Political Crossfire Forums

unclesamual · Joined: 25 Oct 2006 Posts: 43

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0v1To8B4_A

A very telling debate between a younger Ehud Olmert as a Knesset member and Meir Kahane. Ehud Olmert admits that an Arab "considerable force in Israel" worries him (differentiation based on race/religion). In other words, they should be relegated to not be a considerable force in Israel. Kahane highlights some of the policies of Israel. Any Jewish person can gain citizenship if requested, as opposed to others. 94% of Israel is state land of which Arabs in the country can not own. He talks about the renting problem.

To put the video above into farther context. Meir Kahane was assassinated in New York in 1990. His ideology is banned now and considered racist, and groups/individuals related to him terrorists. He is a founder of the Jewish Defense League who attempts things like assassinating an Arab U.S. Congressman. Even so, former Kach members (the party Kahane founded) are still active in things like the Hilltop Youth.

Plato & Socrates · Joined: 24 Dec 2005 Posts: 1744 Location: London

unclesamual wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0v1To8B4_A

A very telling debate between a younger Ehud Olmert as a Knesset member and Meir Kahane. Ehud Olmert admits that an Arab "considerable force in Israel" worries him (differentiation based on race/religion). In other words, they should be relegated to not be a considerable force in Israel. Kahane highlights some of the policies of Israel. Any Jewish person can gain citizenship if requested, as opposed to others. 94% of Israel is state land of which Arabs in the country can not own. He talks about the renting problem.

To put the video above into farther context. Meir Kahane was assassinated in New York in 1990. His ideology is banned now and considered racist, and groups/individuals related to him terrorists. He is a founder of the Jewish Defense League who attempts things like assassinating an Arab U.S. Congressman. Even so, former Kach members (the party Kahane founded) are still active in things like the Hilltop Youth.

I've mentioned so many times on this forum about organisations like the JNF and the policies of the state of Israel, when it comes to appropriating land to who in Israel. 99 times out of 100 the question is ignored or brushed over.
These policies are way beyond racist. This kind of law belongs in former South Africa, not a so called democracy called Israel. As for Olmert, this bastard was the top man in Jerusalem for years. He has played the role of overseer in the demographic displacement of Arab Jerusalemites, with Jews. Everything from allowing Jewish squatters to claim Arab houses because they are allegedly empty. :roll: To his baby of the E1 project.

Don't forget, all this is done to fight terrorism and for security :lol: and America turns a blind eye to these practices. It's a total f**king disgrace, under the defense and justification of having a Jewish state. If we white Brits done something like this and prevented non-english white citizens from buying land, we would be vilified. The Israel Jews do this and hardly anybody says a word, in fear of being labeled a anti-semite.

mendosan · Joined: 02 May 2006 Posts: 2501

Quote: The Israel Jews do this and hardly anybody says a word, in fear of being labeled a anti-semite.

I do sympathies with you P&S its just white Brits haven't been vilified and persecuted for centuries just because of there race, however you are right the state of Israel does and has carried out racist policy's, but so did so many other states in history in order to create or maintain "ethnic" majorities the prime example being Turkey (thats not an excuse for Israels actions rather an attempt to establish context), IMO Israel should never have taken Jerusalem its more trouble than its worth.

MoscowMatt · Joined: 16 Sep 2005 Posts: 1458 Location: UK / Hungary

Plato & Socrates wrote:
Don't forget, all this is done to fight terrorism and for security :lol:

Yes you can laugh at that but ignoring rights and wrongs for a moment would you not agree though that removing the cause of terror attacks from your country (i.e Arabs in this case) is the most effective method of security that could be used?

mendosan · Joined: 02 May 2006 Posts: 2501

MoscowMatt wrote: Plato & Socrates wrote:
Don't forget, all this is done to fight terrorism and for security :lol:

Yes you can laugh at that but ignoring rights and wrongs for a moment would you not agree though that removing the cause of terror attacks from your country (i.e Arabs in this case) is the most effective method of security that could be used?

It is the most effective but its morally wrong, its the equivalent of saying in order to avoid another 7/7 in the UK we remove all Muslims.

MoscowMatt · Joined: 16 Sep 2005 Posts: 1458 Location: UK / Hungary

mendosan wrote: MoscowMatt wrote: Plato & Socrates wrote:
Don't forget, all this is done to fight terrorism and for security :lol:

Yes you can laugh at that but ignoring rights and wrongs for a moment would you not agree though that removing the cause of terror attacks from your country (i.e Arabs in this case) is the most effective method of security that could be used?

It is the most effective but its morally wrong, its the equivalent of saying in order to avoid another 7/7 in the UK we remove all Muslims.

Yes indeed I agree but then I can't help but think how morally wrong would it be to let them stay knowing that more terror attacks are inevitable? After all Al'Qaeda have made Britain terror target number 1 and the Taliban have pledged to attack Western Europe too?

At the moment I would say the vast majority of people in Britain would be against such extreme measures, and rightly so, BUT and this is the thing. If we were to endure a similar level of attacks as Israel has suffered would that view swing the other way?

mendosan · Joined: 02 May 2006 Posts: 2501

MoscowMatt wrote: mendosan wrote: MoscowMatt wrote: Plato & Socrates wrote:
Don't forget, all this is done to fight terrorism and for security :lol:

Yes you can laugh at that but ignoring rights and wrongs for a moment would you not agree though that removing the cause of terror attacks from your country (i.e Arabs in this case) is the most effective method of security that could be used?

It is the most effective but its morally wrong, its the equivalent of saying in order to avoid another 7/7 in the UK we remove all Muslims.

Yes indeed I agree but then I can't help but think how morally wrong would it be to let them stay knowing that more terror attacks are inevitable? After all Al'Qaeda have made Britain terror target number 1 and the Taliban have pledged to attack Western Europe too?

At the moment I would say the vast majority of people in Britain would be against such extreme measures, and rightly so, BUT and this is the thing. If we were to endure a similar level of attacks as Israel has suffered would that view swing the other way?

I hope not, if all Irish had been expelled because of the IRA I wouldn't have a British flag under my name.

bunny · Joined: 14 Oct 2006 Posts: 584

MoscowMatt wrote:

Yes indeed I agree but then I can't help but think how morally wrong would it be to let them stay knowing that more terror attacks are inevitable?

Yeah, you should ship them all out, start a propaganda war against them, and if all else fails, burn them in ovens...

(sound familiar?)

agentkgb · Joined: 23 Aug 2006 Posts: 2241 Location: US

MoscowMatt wrote: mendosan wrote: MoscowMatt wrote: Plato & Socrates wrote:
Don't forget, all this is done to fight terrorism and for security :lol:

Yes you can laugh at that but ignoring rights and wrongs for a moment would you not agree though that removing the cause of terror attacks from your country (i.e Arabs in this case) is the most effective method of security that could be used?

It is the most effective but its morally wrong, its the equivalent of saying in order to avoid another 7/7 in the UK we remove all Muslims.

Yes indeed I agree but then I can't help but think how morally wrong would it be to let them stay knowing that more terror attacks are inevitable? After all Al'Qaeda have made Britain terror target number 1 and the Taliban have pledged to attack Western Europe too?

At the moment I would say the vast majority of people in Britain would be against such extreme measures, and rightly so, BUT and this is the thing. If we were to endure a similar level of attacks as Israel has suffered would that view swing the other way?
So if enough terrorist attacks occurred, the UK should ship out Muslims because most terrorist (using the common definition of the term) attacks are done by Muslims? Maybe since most murderers are men and many murders occur in the UK they should send all the men out?
Yes, that was an extreme example, but in uses the same logic.

Plato & Socrates · Joined: 24 Dec 2005 Posts: 1744 Location: London

MoscowMatt wrote: mendosan wrote: MoscowMatt wrote: Plato & Socrates wrote:
Don't forget, all this is done to fight terrorism and for security :lol:

Yes you can laugh at that but ignoring rights and wrongs for a moment would you not agree though that removing the cause of terror attacks from your country (i.e Arabs in this case) is the most effective method of security that could be used?

It is the most effective but its morally wrong, its the equivalent of saying in order to avoid another 7/7 in the UK we remove all Muslims.

Yes indeed I agree but then I can't help but think how morally wrong would it be to let them stay knowing that more terror attacks are inevitable? After all Al'Qaeda have made Britain terror target number 1 and the Taliban have pledged to attack Western Europe too?

At the moment I would say the vast majority of people in Britain would be against such extreme measures, and rightly so, BUT and this is the thing. If we were to endure a similar level of attacks as Israel has suffered would that view swing the other way?

Moscowmatt, I'm shocked. :shock: This is the same kind of thinking, of when bigots like the BNP, Combat 18 and other far right groups say, If we get rid of the Jews or Blacks or who-ever, they'll be no more problem. Go back to 1933 Germany. To solve all of Germany's ill's, the Jews were seen as part of the problem. There is absolutely no moral justification for Israels demographic, land acquisitions and distribution policy. It has all the hallmarks and stench of the worse kind of racism. Even a 1% attempt at trying to explain away or find some sort of reasoning behind these Israeli policies is morally reprehensible.

When I accuse Israeli policies like this of being neo-apartheid, I'm told Israel has no apartheid like policies. :roll: As for the level of attacks Israel has endured? These sickening policies were well in place and on the statute book, long before Hamas, suicide bombings, Hezbollah or any intifada you would like to mention. Anybody with half a brain has always known that the Israel Zionist project has always been a demographic one. It has always been taking place, whilst Israel screams she is fighting for her survival and against terrorism. But denies the things she does is a contributing factor. But dont worry Moscowmatt, defend away as usual. :P

bunny · Joined: 14 Oct 2006 Posts: 584

Plato & Socrates wrote:

Moscowmatt, I'm shocked. :shock: This is the same kind of thinking, of when bigots like the BNP, Combat 18 and other far right groups say, If we get rid of the Jews or Blacks or who-ever, they'll be no more problem. Go back to 1933 Germany. To solve all of Germany's ill's, the Jews were seen as part of the problem. There is absolutely no moral justification for Israels demographic, land acquisitions and distribution policy. It has all the hallmarks and stench of the worse kind of racism. Even a 1% attempt at trying to explain away or find some sort of reasoning behind these Israeli policies is morally reprehensible.

When I accuse Israeli policies like this of being neo-apartheid, I'm told Israel has no apartheid like policies. :roll: As for the level of attacks Israel has endured? These sickening policies were well in place and on the statute book, long before Hamas, suicide bombings, Hezbollah or any intifada you would like to mention. Anybody with half a brain has always known that the Israel Zionist project has always been a demographic one. It has always been taking place, whilst Israel screams she is fighting for her survival and against terrorism. But denies the things she does is a contributing factor. But dont worry Moscowmatt, defend away as usual. :P

+1

I can't believe some of the veiled racism & bigotry that is allowed to exist on these boards.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 15567 Location: On Earth

bunny wrote: Plato & Socrates wrote:

Moscowmatt, I'm shocked. :shock: This is the same kind of thinking, of when bigots like the BNP, Combat 18 and other far right groups say, If we get rid of the Jews or Blacks or who-ever, they'll be no more problem. Go back to 1933 Germany. To solve all of Germany's ill's, the Jews were seen as part of the problem. There is absolutely no moral justification for Israels demographic, land acquisitions and distribution policy. It has all the hallmarks and stench of the worse kind of racism. Even a 1% attempt at trying to explain away or find some sort of reasoning behind these Israeli policies is morally reprehensible.

When I accuse Israeli policies like this of being neo-apartheid, I'm told Israel has no apartheid like policies. :roll: As for the level of attacks Israel has endured? These sickening policies were well in place and on the statute book, long before Hamas, suicide bombings, Hezbollah or any intifada you would like to mention. Anybody with half a brain has always known that the Israel Zionist project has always been a demographic one. It has always been taking place, whilst Israel screams she is fighting for her survival and against terrorism. But denies the things she does is a contributing factor. But dont worry Moscowmatt, defend away as usual. :P

+1

I can't believe some of the veiled racism & bigotry that is allowed to exist on these boards.

+2.

MoscowMatt · Joined: 16 Sep 2005 Posts: 1458 Location: UK / Hungary

Plato & Socrates wrote: MoscowMatt wrote: mendosan wrote: MoscowMatt wrote: Plato & Socrates wrote:
Don't forget, all this is done to fight terrorism and for security :lol:

Yes you can laugh at that but ignoring rights and wrongs for a moment would you not agree though that removing the cause of terror attacks from your country (i.e Arabs in this case) is the most effective method of security that could be used?

It is the most effective but its morally wrong, its the equivalent of saying in order to avoid another 7/7 in the UK we remove all Muslims.

Yes indeed I agree but then I can't help but think how morally wrong would it be to let them stay knowing that more terror attacks are inevitable? After all Al'Qaeda have made Britain terror target number 1 and the Taliban have pledged to attack Western Europe too?

At the moment I would say the vast majority of people in Britain would be against such extreme measures, and rightly so, BUT and this is the thing. If we were to endure a similar level of attacks as Israel has suffered would that view swing the other way?

Moscowmatt, I'm shocked. :shock: This is the same kind of thinking, of when bigots like the BNP, Combat 18 and other far right groups say, If we get rid of the Jews or Blacks or who-ever, they'll be no more problem. Go back to 1933 Germany. To solve all of Germany's ill's, the Jews were seen as part of the problem. There is absolutely no moral justification for Israels demographic, land acquisitions and distribution policy. It has all the hallmarks and stench of the worse kind of racism. Even a 1% attempt at trying to explain away or find some sort of reasoning behind these Israeli policies is morally reprehensible.

When I accuse Israeli policies like this of being neo-apartheid, I'm told Israel has no apartheid like policies. :roll: As for the level of attacks Israel has endured? These sickening policies were well in place and on the statute book, long before Hamas, suicide bombings, Hezbollah or any intifada you would like to mention. Anybody with half a brain has always known that the Israel Zionist project has always been a demographic one. It has always been taking place, whilst Israel screams she is fighting for her survival and against terrorism. But denies the things she does is a contributing factor. But dont worry Moscowmatt, defend away as usual. :P

Oh deary me!! Let me make it blindingly obvious for you guys!!

The talk is that Israel is wrong to expel Arabs from it's lands blah, blah.
right with me so far. Ok then read what I wrote

Quote: Yes you can laugh at that but ignoring rights and wrongs for a moment would you not agree though that removing the cause of terror attacks from your country (i.e Arabs in this case) is the most effective method of security that could be used

I'm suggesting that removing the cause of terror totally is the most effective security measure which anyone can see it is. I specifically mentioned that the morality of such an event was not to be taken into consideration here. Would I do that if I agreed with this initiative?

Quote: It is the most effective but its morally wrong, its the equivalent of saying in order to avoid another 7/7 in the UK we remove all Muslims

See I was agreed with.

But the poster said it was morally wrong to which I said

Quote: Yes indeed I agree

I then went on to question the morality of leaving your countries own civilians open to a clear and present danger! Is this not a reasonable concern.

Quote: At the moment I would say the vast majority of people in Britain would be against such extreme measures, and rightly so,

Got it yet????????

Quote: Moscowmatt, I'm shocked. :shock: This is the same kind of thinking, of when bigots like the BNP, Combat 18 and other far right groups say, If we get rid of the Jews or Blacks or who-ever, they'll be no more problem.

Rubbish analogy. BNP etc hate people based on race not wether they are a threat to the indiginous population.

I put the people of MY country first who would not. If another group of people are killing MY people left right and center would it not be unreasonable to want to stop it by any means necessary.

Oh never mind if hundreds of British civilians die each month just as long as we did not deport people. You make comparisons with Hitler on that thinking. What over emotive bull!!! He KILLED people. All we would have to do is deport them. At the moment I think that is not necessary, but in the event people were dieing week in week out then I think this country has a duty to protect it's OWN people first. Now if you cannot understand that then you really are insane!!

At the end of the day I asked a very legitimate question which is would British tolerance of Muslims change if we were constantly being killed by them. Of course you avoided answering by going off on some racism tangent. Just answer the question god damn it. Or are you uncomfortable with the truth given your standpoint?

MoscowMatt · Joined: 16 Sep 2005 Posts: 1458 Location: UK / Hungary

Just a further thought in relation to my point. Perhaps people can tell me waht happened to all the Germans who were living in Britain in World War II? Nobody complained about that at the time!

bunny · Joined: 14 Oct 2006 Posts: 584

MoscowMatt wrote: Just a further thought in relation to my point. Perhaps people can tell me waht happened to all the Germans who were living in Britain in World War II? Nobody complained about that at the time!

Germans aren't a race - Arabs are....

MoscowMatt · Joined: 16 Sep 2005 Posts: 1458 Location: UK / Hungary

bunny wrote: MoscowMatt wrote: Just a further thought in relation to my point. Perhaps people can tell me waht happened to all the Germans who were living in Britain in World War II? Nobody complained about that at the time!

Germans aren't a race - Arabs are....

Oh so that's perfectly ok then!! :roll:

the sane voice · Joined: 07 Sep 2006 Posts: 2512

Plato & Socrates wrote:
These policies are way beyond racist. This kind of law belongs in former South Africa, not a so called democracy called Israel
ill bet you still cant prove its racist,and not done on the basis those people have a goal to "free palestine" from jews.

Plato & Socrates · Joined: 24 Dec 2005 Posts: 1744 Location: London

MoscowMatt wrote:

Rubbish analogy. BNP etc hate people based on race not wether they are a threat to the indiginous population.

I put the people of MY country first who would not. If another group of people are killing MY people left right and center would it not be unreasonable to want to stop it by any means necessary.

Oh never mind if hundreds of British civilians die each month just as long as we did not deport people. You make comparisons with Hitler on that thinking. What over emotive bull!!! He KILLED people. All we would have to do is deport them. At the moment I think that is not necessary, but in the event people were dieing week in week out then I think this country has a duty to protect it's OWN people first. Now if you cannot understand that then you really are insane!!

At the end of the day I asked a very legitimate question which is would British tolerance of Muslims change if we were constantly being killed by them. Of course you avoided answering by going off on some racism tangent. Just answer the question god damn it. Or are you uncomfortable with the truth given your standpoint?

Back to front yet again Moscowmatt. We Brits are a practical people. We gave up the Empire & colonial practices, because they are more trouble than they are worth. People like you perpetrate the biggest bulls**t of the late 20th and early 21st century, and that is of Israels eternal innocence in this conflict. Your British question of Muslim tolerance if we Brits were killed is wrong. You might of had a point if your analogy was correct. We Brits invited the Muslims in. The Jews came from outside as a minority, and decided to declare a state for themselves as a minority. Your question should have been "what would the British do when killed by Indians in India?" Well you know what we did, and history has judged us harshly and rightly so.

We Brits faced countless battles to maintain our colonies and in the end it got to much, plus the morality of us having colonies and ruling over others with no say became unsustainable. This is a lesson the Jews of Israel have yet to learn. You can make any excuse you want Moscowmatt. But nothing can mask the disgusting truth of Israels land allocation policies, nor the truth of there demographic project.

the sane voice wrote: Plato & Socrates wrote:
These policies are way beyond racist. This kind of law belongs in former South Africa, not a so called democracy called Israel
ill bet you still cant prove its racist,and not done on the basis those people have a goal to "free palestine" from jews.

What next? :lol: No its not racist is it the insane voice. :roll: Delude yourself further my friend. Does it burn your soul so much to admit such a blatently obvious fact? If this sits uncomfortably with your blinkered view of Israel. Then there is'nt much I can do about that.

MoscowMatt · Joined: 16 Sep 2005 Posts: 1458 Location: UK / Hungary

Plato & Socrates wrote: . The Jews came from outside as a minority, and decided to declare a state for themselves as a minority.

Ah thanks for putting me right. For a minute there I thought the UN created the state of Israel with the area being chosen because it was the ancient home of the Jews, who were there long before Islam, and Muslims even existed!! :lol:

then I thought that having done this Israel immediately found itself attacked from pretty much all sides and have been trying to defend themselves ever since.

Damn if only you had taught me history instead of all those books written by professors!! :lol:

Plato & Socrates · Joined: 24 Dec 2005 Posts: 1744 Location: London

MoscowMatt wrote: Plato & Socrates wrote: . The Jews came from outside as a minority, and decided to declare a state for themselves as a minority.

Ah thanks for putting me right. For a minute there I thought the UN created the state of Israel with the area being chosen because it was the ancient home of the Jews, who were there long before Islam, and Muslims even existed!! :lol:

then I thought that having done this Israel immediately found itself attacked from pretty much all sides and have been trying to defend themselves ever since.

Damn if only you had taught me history instead of all those books written by professors!! :lol:

Moscowmatt I'm a realist. Do not for one second believe that I wish a Jewish state not to exist. Being attacked from all sides is not a explanation of guilt or innocence. We Brits were attacked from all sides in Africa and Asia, does that mean we were the innocent party? As for this pick and mix, choose what parts of the U.N we like and the rest we disregard. Shove it! The U.N has said for Israel to get out of the occupied territory's and yet she refuses to listen and puts more diaspora Jews in those areas as we speak, whilst restricting the growth and expansion of Palestinians. I'm sorry :!oops: Israel does no wrong. :roll:

Please don't make me laugh. :lol: Hypocrisy is a horrible trait. :wink: I'm Anglo Saxon, does that mean I have the right to go back to Denmark-Northern Germany and claim back the land of my forefathers? So why do people like you give this ancient home of the Jewish people bulls**t, as justification for Israels actions? The Palestinians have no history of driving Jews off there lands, or asking anybody to do it on there behalf, for there benefit. The Jewish people stance runs out of morality from the first opening argument. So all you have left is biblical nonsense to fall back on, and we all know where that leads.