Political Crossfire Forums

bunny · Joined: 14 Oct 2006 Posts: 584

Quote: Six Palestinians and one Israeli soldier have been killed in heavy clashes in the northern Gaza Strip.

In one of Israel's biggest raids into Gaza in recent months, troops carried out three air strikes and moved to encircle the town of Beit Hanoun.

More than 35 people were wounded in the action, which is continuing.

An Israeli military spokesman said the operation was aimed at stopping rocket fire into Israel. Palestinian leaders have strongly condemned it.

Both the Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas and the prime minister, Ismail Haniya, have described the Israeli military action as a massacre.

The Israeli army confirmed the death of one of its soldiers some hours after Palestinian militant groups issued statements saying they had killed an Israeli.

Witnesses said Israeli tanks backed by helicopter gunships entered Beit Hanoun overnight, amid heavy exchanges of fire.

Heavy fighting

Sixty tanks were involved in the attack, the AFP agency said.

The agency has reported that Israeli soldiers took positions on rooftops during exchanges of fire with militants.

Israeli bulldozers razed three houses in Beit Hanoun, and another dozen homes were hit by tank shells, the agency reported.

There are reports of fighting in the nearby refugee camps of Jabaliya and town of Beit Lahiya.

Among those killed are a Palestinian policeman and militants.

On Tuesday, Israeli forces killed two Hamas militants in the Gaza Strip in a clash in the south near Khan Younis.

Linkage

Israel is living upto the Warmonger she really & truly is...

czechmate · Joined: 29 Oct 2006 Posts: 340 Location: Praha

I wouldnt label Israel as a warmonger for having conducted a perfectly justifiable pre-emptive strike.

Plato & Socrates · Joined: 24 Dec 2005 Posts: 1743 Location: London

bunny wrote: Quote: Six Palestinians and one Israeli soldier have been killed in heavy clashes in the northern Gaza Strip.

In one of Israel's biggest raids into Gaza in recent months, troops carried out three air strikes and moved to encircle the town of Beit Hanoun.

More than 35 people were wounded in the action, which is continuing.

An Israeli military spokesman said the operation was aimed at stopping rocket fire into Israel. Palestinian leaders have strongly condemned it.

Both the Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas and the prime minister, Ismail Haniya, have described the Israeli military action as a massacre.

The Israeli army confirmed the death of one of its soldiers some hours after Palestinian militant groups issued statements saying they had killed an Israeli.

Witnesses said Israeli tanks backed by helicopter gunships entered Beit Hanoun overnight, amid heavy exchanges of fire.

Heavy fighting

Sixty tanks were involved in the attack, the AFP agency said.

The agency has reported that Israeli soldiers took positions on rooftops during exchanges of fire with militants.

Israeli bulldozers razed three houses in Beit Hanoun, and another dozen homes were hit by tank shells, the agency reported.

There are reports of fighting in the nearby refugee camps of Jabaliya and town of Beit Lahiya.

Among those killed are a Palestinian policeman and militants.

On Tuesday, Israeli forces killed two Hamas militants in the Gaza Strip in a clash in the south near Khan Younis.

Linkage

Israel is living upto the Warmonger she really & truly is...

Why the surprise? :twisted:

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 7442 Location: Petah Tikva

This is a large operation and many militants have been killed, as well as an IDF soldier killed and many more wounded.

Yoadm · Joined: 11 Apr 2005 Posts: 398 Location: Israel

Some narrow minded individuals here, tend to look only at the outcome, and not what lead to it. These are the same sorts of people who would have called Brittain "warmonger" for declaring war on germany in 1939.. The notion of "the big picture" seems to escape them..

Here are the reasons why this operation should have been done a long time ago. Without the possibility of negotiations with Hamas, this is the only way to lower the amount of shells/mortars/rockets hitting Israels southern towns:

- "15,000 guns, 4 million bullets, 2,300 pistols, 38 rockets, dozens of anti-tank missiles, 15 tons of TNT, 400 RPGs, and 10-15 Katyushas like those used in Lebanon had been smuggled into Gaza from Egypt so far.."

-"At this point, anybody who wants to smuggle something through the Philadelphi route can apparently do so," Diskin said. "You can smuggle anything through Philadelphi except maybe a tank or plane."

- "For ten years, we've been hearing these types of reports, but there has never been such an immediate need for action. Every kind of weapon is getting into the Gaza Strip, and Hamas is establishing a terrorist army. It is no longer possible to say they didn't warn us."
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1154525966410&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull

Israeli soldiers "discover five more Gaza smuggling tunnels"

Deutsche Presse-Agentur (dpa)
10/18/2006

Tel Aviv (dpa) - Israeli soldiers Wednesday unearthed five more tunnels between Gaza and Egypt used by Palestinians for smuggling operations, a military spokeswoman said.

The tunnels, near Rafah, were destroyed. They brought to 21 the number of such tunnels discovered in recent weeks. Israel claims the tunnels are used for smuggling arms and ammunition.

http://www.jewishfedny.org/content_display.html?ArticleID=197951

-Halutz: Hundreds of arms-smuggling tunnels being dug in Gaza

- at least 100 1.5 km-long tunnel entrances dug by Palestinian militants in the Rafah area in southern Gaza, in the course of the days-long "Operation Squeezed Fruit." He said at hundreds more of these entrances have already been dug.

- In that regard, Halutz said a military presence in the Philadelphi route would be preferable to the absence of IDF forces in the area, Army Radio reported.

"We are close to the decision point regarding our presence along the Philadelphi Route, if the present reality of arms-smuggling doesn't stop," Halutz said.

- "These operations are designed to reduce the areas from which Qassam rockets are fired and deal a blow to to arms smuggling through tunnels," said Peretz. "[The intent is to] deal with the immediate threats and the process of strengthening [of militant organizations] which is taking place."

- After midnight on Monday, the Israel Air Force targeted two Qassam launchers in the Beit Hanun area, from where rockets had been fired against Sderot. Tuesday night, IDF destroyed another rocket launcher in the area.

- Regarding humanitarian aid to Palestinians in the Gaza Strip, the defense minister said Israel is making an effort to increase the aid, while terrorist organizations are harming the transfer of aid.

"The best example of this is the tunnel that was discovered under the Karni commercial crossing," said Peretz.

Following discovery of the tunnel, the Karni crossing was shut down.
www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/778751.html

- Jerusalem (CNSNews.com) - Israel is trying to prevent a Hamas military build-up in the Gaza Strip similar to that of Hizballah in Lebanon, but it has received little help in stopping the weapons smuggling under the Egyptian-Gaza border, Israeli officials said.

At least 20 Palestinians, most of them armed militants, were killed in Israeli operations in the Gaza Strip last week as Israeli troops searched for weapons smuggling tunnels as well as guns and the rockets that are still being fired into Israel.

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewForeignBureaus.asp?Page=/ForeignBureaus/archive/200610/INT20061017a.html

Plato & Socrates · Joined: 24 Dec 2005 Posts: 1743 Location: London

Yoadm wrote: Some narrow minded individuals here, tend to look only at the outcome, and not what lead to it. These are the same sorts of people who would have called Brittain "warmonger" for declaring war on germany in 1939.. The notion of "the big picture" seems to escape them..

Here are the reasons why this operation should have been done a long time ago. Without the possibility of negotiations with Hamas, this is the only way to lower the amount of shells/mortars/rockets hitting Israels southern towns:

- "15,000 guns, 4 million bullets, 2,300 pistols, 38 rockets, dozens of anti-tank missiles, 15 tons of TNT, 400 RPGs, and 10-15 Katyushas like those used in Lebanon had been smuggled into Gaza from Egypt so far.."

-"At this point, anybody who wants to smuggle something through the Philadelphi route can apparently do so," Diskin said. "You can smuggle anything through Philadelphi except maybe a tank or plane."

- "For ten years, we've been hearing these types of reports, but there has never been such an immediate need for action. Every kind of weapon is getting into the Gaza Strip, and Hamas is establishing a terrorist army. It is no longer possible to say they didn't warn us."
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1154525966410&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull

Israeli soldiers "discover five more Gaza smuggling tunnels"

Deutsche Presse-Agentur (dpa)
10/18/2006

Tel Aviv (dpa) - Israeli soldiers Wednesday unearthed five more tunnels between Gaza and Egypt used by Palestinians for smuggling operations, a military spokeswoman said.

The tunnels, near Rafah, were destroyed. They brought to 21 the number of such tunnels discovered in recent weeks. Israel claims the tunnels are used for smuggling arms and ammunition.

http://www.jewishfedny.org/content_display.html?ArticleID=197951

-Halutz: Hundreds of arms-smuggling tunnels being dug in Gaza

- at least 100 1.5 km-long tunnel entrances dug by Palestinian militants in the Rafah area in southern Gaza, in the course of the days-long "Operation Squeezed Fruit." He said at hundreds more of these entrances have already been dug.

- In that regard, Halutz said a military presence in the Philadelphi route would be preferable to the absence of IDF forces in the area, Army Radio reported.

"We are close to the decision point regarding our presence along the Philadelphi Route, if the present reality of arms-smuggling doesn't stop," Halutz said.

- "These operations are designed to reduce the areas from which Qassam rockets are fired and deal a blow to to arms smuggling through tunnels," said Peretz. "[The intent is to] deal with the immediate threats and the process of strengthening [of militant organizations] which is taking place."

- After midnight on Monday, the Israel Air Force targeted two Qassam launchers in the Beit Hanun area, from where rockets had been fired against Sderot. Tuesday night, IDF destroyed another rocket launcher in the area.

- Regarding humanitarian aid to Palestinians in the Gaza Strip, the defense minister said Israel is making an effort to increase the aid, while terrorist organizations are harming the transfer of aid.

"The best example of this is the tunnel that was discovered under the Karni commercial crossing," said Peretz.

Following discovery of the tunnel, the Karni crossing was shut down.
www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/778751.html

- Jerusalem (CNSNews.com) - Israel is trying to prevent a Hamas military build-up in the Gaza Strip similar to that of Hizballah in Lebanon, but it has received little help in stopping the weapons smuggling under the Egyptian-Gaza border, Israeli officials said.

At least 20 Palestinians, most of them armed militants, were killed in Israeli operations in the Gaza Strip last week as Israeli troops searched for weapons smuggling tunnels as well as guns and the rockets that are still being fired into Israel.

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewForeignBureaus.asp?Page=/ForeignBureaus/archive/200610/INT20061017a.html

Yoadm with your thinking we'll still be talking about Israeli action like this in 50 years time. How many Palestinians have Israel killed since the Israels mis-judged war in Lebanon? This latest Israel military offence will solve nothing. But people like you just dont see it. Theres a fundamental reason why Israel is always fighting, try and ask yourself why? and please dont say its because they hate the Jews please. :roll:

czechmate · Joined: 29 Oct 2006 Posts: 340 Location: Praha

Palestine is not a legitimate state as opposed to Israel. Its a territory ruled by terrorist movements. The society is in a state of anarchy, every other person owns an AK47 therefore the palestinian authority cannot impose order among its own people even if it had peaceful intentions. Now this disorder is in conflict with the interests of the isrealis whose sole goal is to maitain the integrity of their territory.
Its should be the palestians duty to accept the fact that they have a jewish neighbour a start fcuking state-building instead of blowing themselves up.

ALi* · Joined: 20 Sep 2006 Posts: 427 Location: Beirut

czechmate wrote: Palestine is not a legitimate state

are you serious? because it is... the last time i looked :)

Quote: every other person owns an AK47
wonder why? :roll:

Quote: therefore the palestinian authority cannot impose order among its own people even if it had peaceful intentions.

ur solution to the problem is to.... :!?: :!?:

thanks

bunny · Joined: 14 Oct 2006 Posts: 584

czechmate wrote: Palestine is not a legitimate state as opposed to Israel.

This does not change the fact that Israel, as an occupying force, has obligations under international treaties, that it neglects to uphold, acting with impunity

czechmate wrote: The society is in a state of anarchy

Sadly, it is. With the above mentioned point being a large reason for this. Gaza has been turned into a outdoor prison by Israel, what else would you expect to ensue

czechmate wrote: Now this disorder is in conflict with the interests of the isrealis whose sole goal is to maitain the integrity of their territory.

This is neither here nor there, as Israel is not exempt from following international laws, which it violates. Israel has everyright to defend itself, from within Israel proper.

Israel is not defending itself, it is dispensing a collective punishment onto an entire demographic.

bunny · Joined: 14 Oct 2006 Posts: 584

double post

And what's up with this error message i got from PCF:

"Something broke. It was probably learn to swim's fault, but endersshadow is looking into it. Never fear."

slitedeviance · Joined: 02 Sep 2006 Posts: 1507

czechmate wrote: Its should be the palestians duty to accept the fact that they have a jewish neighbour a start fcuking state-building instead of blowing themselves up.

...and how would you propose they move forward on this seeing as their infrastructure is repeatedly and illegally destroyed by Israel?

It's fair enough arguing they shoukd take steps forward but how can they acheive this when Israel continues to kick their legs out from under them.

Yoadm · Joined: 11 Apr 2005 Posts: 398 Location: Israel

Yoadm with your thinking we'll still be talking about Israeli action like this in 50 years time.

You would be surprised how many times a firm hand has benefitted future negotiations. Im all for a Palestinien state and mutual recognition, but as long as the Palestinien goverment is unwilling to negotiate any deal that leaves Israel intact as a sovereign nation, we have nothing to talk about.

This latest Israel military offence will solve nothing.

As of today it has lowered the weekly number of missiles falling on the Israeli south-west by 80%. It all stoppes the minute Hamas agrees to negotiate a peace deal. You know it.

and please dont say its because they hate the Jews please.

Between both of us, your the only one using the "jew" card. I havent mentioned it once during my time on Politicalcrossfire.

The Comrade · Joined: 16 Jul 2006 Posts: 10528 Location: Zagreb

so when israel kills 6-10 militants they're warmongers?

good one bunny.

Venom · Joined: 06 Sep 2006 Posts: 807

[quote=Plato]Theres a fundamental reason why Israel is always fighting, try and ask yourself why?[/quote]
Because the Arab world wants Israel wiped off the map. :)

Quote: Yoadm with your thinking we'll still be talking about Israeli action like this in 50 years time.
I'd much rather have Israel using it's military power to defend itself that Israel be wiped off the map.

Quote: This latest Israel military offence will solve nothing
Maybe Israeli citizens that have less missiles falling out of the sky on them disagree?

[quote=Bunny]This does not change the fact that Israel, as an occupying force, has obligations under international treaties, that it neglects to uphold, acting with impunity[/quote]
Israel has obligations to protect itself from attackers.

Quote: Sadly, it is. With the above mentioned point being a large reason for this. Gaza has been turned into a outdoor prison by Israel, what else would you expect to ensue
I would think a group of people would adapt new tactics and take a new angle on the situation. Apparently years of their failed attempts to destroy Israel has taught them nothing. Gaza being turned into an "outdoor prison" is a result of the people from Palestine. They've committed crimes against Israel. Good throw em in jail :wink:

Quote: Israel has everyright to defend itself, from within Israel proper.
So I guess the British should have stayed on British soil when under rocket attacks from the Germans, they had no place on other countries soil after all.
When Japan attacked the United States in WWII we should have just go into further isolation building up a huge defensive wall awaiting the next attack.

Quote: Israel is not defending itself, it is dispensing a collective punishment onto an entire demographic.
I guess the same can be said about all the Allies in WWII. The same can be said of the Palestinians, Hezbollah, etc.

czechmate · Joined: 29 Oct 2006 Posts: 340 Location: Praha

slitedeviance wrote: czechmate wrote: Its should be the palestians duty to accept the fact that they have a jewish neighbour a start fcuking state-building instead of blowing themselves up.

...and how would you propose they move forward on this seeing as their infrastructure is repeatedly and illegally destroyed by Israel?

It's fair enough arguing they shoukd take steps forward but how can they acheive this when Israel continues to kick their legs out from under them.

As I said: Palestinians need to first of all accept the fact that there is and always will be an israeli state sharing borders with them. The problem is that their primary aim is not establishing a sovereign and funtionning palestinian state, but to force the israelis out of a territory which they have no right to anyway. The Middle East is a place where arabs, jews and christians should coexist as they always have in the past. But thanks to racist dictators like Ahmadinedjad, twisted ideologies such as Nasserism,instability caused by muslim fundamentalist backwardness and lack of secularity in the arab world its not possible. Israel is the only country apart maybe from lebanon which has a democratic regime, respects human rights and basic freedoms as well as rule of law on it territory.

czechmate · Joined: 29 Oct 2006 Posts: 340 Location: Praha

bunny wrote: czechmate wrote: Palestine is not a legitimate state as opposed to Israel.

This does not change the fact that Israel, as an occupying force, has obligations under international treaties, that it neglects to uphold, acting with impunity

czechmate wrote: The society is in a state of anarchy

Sadly, it is. With the above mentioned point being a large reason for this. Gaza has been turned into a outdoor prison by Israel, what else would you expect to ensue

czechmate wrote: Now this disorder is in conflict with the interests of the isrealis whose sole goal is to maitain the integrity of their territory.

This is neither here nor there, as Israel is not exempt from following international laws, which it violates. Israel has everyright to defend itself, from within Israel proper.

Israel is not defending itself, it is dispensing a collective punishment onto an entire demographic.

If israel were to obey international law (which serves more as a guideline than anything else because its not enforceable) then it would quite simply cease to exist. How come the international community which worships international law failed to impose competent sanctions against Iran for example? We all know that Iran has nuclear ambitions and will sooner or later develop a nuclear bomb and above that its foreign policy is openly anti-semitic.

The palestinians have been offered land with fixed borders twice but they refused. The reason being the existence of Israel. Israel is an outpost of civilisation in the middle east....and the islamists cant stand the shame that a jewish nation is better off than any muslim nation in the world.

Venom · Joined: 06 Sep 2006 Posts: 807

Czech is right
The pro Palestinian side has very vocally been against such interventions as Iraq despite the fact that country broke tons of "internationl laws", committed a slew of war crimes and also committed acts of genocide. Yet this same group wants something done to Israel? We'll which do you want?

Iran flipped the international community the bird and nothing happened as czechmate pointed out.
North Korea, the same thing.
Yet apparently those that are pro Palestine again seem to advocate going to just peace talks and not using sanctions, they advocate appeasement.
I have yet to see the world rushing to save people in Darfur.

It seems to me history has a way of showing that a large population of the world would much rather choose appeasement over actually standing up for something. Look at the world wars, look at how the world should be expected to give all sorts of aid to North Korea, the world should trust Iran despite it's very vocal anti-Western and anti-semitic comments, Saddam should NOT have been attacked despite his attack on US and British war planes, his outright support of terrorism (he paid Palestinian sucide bomber's families...), his mass murderering, war crimes etc. The world should have waited for Saddams people to toss him out (except his two sons, arguably even more brutal, were next in line for power) and the fact that his people had made botched attempts at this very act, all of which failed without foreign support.

It seems to me that many that are pro palestinian, anti Israel say one thing but do another.

emerald · Joined: 05 Apr 2005 Posts: 6927 Location: uk

i was reading an article in the Guardian (yes roll eyes righties) which was reffering to the palestinians gvts resolution that there be a 10 year ceasefire between both sides, instead of recognition of israel. now before all the pro israeli's jump, i would rather that hamas just recognize israel and get on with ruling their country with international help. however, the majority of the palestinian population voted hamas in for the very fact that they were not going to bow down to this issue. The hamas leadership apparently believe that within a 10 year ceasefire this would enable the views of the palestinians to change if they are not being attacked by israeli forces every other day. if Hamas could control their people to not attack israel, and israel didnt attack palestinian territories and kept to it's own, then isnt this a better step forward then banging their heads onto a brick wall?

the article is here:

[url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/frontpage/story/0,,1936443,00.html]
www.guardian.co.uk/frontpage/story/0,,1936443,00.html[/url]

mendosan · Joined: 02 May 2006 Posts: 2322

emerald wrote: i was reading an article in the Guardian (yes roll eyes righties) which was reffering to the palestinians gvts resolution that there be a 10 year ceasefire between both sides, instead of recognition of israel. now before all the pro israeli's jump, i would rather that hamas just recognize israel and get on with ruling their country with international help. however, the majority of the palestinian population voted hamas in for the very fact that they were not going to bow down to this issue. The hamas leadership apparently believe that within a 10 year ceasefire this would enable the views of the palestinians to change if they are not being attacked by israeli forces every other day. if Hamas could control their people to not attack israel, and israel didnt attack palestinian territories and kept to it's own, then isnt this a better step forward then banging their heads onto a brick wall?

the article is here:

[url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/frontpage/story/0,,1936443,00.html]
www.guardian.co.uk/frontpage/story/0,,1936443,00.html[/url]

Israel doesn't trust Hamas nor should you or I, they just want to do a Hezzbollah get proper training from Iran and some proper equipment then goad Israel into attacking first.

slitedeviance · Joined: 02 Sep 2006 Posts: 1507

mendosan wrote: Israel doesn't trust Hamas nor should you or I, they just want to do a Hezzbollah get proper training from Iran and some proper equipment then goad Israel into attacking first.

So you say that the Palestinians need to take steps towards peace, a 10 year ceasefire is offered and your opinion is "We can't trust these guys so no deal!".

How could Hamas earn this "trust" which they apparently need?