in a cast with the opinion that God wanted your leg to heal He’d just heal it….maybe He wants you to be in a cast for 6 weeks.

But off this topic...I also understand that being admitted into a hospital is prolly the unhealthiest thing you can do. I personally don't put a lot of faith in the medical know how of most doctors. They are guessing most of the time in my opinion.

Interesting take on it. I'm not going to bother debating with you about your latter comments though, you are free to hold your own opinion.

So you don't believe that prayer alone will heal you? I guess I'm not entirely clear.

Of course He can and does. But that doesn't mean that He has to or that I can assume to know what method He wants to use or even if He wants to do it at all.

Sometimes an illness or handicap is for the better good for the person's soul.

Hmm, I guess that's reasonable. I was under the impression that medicine was thought by some christians to be evil and satanic...well that's what I got from my aunt anyway. /shrugs

No shady, in fact, there are only a handful of far out, extreme, marginally what one would call, "christian" sects that teach medicine is evil.

Besides Luke was a physician, obviously doctors aren't too bad, if Christ can choose one to be one of his disciple's.

Something I've learned from my own struggles with huntingtons and diabetes is that sometimes, illness helps us to grow in our walk with God. At least in my case it has, I was at one time the very independent rebellious type, I had it in my head that I would rely on me and me alone.

And to be honest, I had very little time for God back then.

Now, since I've been sick, I've had to learn to lean on God and litterally let him carry me through some things, sometimes. And sometimes being ill, has even opened doors for me, too be a witness for Christ, when otherwise those doors would have been closed. Such as in talking with nurses, doctors etc...who ask me about my illness and how it affects my faith.

For a long long time when I first got sick, I was angry at God, I went through the whole "why'd you allow this to happen to me God" etc......Untill I realized I was being selfish and demaning something from God, that he never promised me to begin with. A tommorow.

Would I like to be cured, sure obviously who wouldn't, but will I be mad at God if I'm not. No.

My reward is in his kingdom, not here on earth, and thats what really matters anyways.

[LetsGetReal]

Using aborted fetuses for monetary gain is quite sick and all who would agree really need to get a morality check.

[Saracen]

Wait. Stem cell research doesn't involve killing little babies, does it? If it does, I'm against it. If it involves using stem cells to create products that are useful for people who have hormone deficiencies et al. WITHOUT killing babies or altering genetic information in a harmful or needless way, then I'm all for it.

[toddytodd]

Saracen wrote: Wait. Stem cell research doesn't involve killing little babies, does it? If it does, I'm against it. If it involves using stem cells to create products that are useful for people who have hormone deficiencies et al. WITHOUT killing babies or altering genetic information in a harmful or needless way, then I'm all for it.

I don't recall every seeing babies harvested strictly for stem cells. From what I have seen (admittedly I am not a doctor), stem cells are taken from a fetus that is a few days old, usually from IVFs that are no longer necessary and would be disposed of anyway.
I have also seen that cells can be taken from the umbilical cord after a baby is born and used with very similar results.

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: I presume the vast majority of Christians think differently, but for those more strict Christians (for lack of a better word) such as queasy and John, what's your opinion?

I don't think there is anything wrong with going to a doctor when you are sick.

:lol:

Farming and grinding up babies to chase fool's gold is another matter.

[John]

Shady wrote: John wrote: Shady wrote: John wrote: Shady wrote: This isn't directly related, but what are the people's opinions here on faith-based healing? I had an aunt that wouldn't let her children or any members of her immediate family visit doctor's because of her belief that if God wanted the disease to be cured he'd cure it himself. I presume the vast majority of Christians think differently, but for those more strict Christians (for lack of a better word) such as queasy and John, what's your opinion?


I believe God inspired men to come up with ways of helping people get over sickness. In other words....God can cure you through the use of medicine. It would be foolish to break your leg and refuse to have it placed in a cast with the opinion that God wanted your leg to heal He’d just heal it….maybe He wants you to be in a cast for 6 weeks.

But off this topic...I also understand that being admitted into a hospital is prolly the unhealthiest thing you can do. I personally don't put a lot of faith in the medical know how of most doctors. They are guessing most of the time in my opinion.

Interesting take on it. I'm not going to bother debating with you about your latter comments though, you are free to hold your own opinion.

So you don't believe that prayer alone will heal you? I guess I'm not entirely clear.

Of course He can and does. But that doesn't mean that He has to or that I can assume to know what method He wants to use or even if He wants to do it at all.

Sometimes an illness or handicap is for the better good for the person's soul.

Hmm, I guess that's reasonable. I was under the impression that medicine was thought by some christians to be evil and satanic...well that's what I got from my aunt anyway. /shrugs

Well, tell your aunt that St. Luke (the one who wrote the Gospel of Luke) was a physician.


BTW...has the Lord taken care of your aunt and her kids without doctors?

[feederband]

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: I presume the vast majority of Christians think differently, but for those more strict Christians (for lack of a better word) such as queasy and John, what's your opinion?

I don't think there is anything wrong with going to a doctor when you are sick.

:lol:

Farming and grinding up babies to chase fool's gold is another matter.

Fools gold? :roll:

If you had some of these diseases they are trying to cure with this research you would think different...