Political Crossfire Forums

[agentkgb]

Venom wrote: Quote: If that was directed at me then no, I was not aware I had done so. What are you talking about?
Got you confused with Spartan... wooops.
No problem.

[superskippy]

Quote: Phosphorus bombs have been used on civilians during the previous israeli invasion of lebanon, and have affected several during the latest conflict.

They havent been used on civilians, civilians have been affected by them. A distinct difference, and though it may sounds heartless I have ask, so what? Why does it matter so much more if it was a phospherus weapon than a high explosive that could blow off your legs?

[unclesamual]

Quote: What are these undercover troops used for? What have they done?

Quote: Also on Wednesday, Israeli undercover operatives killed three Palestinians in the Tulkarm refugee camp, according to Israeli news sources. According to the reports, one of the dead, Ribhi Amara, was a leader of Islamic Jihad, the militant Palestinian faction.
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/082505E.shtml

Quote: Israeli undercover troops are now following up with a second round of detentions of heads of the Hamas A-Dawa clerical, recruitment, education and social welfare institutions.
http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=1181

Quote: Undercover units of the Israeli army have been responsible for over 120 killings in the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip since 1988. Many of the victims were shot while posing no serious imminent threat to soldiers or others. Through interviews with soldiers, court transcripts, analysis of the open-fire regulations and seventeen case studies from 1992-1993, we charge in A License to Kill that unjustified killings by undercover units are not aberrations; rather they constitute a pattern that could only continue with the complicity of the Israeli government.
http://www.politicalcrossfire.com/forum/posting.php?mode=reply&t=68078

Quote: In Jenin, four wanted Fatah militants were killed by undercover Border Police troops.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_in_the_Israeli-Palestinian_conflict_2004

Quote: Law is regrets the loss of life. It is concerned that Israel instructed the operatives to go into Ramallah at this time of significant tension. It is also concerned that Israel may have re-launched a campaign of undercover executions, a military practice that was consistently employed throughout the Intifada.
http://www.addameer.org/september2000/pressreleases/thursday12october.html

Quote: "Israel's elite commando undercover squads, or 'Mista'arvim,' have been one of its most effective, albeit controversial, tools" in the effort to crush Hamas and the Islamic Jihad. Such "undercover units [have been] a staple of special operations since long before the Jewish state came into existence."
http://intellit.muskingum.edu/israel_folder/israel00s.html

They are doing plenty.

[superskippy]

A damn good job is what they have been doing like they did the other day, Israel owes them a lot.

[nrhy]

Venom wrote: Quote: Phosphorus bombs have been used on civilians during the previous israeli invasion of lebanon, and have affected several during the latest conflict.
So not the IDF is not allowed to use a legal weapon?

Quote: As far as the hiding among civilians issue for Hezbollah. Israel uses undercover troops.
The fact of having "undercover troops" is like Hezbollah using all of southern Lebanon as a civilian mask? I don't believe most people will agree with this.

What are these undercover troops used for? What have they done?

they are not legal when inflicted on civilians, buddy...and that's exactly what happened.

Hizbullah doesn't hide among lebanese civilians, it wouldn't make sense, since the reason Israel is having a hard time spotting its enemy is because nobody, including the locals, have an idea where the hizbullah members reside.

[MoscowMatt]

nrhy wrote: .

Hizbullah doesn't hide among lebanese civilians,

Oh really?? Then explain all the civilian casualties then? Are you trying to say Israel were directly targeting civilians? :roll: If they were then the would have flattened the whole of Beirut in one bombing raid.

Or perhaps these civilians that died were actually in the vicinity of Hezbollah? :think:

[nrhy]

MoscowMatt wrote: nrhy wrote: .

Hizbullah doesn't hide among lebanese civilians,

Oh really?? Then explain all the civilian casualties then? Are you trying to say Israel were directly targeting civilians? :roll: If they were then the would have flattened the whole of Beirut in one bombing raid.

Or perhaps these civilians that died were actually in the vicinity of Hezbollah? :think:

ey buddy, explain to me why the civilian death tolls were high during the civilwar? several buildings bombed by israel were hospitals and civilian communities (NONE OCCUPIED BY PLO). Israel has a tendancy to kill the wrong people. They have done it before and are doing it again. I personally believe that they are trying to inflict as much damage as possible on the lebanese people.

The civilian casualties simply prove that Israel has no f*cking clue what they are shooting at.

[MoscowMatt]

nrhy wrote: The civilian casualties simply prove that Israel has no f*cking clue what they are shooting at.

Well if the militants will dress as civilians what do you expect?!! I saw on another thread posted recently that under the Geneva convention combatants are supposed to distinguish themselves from civilians to prevent occurrences like this!

Care to comment?!!

[nrhy]

MoscowMatt wrote: nrhy wrote: The civilian casualties simply prove that Israel has no f*cking clue what they are shooting at.

Well if the militants will dress as civilians what do you expect?!! I saw on another thread posted recently that under the Geneva convention combatants are supposed to distinguish themselves from civilians to prevent occurrences like this!

Care to comment?!!

there is no proof advocating the use of civilian instalations by hizbullah. But there is overhelming evidence opposing your claims.

Notice they weren´t accused by any agency for violating any laws...I wonder why :lol:

[mendosan]

nrhy wrote: MoscowMatt wrote: nrhy wrote: The civilian casualties simply prove that Israel has no f*cking clue what they are shooting at.

Well if the militants will dress as civilians what do you expect?!! I saw on another thread posted recently that under the Geneva convention combatants are supposed to distinguish themselves from civilians to prevent occurrences like this!

Care to comment?!!

there is no proof advocating the use of civilian instalations by hizbullah. But there is overhelming evidence opposing your claims.

Notice they weren´t accused by any agency for violating any laws...I wonder why :lol:

I think he means combatants have to be dressed diffrently from the civillian population ie, a uniform. In order to protect the civillian population from being mistaken for combatants. Faluire to do so is a war cime acording to the Geneva convention.

[mendosan]

Quote: civilian status

Feigning of civilian or non-combatant status is perfidy and prohibited by the Geneva Conventions. (Protocol I. Art. 37, Sec. 1)

From the Geneva convention thread.

[MoscowMatt]

nrhy wrote: MoscowMatt wrote: nrhy wrote: The civilian casualties simply prove that Israel has no f*cking clue what they are shooting at.

Well if the militants will dress as civilians what do you expect?!! I saw on another thread posted recently that under the Geneva convention combatants are supposed to distinguish themselves from civilians to prevent occurrences like this!

Care to comment?!!

there is no proof advocating the use of civilian instalations by hizbullah. But there is overhelming evidence opposing your claims.

Notice they weren´t accused by any agency for violating any laws...I wonder why :lol:

And there was me thinking Amnesty International were very critical of Hezbollah.Something about firing rockets at civilians.... ring a bell does it?!!

Oh I noticed you couldn't actually answer my question and went on some tangent about Hezbollah not using civilian installations!!

I'm wondering if such a blatant fallacy warrants a reply!!

So where's this overwhelming eveidence of yours then? Care to share it with us? After all as it is so overwhelming you should be able to find it easily!!

[nrhy]

Quote: Well if the militants will dress as civilians what do you expect?!! I saw on another thread posted recently that under the Geneva convention combatants are supposed to distinguish themselves from civilians to prevent occurrences like this!

Where is the question? There is nothing to answer to this post, since I was arguing that they did not use the lebanese as human shields.

Quote: So where's this overwhelming eveidence of yours then? Care to share it with us? After all as it is so overwhelming you should be able to find it easily!!

hrw.org/english/docs/2006/08/22/lebano14061.htm

and there are a list of them in this link

These are sources proving that hizbullah did not use civilians as human shields, nor did they remain within their homes for protection.

Quote: I think he means combatants have to be dressed diffrently from the civillian population ie, a uniform. In order to protect the civillian population from being mistaken for combatants. Faluire to do so is a war cime acording to the Geneva convention.

hizbullah has its own fatigues, which do not resemble (unless you can´t differantiate between a GI´s uniform to that of an american) ordinary civilian clothwear.

Quote: And there was me thinking Amnesty International were very critical of Hezbollah.Something about firing rockets at civilians.... ring a bell does it?!!
yes i know, they were also accused for firing several cluster rockets. This sounds like a "he did it too !" comeback.... :lol:

[unclesamual]

Quote: Oh really?? Then explain all the civilian casualties then? Are you trying to say Israel were directly targeting civilians? Rolling Eyes If they were then the would have flattened the whole of Beirut in one bombing raid.

They probably wouldn't be as blatant about it as that. Even so, Israel has 420 attack jets and 113 attack helicopters. Hardly something that could flatten a city of 1.5 million people in one bombing raid (assuming no nuclear weapons). It took 63 days for Russia to level Warsaw in the Warsaw uprising.

Anyways, besides countering the exageration of how powerful the Israeli military is. I want to point out that according to another article recently posted on this forum, the Israelis started suspecting that Hezbollah were in civilian areas because their bombings of the hezbollah bunkers didn't stop the rocket attacks. In all reality, they didn't know where all the bunkers were that supplied them and whatnot. Civilians got killed because Israel was getting desperate with coming up with things to hit to stop Hezbollah.

here is the article: http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/HJ12Ak01.html

Quote: Well if the militants will dress as civilians what do you expect?!! I saw on another thread posted recently that under the Geneva convention combatants are supposed to distinguish themselves from civilians to prevent occurrences like this!

Israel uses tactics of undercover operatives. Israelis have their own non-uniformed militias in the West Bank.

[superskippy]

Quote: They probably wouldn't be as blatant about it as that. Even so, Israel has 420 attack jets and 113 attack helicopters. Hardly something that could flatten a city of 1.5 million people in one bombing raid

Well we could come pretty damn close and if we couldnt thats simply because the US is one of the few nations that maintains a true strategic bomber force thats capable of dropping the sheer tonnage of bombs to flatten cities.

Quote: It took 63 days for Russia to level Warsaw in the Warsaw uprising.

Russia didnt crush the Warsaw uprising, the Germans did and they spent weeks fighting in the streets with thousands of troops killed not flattening the city though in the course of the fighting most of the city was brought to ruin.

[unclesamual]

Quote: Russia didnt crush the Warsaw uprising, the Germans did and they spent weeks fighting in the streets with thousands of troops killed not flattening the city though in the course of the fighting most of the city was brought to ruin.

oppps...I always confuse the Nazis with the Soviets...they are just so similar.

Quote: Well we could come pretty damn close and if we couldnt thats simply because the US is one of the few nations that maintains a true strategic bomber force thats capable of dropping the sheer tonnage of bombs to flatten cities.

With 1.5 million people, and me guessing in the high range at 100 people per building, that means there are 15,000 buildings to destroy. So, an attack force of 500 or so will destroy 30 buildings each unit in one bombing raid? They don't carry that many bombs. It would take atleast 10 bombing trips to flatten Bierut assuming they have the necessary number of munitions to do the job (don't come asking for United States resupply during this little operation. I do remember Israel asking for more bombs during the conflict.).

[superskippy]

A few well placed bombs and rockets can completely level a neighborhood, I think you underestimate the accuracy and explosive power of modern munitions. Give me 4 jets and a gunship and I can level a few neighborhoods in two hours.

[unclesamual]

I used a number of 100 people per building. conceptually, those are multi-story apartment buildings. It would take a 1000-2000 pound bomb each. f-16s can carry a couple of them. If they are smaller structures, 100 people is a neighbourhood. So, again, I stand by my assertion that it would take atleast 10 trips with all of Israel's aircraft to level Beirut not considering a limited munition supply.

[superskippy]

To completely level the city? Well 10 trips might be optimistic at best you need a true strategic bomber force to completely flatten a city, but if you mean to bring ruin to a city destroy a large amount of buildings and reduce the bulk of it to rubble and kill a large amount of people a single fly over would do.

[MoscowMatt]

unclesamual wrote:

oppps...I always confuse the Nazis with the Soviets...they are just so similar.


The Nazi's were nothing like the Soviets. The only similarities are they both caused the deaths of millions and were oppressive regimes. The ideologies of each were totally different.