Political Crossfire Forums

unclesamual · Joined: 25 Oct 2006 Posts: 43

Quote: If they arent a country, arent a seperatist group, then they have no status as militants or soldiers and are only armed criminals. Thus they have already broken a law. They cannot be both ways, they are either a para-military force under the arm of the government, or they are a group in rebellion, or they are simply criminals.

And the armed settlers of the occupied territories are what? A group in rebellion, a para-military force under the arm of the government, or criminals?

Quote: The Israeli army has in recent months had strict orders not to shoot at armed Jewish settlers even if they are opening fire on Palestinians, a senior commander in the paramilitary Border Police disclosed Thursday to the commission probing the Hebron massacre.

Meir Tayar, chief superintendent of the Border Police force in Hebron, surprised the five-member panel when he said there were special "open-fire" rules concerning settlers. The panel is investigating the Feb. 25 massacre in which militant settler Baruch Goldstein shot and killed 30 Muslims as they prayed at the Tomb of the Patriarchs in Hebron.

Tayar's testimony, which stirred controversy here, seemed to provide fresh evidence that armed, militant Jewish settlers have been permitted free rein in the streets. The testimony may further undercut the army's claim that the massacre was the work of an isolated lunatic and could not have been prevented.
http://www-tech.mit.edu/V114/N13/israel.13w.html

Quote: Israeli settlers in the Occupied Territories have stepped up attacks against Palestinians and are waging a campaign of intimidation against international and Israeli human rights activists. Their aim is to eliminate the presence of witnesses to their attacks, thereby depriving the local Palestinian population of this only form of limited protection.
http://news.amnesty.org/index/ENGMDE150992004

Quote: The team had been invited by a Palestinian friend to help prepare his wheat field for plowing. Israeli settlers had illegally planted olive tree saplings in the field, and not wishing to see them damaged, the group prepared to transplant them to the adjacent Susia settlement property. Settlers armed with Uzis arrived at the site, located about 30 minutes south of Hebron, and began harassing the CPTers. Team members were pushed, spit on, threatened and hit with stones.
http://www.cpt.org/archives/1996/june.html

Quote: Bands of armed, often violent young settlers, dubbed "the hilltop boys" by more established settlers, are manning many of the most isolated and vulnerable new outposts. The majority are teenagers, twentysomething bachelors or single women. Many were raised in more established settlements and come from religious backgrounds. In recent months, they have been at the forefront of confrontations with neighboring Arabs, journalists, and on occasion, the Israeli army.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A24478-2002Dec7?language=printer
Quote:
Men and women on their way to work or to run errands, children going to and from school or friends' houses, families going to pray, all must tread under the suspicious and terrifying gaze of the Israeli soldiers. The soldiers, though, are not the only armed Israelis in Hebron. There are also settlers walking the streets with Uzis and assault rifles.
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=2151

Settlers live with Uzis under their pillows, at their sides, in their schools.

For those that say that Lebanon should bring Hezbollah under control. What should Israel do to bring Settlers under control?

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 7892 Location: Petah Tikva

The settlers arent a militia, sure they cause trouble every so often but to compare them to an organized militia is absurd. They spend most of the time isolated in the areas the settlements cover.

Nico · Joined: 03 Nov 2004 Posts: 10303

superskippy wrote: Quote: hezbollah is not a country ---->therefore and since it hasnt signed any internationnal conventions u cant say anything abt its actions.

If they arent a country, arent a seperatist group, then they have no status as militants or soldiers and are only armed criminals. Thus they have already broken a law. They cannot be both ways, they are either a para-military force under the arm of the government, or they are a group in rebellion, or they are simply criminals.

Actually you are right in my opinion. If Hezbollah don't respect the government of the country they are from, they are criminals in my eyes as well, at least when committing offensive actions against Israeli soil. Defending Lebanese soil I see as another topic.. However, charging them with breaches of the Geneva convention while Israel breaches the Geneva convention on select points, strikes me as a dead argument.
Basically, pot...meet kettle in this regard.

The Newb · Joined: 06 Oct 2006 Posts: 2665

Nico wrote: superskippy wrote: Quote: hezbollah is not a country ---->therefore and since it hasnt signed any internationnal conventions u cant say anything abt its actions.

If they arent a country, arent a seperatist group, then they have no status as militants or soldiers and are only armed criminals. Thus they have already broken a law. They cannot be both ways, they are either a para-military force under the arm of the government, or they are a group in rebellion, or they are simply criminals.

Actually you are right in my opinion. If Hezbollah don't respect the government of the country they are from, they are criminals in my eyes as well, at least when committing offensive actions against Israeli soil. Defending Lebanese soil I see as another topic.. However, charging them with breaches of the Geneva convention while Israel breaches the Geneva convention on select points, strikes me as a dead argument.
Basically, pot...meet kettle in this regard.

i wasnt charging them with breaches to make them look like the bad guy, so many people condem isreal for what hezbollah doea on a daily basis, why condem one when both are at fault? yes isreal is at fault, but atleast they try to stay within their signed treaty, even though the militia / criminals do not

unclesamual · Joined: 25 Oct 2006 Posts: 43

Quote: The settlers arent a militia, sure they cause trouble every so often but to compare them to an organized militia is absurd. They spend most of the time isolated in the areas the settlements cover.

back in 1993:
Quote: Today, a small minority among the 120,000 Israeli settlers in the West Bank are attempting to create a second military force in the occupied territories with an agenda far more radical than Israel's army of occupation and not subject to any authority but settlers and their rabbis.
http://www.fmep.org/reports/vol03/no4/03-militant_settlers_test_rabins_authority.html

Quote: But what disturbs many ordinary Israelis is the possibility that the evacuation will trigger a civil war in which soldiers and policemen sent to clear Gaza will face a dangerous confrontation with militant settlers.

Most of the nearly 200 settlements in Gaza and the West Bank are effectively small armouries that have been generously supplied by the Israeli army for three decades. Men wander around with automatic rifles slung over their shoulders, and women keep a pistol within arm's reach in their cars and homes.

http://www.countercurrents.org/pa-cook010305.htm

And they are not militias? They are armed groups to "defend" the settlements. We might be having translational issues here. Lets also not forget that a common reason proposed for the occupation and the settlements is a military buffer zone.

Quote: Actually you are right in my opinion. If Hezbollah don't respect the government of the country they are from, they are criminals in my eyes as well, at least when committing offensive actions against Israeli soil.

As far as respect for the country they are in, Hezbollah has much support among Christians and Muslims alike. In a poll, 55% of Christians supported capturing the two soldiers to get Lebanese released.

slitedeviance · Joined: 02 Sep 2006 Posts: 1507

The Newb wrote: i wasnt charging them with breaches to make them look like the bad guy, so many people condem isreal for what hezbollah doea on a daily basis, why condem one when both are at fault?

Completely agreed. The point I was disputing was just when you queried how Israel could have sat back when Hizbollah was freely out of line on conventions which Israel has also had issues with.

The Newb · Joined: 06 Oct 2006 Posts: 2665

slitedeviance wrote: The Newb wrote: i wasnt charging them with breaches to make them look like the bad guy, so many people condem isreal for what hezbollah doea on a daily basis, why condem one when both are at fault?

Completely agreed. The point I was disputing was just when you queried how Israel could have sat back when Hizbollah was freely out of line on conventions which Israel has also had issues with.

my original statement:

these are a few and many more violations so how can you expect isreal not to defend themselves again?

too many poeple refuse to see the isrealis side and claim they are the wrong doers, i claim whats good for one is good for the other

slitedeviance · Joined: 02 Sep 2006 Posts: 1507

The Newb wrote: too many poeple refuse to see the isrealis side and claim they are the wrong doers, i claim whats good for one is good for the other

True, but on the flipside, if we're talking looking equally at the situation, the statement could be reversed to read "How could Hizbollah sit back and not fight when Israel has violated these conventions".

The Newb · Joined: 06 Oct 2006 Posts: 2665

slitedeviance wrote: The Newb wrote: too many poeple refuse to see the isrealis side and claim they are the wrong doers, i claim whats good for one is good for the other

True, but on the flipside, if we're talking looking equally at the situation, the statement could be reversed to read "How could Hizbollah sit back and not fight when Israel has violated these conventions".

i do not believe that isreal has started this fight, and recently hezbollah has been the agressors, that is why i put it in isreals light

ALi* · Joined: 20 Sep 2006 Posts: 427 Location: Beirut

can u people just get over the who started the war dispute??? :?
whoever started it... we all know the consequences!
who gained support?who lost it?
who had more material destruction?
who lost more civilians?
who lost more soldiers?
who lost more military equipement? etc....

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 7892 Location: Petah Tikva

Quote: can u people just get over the who started the war dispute???

No because it is a critical part, thats like saying lets forget who started World War II or any war for that matter.

Quote: who gained support?who lost it?

Hezbollah gained support at home but lost much from many Arab governments and nations. Israel as always has a rocky relationship with certain nations but it never really changes the status of that relationship. We probably damaged views on the Arab street though less so than might be though, gained support in America and a few other allied nations, and lost support amongst several Europeon nations.

Quote: who had more material destruction?

Hezbollah.

Quote: who lost more civilians?

Lebanon.

Quote: who lost more soldiers?

If you want to call them soldiers, Hezbollah.

Quote: who lost more military equipement? etc....

Hezollah, though in terms of large machinary which Hezbollah lacks it is obviously Israel. But overall it would be Hezbollah.

slitedeviance · Joined: 02 Sep 2006 Posts: 1507

superskippy wrote: and lost support amongst several Europeon nations.

Just wondering on a side note skip whether this has affected the Israeli view of certain EU countries such as Germany and France who backed calls for a cease fire where Britain (reprehensibly IMO) did not?

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 7892 Location: Petah Tikva

We have had cold relations with France for years. As for Germany they will do what they can diplomatically but tread as lightly as they can and still sell as what we want and help us when we need it. They arent at the point where they feel they can really morally take a stand against us nor do they really want to. Even in the wake of the conflict our new set of submarines are still coming on schedule.

Nico · Joined: 03 Nov 2004 Posts: 10303

The Newb wrote:

i wasnt charging them with breaches to make them look like the bad guy, so many people condem isreal for what hezbollah doea on a daily basis, why condem one when both are at fault? yes isreal is at fault, but atleast they try to stay within their signed treaty, even though the militia / criminals do not

Israel has signed selected articles of the convention, however the ones it breaches, especially in regard to holding of prisoners, are no worse than Hezbollah kidnapping Israelis.
Israel kidnaps and/or holds without charge people it has issue with, regularly. The veil of 'law' it uses to do so is not law by the geneva convention but an arbitrary self serving dictat.
What gives the impression of law with concern to Israel is all about how they sell it to the world. It helps to wear a nice uniform and have a good haircut, and give the impression that nothing else could be done, but the actions are identical.

Hezbollah have effectively held 2 enemy combattants without charge. I dare anyone to guess how many enemy combattant israel holds without charge right now, not even including political prisoners such as the ones it kidnapped directly before an Israeli soldier was kidnapped in gaza.
We are talking in the hundreds. Where is the angst about this? It's a state of mind stemming from being sold on intrinsic right and wrong rather than situational objectivity.

Quite clearly there are rules for them, rules for us, and outrage that equal judgement should be passed by outsiders.
I am one of the few in my country who has worked with members of the IDF, and it was that experience that stopped me being subjective, captain-Israel-is-always-right, and started me questioning everybody.

There is a very definite two way street in the way each side treats each other. There is no intrinsic right side, regardless that I think Palestinians deserve a much better world than the one they were born into.

mendosan · Joined: 02 May 2006 Posts: 2539

Quote: Hezbollah have effectively held 2 enemy combatants without charge. I dare anyone to guess how many enemy combatant Israel holds without charge right now, not even including political prisoners such as the ones it kidnapped directly before an Israeli soldier was kidnapped in gaza.

But if I'm right, I may not be Guerrilla groups only have the status of combatants if they follow the Geneva Convention, and only combatants can be classed as POWs, in both respects or Hamas and Hezzbollah they are held as Criminals not POWs which seems to me to be the right designation.

Article 4
Quote: 2. Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions:

(a) That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;

(b) That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;

(c) That of carrying arms openly;

(d) That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war

And I will preempt the "but Israel also breaches the convention (which I don't dispute)" rebuttal there classed under Article 4 Clauses 1,3&5 as POWs
Quote:
1. Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.
Quote:
3. Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power.
Quote:
5. Members of crews, including masters, pilots and apprentices, of the merchant marine and the crews of civil aircraft of the Parties to the conflict, who do not benefit by more favourable treatment under any other provisions of international law.

Now if Hamas or Hezzblolah are criminals (I could be wrong), I believe they should be tried as such by either Isreal or an International court, I also believe they have the same rights as other criminals.

The Newb · Joined: 06 Oct 2006 Posts: 2665

beat me to it

nice post :tu:

ALi* · Joined: 20 Sep 2006 Posts: 427 Location: Beirut

superskippy wrote: Quote: can u people just get over the who started the war dispute???

No because it is a critical part, thats like saying lets forget who started World War II or any war for that matter.

and if we said lets forget who started ww2...??? :roll: would it make a difference on the outcome of the war...

Quote: who gained support?who lost it?

Hezbollah gained support at home but lost much from many Arab governments and nations. Israel as always has a rocky relationship with certain nations but it never really changes the status of that relationship. We probably damaged views on the Arab street though less so than might be though, gained support in America and a few other allied nations, and lost support amongst several Europeon nations.

true... hezbollah gained support at home and lost much from many arab governments.
p.s: many = jordan/ ksa / egypt ... who believed hezbolah wouldnt stand a chance but were forced later to stand equally from both sides so their mistake wouldnt appear clearly!
ksa is rebuilding lebanon now... yesterday the saoudi ambassador in leb had a 4hours meeting with hezbollah officials and sayyed nassrallah then stated afterwards that the meeting was GREAT!

anyways... watever the governments thought or still think... hezbollah never cared abt politicians... but THE PEOPLE!
the number of ARABS supporting hezbollah has doubled and the number of ARABS who were not afraid of israeli anymore has trippled if not more... so i guess i made my point!

Quote: who had more material destruction?

Hezbollah.

true

Quote: who lost more civilians?

Lebanon.

true

Quote: who lost more soldiers?

If you want to call them soldiers, Hezbollah.

false

Quote: who lost more military equipement? etc....

Hezollah, though in terms of large machinary which Hezbollah lacks it is obviously Israel. But overall it would be Hezbollah.

man! would u compare a dozen of rocket launchers... to 120 tanks more than 30 armored vehicules 5 helicopters 3 naval parts :-| plzzzzzz :wink:

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 7892 Location: Petah Tikva

Quote: and if we said lets forget who started ww2...??? would it make a difference on the ourcome of the war...

It would make an enormous difference in analyzing it and a major historical mistake.

Quote: true... hezbollah gained support at home and lost much from many arab governments.
p.s: many = jordan/ ksa / egypt ... who believed hezbolah wouldnt stand a chance but were forced later to stand equally from both sides so their mistake wouldnt appear clearly!

No they just thought it was a major political error on the part of Hezbollah as it has turned out to be.

Quote: false

400 dead fully documented by name and address and released to the press is rather hard to argue against.

Quote: many would u compare a dozen of rocket launchers... to 120 tanks more than 30 armored vehicules 5 helicopters 3 naval parts plzzzzzz

Dozens of ammunition dumps destroyed, communications ability destroyed, dozens of rocket launchers destroyed, scores of trucks destroyed, thousands of tons of supplies destroyed or seized, and the last of several main rocket platforms. As for 120 tanks... Hezbollah only hit 40 of them and destroyed less than a dozen at the very most.

ALi* · Joined: 20 Sep 2006 Posts: 427 Location: Beirut

Quote: 400 dead fully documented by name and address and released to the press is rather hard to argue against.
its a fake list with fake names... ive seen it theyve thrown it in pamphlets....
anyway how would the israeli army know all that???

Quote: As for 120 tanks... Hezbollah only hit 40 of them and destroyed less than a dozen at the very most.
link? source? plz a real source not wiki or fox news :lol: