Political Crossfire Forums

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 15233 Location: On Earth

Tepic wrote: Saracen wrote: Tepic wrote: Saracen wrote: The state, yes. The people, no. The Koran prophesised the fall of the Eastern Roman Empire as well. Did its people die? No.
Would it be nitpicky to say that as predictions go, it's safe to say every political structure falls eventually?

Yes.

How so? How many of today's political structures were around a thousand years ago ... two thousand ... ten thousand?

Not quite. Today's America was different from the America of 1776.

Tepic · Joined: 05 May 2006 Posts: 1278

Saracen wrote: Not quite. Today's America was different from the America of 1776.
Now I'm confused - are we agreeing or disagreeing? My point was that political systems, whether empires, states or ideologies, tend to disappear or change out of recognition over time.

Artie · Joined: 06 Nov 2006 Posts: 1

If 12-or 14-year old children were in school and not in the streets throwing rocks and firebombs, they would not be getting shot. It is sad and tragic that the Hezbollah and followers are willing to sacrifice such
young lives for the illusory dream of annihilating Israel. Compromise and peace are better alternatives than death and destruction from the fantasy of martyrdom.

Artie

slitedeviance · Joined: 02 Sep 2006 Posts: 1507

Hi Artie, welcome to tha' boards...

Artie wrote: [b]
If 12-or 14-year old children were in school and not in the streets throwing rocks and firebombs, they would not be getting shot. It is sad and tragic that the Hezbollah and followers are willing to sacrifice such
young lives for the illusory dream of annihilating Israel.

Fair enough point, but until the PA are in a position to pay for and provide an education that keeps them in school then it's not a viable alternative. There just simply aren't the funds or infrastructure in place for education to provide more than a basic learning programme.

Quote: Compromise and peace are better alternatives than death and destruction

Completely agreed!

prometeus · Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 1:37 pm Post subject: Re: israel still killing children

slitedeviance wrote: Fair enough point, but until the PA are in a position to pay for and provide an education that keeps them in school...

Maybe, just maybe if they spent their money on teachers instead of guns, explosives and such, they'd be able to do it. Or they could even ask for the billions stolen but Arafat...

slitedeviance · Joined: 02 Sep 2006 Posts: 1507

prometeus wrote: Maybe, just maybe if they spent their money on teachers instead of guns, explosives and such, they'd be able to do it.

And the populace who have no control over the finances of the state sort this how? Also don't forget, the money being spent on the weapons is PRIVATE money owned by Hamas etc. it is not public sector money there to provide money for education or health, despite the fact that Hamas still spends PRIVATE money on this in the way Hizbollah does.

Quote: Or they could even ask for the billions stolen but Arafat...

What? We all know Arafat stole their money, as have alot of Fatah officials. But you can't cite this as some kind of point against the population of Palestine, who recently removed Fatah from office having become sick of their corruption...

Venom · Joined: 06 Sep 2006 Posts: 807

Quote: Fair enough point, but until the PA are in a position to pay for and provide an education that keeps them in school then it's not a viable alternative. There just simply aren't the funds or infrastructure in place for education to provide more than a basic learning programme.
I'm not so sure that's entirely true. All those weapons and explosives they are purchasing are quite expensive. For the most basic school all they require is a building, some text books and a teacher. They seem able to provide that when they wish to preach hate about the Jews, but not when they wish to teach about the world from a real historical point of view.

Just noticed prometeus beat me to it :)

prometeus · Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 5:07 pm Post subject: Re: israel still killing children

slitedeviance wrote: And the populace who have no control over the finances of the state sort this how? Also don't forget, the money being spent on the weapons is PRIVATE money owned by Hamas etc. it is not public sector money there to provide money for education or health, despite the fact that Hamas still spends PRIVATE money on this in the way Hizbollah does.

If that is the best you can come up with so be it, but an excuse it does not make, nor does it reflect the reality of the situation. You are trying to make it appear as Hamas is some alien entity that somehow manages to control the "negative" aspects of Palestinian life, but it has no other tangetcy to it. Well it is not so. Hamas is made up of Palestinians, funny how their women can respond to their calls, but never ask something in return. I always maintained that a people's leadership is the reflection of the people at that point in time.

Venom · Joined: 06 Sep 2006 Posts: 807

Quote: And the populace who have no control over the finances of the state sort this how? Also don't forget, the money being spent on the weapons is PRIVATE money owned by Hamas etc. it is not public sector money there to provide money for education or health, despite the fact that Hamas still spends PRIVATE money on this in the way Hizbollah does
Hamas... the same group that is the leading political body elected to government by the people of Palestine?
The same Hamas?
Just making sure... because if Hamas was so for the people of Palestine I'm sure they'd find it in their hearts to turn some of that "private" money towards building schools instead of buying missiles.

slitedeviance · Joined: 02 Sep 2006 Posts: 1507

prometeus wrote: You are trying to make it appear as Hamas is some alien entity that somehow manages to control the "negative" aspects of Palestinian life, but it has no other tangetcy to it.

Huh?

Quote: Well it is not so. Hamas is made up of Palestinians, funny how their women can respond to their calls, but never ask something in return.

Huh?

agentkgb · Joined: 23 Aug 2006 Posts: 2241 Location: US

prometeus wrote: slitedeviance wrote: And the populace who have no control over the finances of the state sort this how? Also don't forget, the money being spent on the weapons is PRIVATE money owned by Hamas etc. it is not public sector money there to provide money for education or health, despite the fact that Hamas still spends PRIVATE money on this in the way Hizbollah does.

If that is the best you can come up with so be it, but an excuse it does not make, nor does it reflect the reality of the situation. You are trying to make it appear as Hamas is some alien entity that somehow manages to control the "negative" aspects of Palestinian life, but it has no other tangetcy to it. Well it is not so. Hamas is made up of Palestinians, funny how their women can respond to their calls, but never ask something in return. I always maintained that a people's leadership is the reflection of the people at that point in time.
I'm not sure what exactly you're saying but the fact that Hamas is made up of Palestinians does not mean that Palestinians are made up of Hamas.

prometeus · Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 9:50 am Post subject:

What you are trying top convince us is that Hamas is some kind if separate entity within the Palestinian populace. Well it is not. If the Palestinians can support Hamas, and the women can rush to their aid, even to their death then the Palestinians could ask, no demand, that the money they spend for weapons be spent on schools. So please stop sidestepping the issue, you know damn well that it is the case. If you can not at least admit to it, do not defend it. It is an affront to reasoned thinking.

agentkgb · Joined: 23 Aug 2006 Posts: 2241 Location: US

You can't say that Hamas and Palestinians are one and the same (well, you can say that, and it seems like you are, it just doesn't make sense). Most Palestinians are not Hamas militants.

prometeus · Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 10:16 am Post subject:

agentkgb wrote: Most Palestinians are not Hamas militants.

...just supporters. You forgot to mention that.

agentkgb · Joined: 23 Aug 2006 Posts: 2241 Location: US

prometeus wrote: agentkgb wrote: Most Palestinians are not Hamas militants.

...just supporters. You forgot to mention that.
Most westerners support their governments in the war the governments fight, even paying for them, "war is terrorism with a bigger budget." It's all in how you look at things I guess.

slitedeviance · Joined: 02 Sep 2006 Posts: 1507

prometeus wrote: What you are trying top convince us is that Hamas is some kind if separate entity within the Palestinian populace. Well it is not. If the Palestinians can support Hamas, and the women can rush to their aid, even to their death then the Palestinians could ask, no demand, that the money they spend for weapons be spent on schools. So please stop sidestepping the issue, you know damn well that it is the case. If you can not at least admit to it, do not defend it. It is an affront to reasoned thinking.

I'm not trying to convince you of anything and Hamas is clearly a seperate entity to the Palestinian people as a whole. It is a political and militant organisation, which operates in Palestine with the support of a majority of the Palestinian people, that does not make it THE people.

I cannot believe this discussion has suddenly turned into a yard stick for the Palestinian people as a whole. I simply stated that money spent of firearms etc. (and I'd be interested to see what this amounts to) is not public money, therefore it is down to Hamas as an organisation to spend it as they see fit. They do not decide how Hamas spend their own private funds, in the same way the general population in the US can decide how the DNC spend their private funds. There is simply no connection between Hamas being in power and the private coffers they spend on weaponry. If they were not in power they would still be spending this money on arms.

Now you can turn round and claim that if they were to spend all this money on schools the problem of kids throwing rocks would be removed as they would be getting an education. This is a false claim. The reason for Palestinians throwing these rocks is not because they cannot spell too well, or they lack basic math, it's because Merkavas pile down their streets. It is because they exist under occupation. To try and turn it round into some kind of oroborus situation whrerein the money spent on weapons leads to more stone throwers which leads to more militants who use these weapons purchased is to try and deny the existence of the occupation. It is not a closed system.

Venom · Joined: 06 Sep 2006 Posts: 807

Quote: Most westerners support their governments in the war the governments fight, even paying for them, "war is terrorism with a bigger budget." It's all in how you look at things I guess.
I guess, however I don't see large protests against Hamas military action in Palestine all the time. Nor do I see US citizens literally dancing in the streets when a bunch of Palestinians die. While I do believe the people of the US are responsible through their elections, I don't see them all as "supporters" on the level of dancing Palistinians.

Slite
Quote: which operates in Palestine with the support of a majority of the Palestinian people, that does not make it THE people.
No but it makes it the majority of the people. It's not like Palestinians didn't know that Hamas operated using terrorism prior to their election.

slitedeviance · Joined: 02 Sep 2006 Posts: 1507

Venom wrote: No but it makes it the majority of the people. It's not like Palestinians didn't know that Hamas operated using terrorism prior to their election.

Agreed. But as we all know they had the choice of voting for one of two terrorist organisations, which must have been awesome fun for people who support the occupation as they're damned if they vote for Hamas, damned if they vote for Fatah and damned if they don't vote seeing as having a democratically elected government was one of the landmarks of the road map.

Go figure...

Venom · Joined: 06 Sep 2006 Posts: 807

Quote: Agreed. But as we all know they had the choice of voting for one of two terrorist organisations, which must have been awesome fun for people who support the occupation as they're damned if they vote for Hamas, damned if they vote for Fatah and damned if they don't vote seeing as having a democratically elected government was one of the landmarks of the road map.

Go figure...
Hrmm go figure that if Palestine is a democracy as you all have stated that anyone could have run for office could they not? If there was any sort of % of Palestinians against the terrorism why didn't they run? Check the United States and you'll find there are a hundreds of Presidentail canidates across the country. You can actually right them in on the ballot in the United States. Can Palestine not have done this? Were they unable to actually set up a 3rd party to run for government? If so then they are hardly a democracy, but rather a population ruled by force rather than words.

agentkgb · Joined: 23 Aug 2006 Posts: 2241 Location: US

Venom wrote: Quote: Agreed. But as we all know they had the choice of voting for one of two terrorist organisations, which must have been awesome fun for people who support the occupation as they're damned if they vote for Hamas, damned if they vote for Fatah and damned if they don't vote seeing as having a democratically elected government was one of the landmarks of the road map.

Go figure...
Hrmm go figure that if Palestine is a democracy as you all have stated that anyone could have run for office could they not? If there was any sort of % of Palestinians against the terrorism why didn't they run? Check the United States and you'll find there are a hundreds of Presidentail canidates across the country. You can actually right them in on the ballot in the United States. Can Palestine not have done this? Were they unable to actually set up a 3rd party to run for government? If so then they are hardly a democracy, but rather a population ruled by force rather than words.
When was the last time a third party was at all successful in the United States? Two-party systems don't change just like that...