Political Crossfire Forums

[slitedeviance]

Venom wrote: Hrmm go figure that if Palestine is a democracy as you all have stated that anyone could have run for office could they not? If there was any sort of % of Palestinians against the terrorism why didn't they run? Check the United States and you'll find there are a hundreds of Presidentail canidates across the country. You can actually right them in on the ballot in the United States. Can Palestine not have done this? Were they unable to actually set up a 3rd party to run for government? If so then they are hardly a democracy, but rather a population ruled by force rather than words.

But you're talking about the situation as thought the entire Palestinian population sat down and decided that only Hamas and Fatah would run, as though there was some kind of national consensus where everyone went "Hey, yeah, electing a terrorist organisation is definately the best route.", whilst simultaniously ignoring one of the major points of the situation which is IT COSTS MONEY TO REGISTER, IT COSTS MONEY TO PROMOTE YOUR CANDIDACY, IT TAKES MONEY TO WIN.

Fatah and Hamas have access to large private funds with which to support themselves through any election campaign, I doubt your "average joe" Palestinian can afford much apart from food, water and somewhere to live.

[Venom]

Quote: But you're talking about the situation as thought the entire Palestinian population sat down and decided that only Hamas and Fatah would run
By not offering up a 3rd choice that appears to be the general consensus.

Quote: though there was some kind of national consensus where everyone went "Hey, yeah, electing a terrorist organisation is definately the best route.",
It would appear the majority of people did.

Quote: whilst simultaniously ignoring one of the major points of the situation which is IT COSTS MONEY TO REGISTER, IT COSTS MONEY TO PROMOTE YOUR CANDIDACY, IT TAKES MONEY TO WIN.
Apparently it takes Guns, Bombs, and Terrorism.
If there were enough Palestinians that wanted a different party could they not have made a movement? Hamas and the Fatah seem to get money and volunteers out of the Palestinian people, why doesn't an actual political party that favors diplomacy?

Quote: Fatah and Hamas have access to large private funds with which to support themselves through any election campaign, I doubt your "average joe" Palestinian can afford much apart from food, water and somewhere to live.
Oh I don't doubt your "average joe" Palestinian is far from rich, however if there was a good number of them I'm quite confident that they could spare a few dollars or some spare time to help move forward a campaign of an actual party that favors diplomacy. Also isn't a great deal of Palestine unemployed? So instead of attacking the IDF they could go door to door doing a word of mouth campaign for the party of diplomacy. It's not like they have a job to go to right?
Apparently they'd rather rush into Israel and blow themselves up.

[slitedeviance]

Sorry dude, but you keep running along this "Set up a third party" route without actually conceeding no-one in Gaza or the West Bank has the funds for this. Your argument that 30% of the population who are unemployed should have banded together fails to take into account the 30% will not agree with one another on various issues, thus making the party effectively pointless.

How about this as an idea for sorting the argument...

2 years until the presidential elections in the US, so how about you band together with some of your buddies and set up a political party. Instead of spending your money of having fun or providing for your family, you dedicate it to setting up this party and then try and win an election. If you manage to win even 1 seat I would be stunned and concede the point. Until then you're basing this on conjecture and assumptions which seem to be several degrees away from the reality of the situation.

Venom wrote: Apparently they'd rather rush into Israel and blow themselves up.

Number of suicide bombings in the last twelve months?

[Venom]

Quote: Sorry dude, but you keep running along this "Set up a third party" route without actually conceeding no-one in Gaza or the West Bank has the funds for this
And yet they aren't starving to death, they have money to put clothes on their backs, they have water, etc... they certainly seem to have money to buy weapons.
So yes apparently the money is there.

Quote: Your argument that 30% of the population who are unemployed should have banded together fails to take into account the 30% will not agree with one another on various issues, thus making the party effectively pointless.

No I didn't fail to take account of that I was making an example. However it is nice that you have chosen to show that of the unemployed they will not agree that the terrorism needs to stop. Also I guess the 70% with jobs can't put together funds to get a political movement?
I guess your saying there isn't enough % of Palestine than wants a third party and I agree. Time has shown all they want is terrorism.

Quote: 2 years until the presidential elections in the US, so how about you band together with some of your buddies and set up a political party
Because I am not old enough nor are my "buddies" to run for the President of the United States.

Quote: Instead of spending your money of having fun or providing for your family, you dedicate it to setting up this party and then try and win an election
If you have a large body of people you do not have to give up all of your money. So give up my money of having fun? You know if I was in Palestine I'd gladly trade my "fun money" for diplomacy, I'd rather trade "fun money" to stop terrorism.
Also this happens in the United States. You'll see the third party in national elections. The first major 3rd party canidate was Rose Perrot in the early 90s. He was a businessman that *gasp* got lots of donations from supporters and put together one heck of a run.
Quote: If you manage to win even 1 seat I would be stunned and concede the point
Check the US Senate. There are several third party members holding office there. Look at Joe Liberman, a former Democrat, who lost his parties support and was forced to go to his supporters for donations and not be funded by the Democratic party. He just won.

Quote: Until then you're basing this on conjecture and assumptions which seem to be several degrees away from the reality of the situation.

The only part of my theory that is away from reality is that any portion of Palestine wants the terrorism to end. That's the assumption of my posting, when in fight time has shown they indeed crave terrorism against the Jewish State of Israel.

Quote: Number of suicide bombings in the last twelve months?
Has Israel left it buffer zone? Nope. Apparently it's working thank you for helping to support my statement. :lol:
Of course Palestinian families have made huge chunks of change for themselves using this tactic in the past
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,48822,00.html
Quote: Saddam Hussein is paying $25,000 to the relatives of Palestinian suicide bombers — a $15,000 raise much welcomed by the bombers' families.


Too bad that resource is going to apparently be hung :(

[slitedeviance]

Venom wrote: Quote: Sorry dude, but you keep running along this "Set up a third party" route without actually conceeding no-one in Gaza or the West Bank has the funds for this
And yet they aren't starving to death, they have money to put clothes on their backs, they have water, etc... they certainly seem to have money to buy weapons.
So yes apparently the money is there.

How many times? The money being used for purchasing weapons is in the hands of Hamas and other militant organisations.

Quote: However it is nice that you have chosen to show that of the unemployed they will not agree that the terrorism needs to stop.

Hmmm... where did I state that? I merely said that they would not agree on issues. The one dimensional tactics you're arguing with are flawed because *gasp* TERRORISM IS NOT THE ONLY ISSUE IN PALESTINE.

Quote: Time has shown all they want is terrorism.

Ah really. So when the independant Palestinian State was set up the terrorist attacks continued?

Quote: Because I am not old enough nor are my "buddies" to run for the President of the United States.

Sorry, I didn't realise there was that much of an age limit on the situation. How old do you have to be to run for president?

Quote: So give up my money of having fun? You know if I was in Palestine I'd gladly trade my "fun money" for diplomacy, I'd rather trade "fun money" to stop terrorism.

If you lived in Palestine you wouldn't have "fun money".

Quote: Also this happens in the United States. You'll see the third party in national elections. The first major 3rd party canidate was Rose Perrot in the early 90s. He was a businessman that *gasp* got lots of donations from supporters and put together one heck of a run.

Ah and did he win?

Quote: The only part of my theory that is away from reality is that any portion of Palestine wants the terrorism to end.

...and assuming that 30% of their population could band together.
...and assuming that their political system would allow for third parties.
...and assuming that the money the 30% raised would be sufficient to support a campaign.

Quote: Number of suicide bombings in the last twelve months?
Has Israel left it buffer zone? Nope. Apparently it's working thank you for helping to support my statement. :lol:[/quote]

Actually I was voicing the idea that Hamas have been the most succesful Palestinian authority in terms of combating internal militants intent on suicide bombings in Israel. Sounds like the Knesset should be working with them.

Quote: Quote: Saddam Hussein is paying $25,000 to the relatives of Palestinian suicide bombers — a $15,000 raise much welcomed by the bombers' families.


Too bad that resource is going to apparently be hung :(

Source? Besides which its not the Palestinians fault who offers them money. If they accept it then you have to start looking at individuals, but like I say, if you choose to view the world in such black and white terms you'll never be able to try and resolve the issue unless you want to advocate the Genocide of the Palestinians. Until they are given a state the problem will persist.

[Venom]

Quote: How many times? The money being used for purchasing weapons is in the hands of Hamas and other militant organisations.
And yet they all seem to be able to afford the AK in their household.

Quote: Hmmm... where did I state that? I merely said that they would not agree on issues. The one dimensional tactics you're arguing with are flawed because *gasp* TERRORISM IS NOT THE ONLY ISSUE IN PALESTINE
Well in past posts you have made the point of idle hands becoming dangerous have you not? You've shown that 30% of Palestine, which is unemployed, would not agree to put together a party to stop their terrorism.
One dimensional tactics I am arguing is the one demensional tactics used by Palestine.

Quote: Ah really. So when the independant Palestinian State was set up the terrorist attacks continued?
During my lifetime all that I've seen from Palestine is terrorism. Also Palestine is a state? The US doesn't seem to believe so :lol:

Quote: How old do you have to be to run for president?
It's 35 years old I believe.

Quote: If you lived in Palestine you wouldn't have "fun money".

Hey you were the one that said they did. :lol:
Also how much money do you need to have fun? I can have fun with a simple soccer ball... a makeshift game. It's not expensive. That is why soccer is so popular in poor nations because all you really need is a ball, nothing more.
But I know a ball costs hundreds of dollars.

Quote: Ah and did he win?
No however he ran and got a decent percentage of the vote. I've shown you 3rd party canidates that have won. :)

Quote: Reports seem to suggest that almost 70 percent of the Palestinians turned out to vote.
Source
So apparently 70% could be bothered to vote (much higher than the United States), and they still voted in Hamas. Go go terrorism I guess is the theme from Palestine.

Quote: ...and assuming that 30% of their population could band together.
...and assuming that their political system would allow for third parties.
...and assuming that the money the 30% raised would be sufficient to support a campaign.
Apparently atleast 36% of the population banded together to vote for Hamas.
That's a great democracy, free society if you cannot run as a third party.
You don't need money to talk to people, last time I checked when I come here talking my political views I am not charged $100 a post.
So talking to people with a grass roots campaign in Palestine is charged a fee?

Quote: Has Israel left it buffer zone? Nope.
Exactly hence the lack of attacks :)

Quote: Apparently it's working thank you for helping to support my statement.
Hrmm prior to a buffer zone Palestine attempted to invade Israel if you recall along with their Arab neighbors. So much for your support :wink:

Quote: Actually I was voicing the idea that Hamas have been the most succesful Palestinian authority in terms of combating internal militants intent on suicide bombings in Israel. Sounds like the Knesset should be working with them
Ya lets work with a group that kills and kidnaps IDF soldiers. Sounds like a great idea... nevermind their long history of attacks either, or their constant flow of missiles being launched into Israel. Lets work with Hamas.... :lol:
I guess W. Churchill should have struck a deal with Hitler when he was destroying the UK.. sounds great.

Quote: Source?
The link I provided above the quote.

Quote: Besides which its not the Palestinians fault who offers them money
Ya sure of course not. I must have missed the part in the article where Saddam held a gun to their head in order to force them to take they money. :roll:

Quote: Until they are given a state the problem will persist.
Until Israel is gone the Palestinians will be violent. Case closed. Look at the groups they elect and what they have done. They openly preach the destruction of Israel.

Quote: Mohammed Deif praised Israel's withdrawal from the Gaza Strip as a victory for armed resistance, rejected calls for his group to disarm, and vowed to continue attacks on Israel until the Jewish state is erased from the map.
Quote: A shadowy Hamas bombmaker who tops Israel's most-wanted list on Saturday issued his first videotaped statement since going into hiding more than a decade ago.
Source
Wow Israel stops occupying an area... Hamas claims to have defeated the IDF.. and vows to continue attacks. Not only that, they vow to destroy all of Israel.
Your right Israel should negotiate... all Israel has to do is destroy their own country and Palestine will almost be happy.
Hrmm if only all the Jews would just die right?.... then Palestine would be "peaceful"... well that is until they make their move against other "infidels" in the world. :shock: :shock:

[agentkgb]

Venom wrote: Quote: How many times? The money being used for purchasing weapons is in the hands of Hamas and other militant organisations.
And yet they all seem to be able to afford the AK in their household.
I've been told that many Israelis have an M-16.

Venom wrote: Quote: Ah really. So when the independant Palestinian State was set up the terrorist attacks continued?
During my lifetime all that I've seen from Palestine is terrorism. Also Palestine is a state? The US doesn't seem to believe so :lol:
Believe it or not what the US thinks is not what the world revolves around. And since it's an occupied country in which running water and electricity can't be counted on and suvival is a serious concern for most, it's not surprising that Palestinians have been unable to invent anything great or extraordinary or something like that.

Venom wrote: Quote: Ah and did he win?
No however he ran and got a decent percentage of the vote. I've shown you 3rd party canidates that have won. :)
And how much power do they have in comparison to the Democrats and the Republicans? Not much.
Venom wrote: Quote: Reports seem to suggest that almost 70 percent of the Palestinians turned out to vote.
Source
So apparently 70% could be bothered to vote (much higher than the United States), and they still voted in Hamas. Go go terrorism I guess is the theme from Palestine.
Because the only issue they could possibly have taken into consideration was whether the party supported terrorism. :roll:
Venom wrote: Quote: ...and assuming that 30% of their population could band together.
...and assuming that their political system would allow for third parties.
...and assuming that the money the 30% raised would be sufficient to support a campaign.
Apparently atleast 36% of the population banded together to vote for Hamas.
That's a great democracy, free society if you cannot run as a third party.
You don't need money to talk to people, last time I checked when I come here talking my political views I am not charged $100 a post.
So talking to people with a grass roots campaign in Palestine is charged a fee?
And most Palestinians have the free time that you have, and a computer. :roll: Campaigns run without money are not noted for their success.

[Venom]

Quote: I've been told that many Israelis have an M-16
Good for them... they can afford to donate to political parties and have a weapon... :lol:
My point was that they clearly can afford weapons as every household has an AK.

Quote: Believe it or not what the US thinks is not what the world revolves around. And since it's an occupied country in which running water and electricity can't be counted on and suvival is a serious concern for most, it's not surprising that Palestinians have been unable to invent anything great or extraordinary or something like that.
Your right it's not the Palestinians fault that they choose to teach terrorism over science. It's the West' fault.

Quote: And how much power do they have in comparison to the Democrats and the Republicans? Not much.
And why is that? Because the majority of the United States is apparently ok with those two parties. So guess what... the majority of Palestine is ok with the Fatah and Hamas.... heck 70% of them voted apparently. That's a much higher percentage than in the US.

[quote]Because the only issue they could possibly have taken into consideration was whether the party supported terrorism. /quote]
Apparently it's their main concern. I'm glad to see parties that advocate diplomacy have really risen to the top. Oh wait they haven't :(

Quote: And most Palestinians have the free time that you have, and a computer
If 30% are unemployed then yes :) They don't have a job to go to.
Let's take a look at these boards. Saracen claims to live in Palestine does he not? Ok he has enough time to make an average of 36.89 posts a day, 12615 posts total and has been a member since Dec 2005.
Apparently some Palestinians certainly do have the time.

Quote: Campaigns run without money are not noted for their success
In the ME it appears that campaigns are based around how many guns you have rather than your money.
But please continue to feel sorry for the people that turned out in great numbers to vote in their government and then elected terrorists.

[agentkgb]

Venom wrote: Quote: Believe it or not what the US thinks is not what the world revolves around. And since it's an occupied country in which running water and electricity can't be counted on and suvival is a serious concern for most, it's not surprising that Palestinians have been unable to invent anything great or extraordinary or something like that.
Your right it's not the Palestinians fault that they choose to teach terrorism over science. It's the West' fault.
What do you expect from an occupied country? Major scientific breakthroughs? If the tables were turned and Israel was occupied the way Palestine is, if Israelis could not depend on having electricity or water or food when they woke up in the morning, there would likely be Israeli suicide bombers and a similar situation except the other way around.

Venom wrote: Quote: And how much power do they have in comparison to the Democrats and the Republicans? Not much.
And why is that? Because the majority of the United States is apparently ok with those two parties. So guess what... the majority of Palestine is ok with the Fatah and Hamas.... heck 70% of them voted apparently. That's a much higher percentage than in the US.
I would have voted for a third party yesterday but I didn't. That wasn't because I'm happy with the Democrats and the Republicans, it's because it is extremely unlikely that a third party will win so it makes sense to choose the party that better represents my views from the candidates who actually have a chance of winning, otherwise it's a wasted vote. If a third party that better represents my views actually gained momentum and a lot of people planned on voting for their candidate, I'd vote for that candidate too, but such a situation has yet to occur.

Venom wrote: Quote: Because the only issue they could possibly have taken into consideration was whether the party supported terrorism.
Apparently it's their main concern. I'm glad to see parties that advocate diplomacy have really risen to the top. Oh wait they haven't :(
Yeah there's no way that the occupation could have been the main concern.

Venom wrote: Quote: And most Palestinians have the free time that you have, and a computer
If 30% are unemployed then yes :) They don't have a job to go to.
Unemployment doesn't mean you suddenly no longer need things like calories. They still have to eat and their families still have to eat. It's only harder without a job.

Venom wrote: Quote: Campaigns run without money are not noted for their success
In the ME it appears that campaigns are based around how many guns you have rather than your money.
But please continue to feel sorry for the people that turned out in great numbers to vote in their government and then elected terrorists.
Who do you expect them to vote for? A mystical third party that rises out of the dust?

[slitedeviance]

agentkgb wrote: Who do you expect them to vote for? A mystical third party that rises out of the dust?

Apparently so...