Political Crossfire Forums

[Lucky Luke]

Mikate8 wrote: Hey somebody, I need some help because statistics seem like a lot of crap to me, especially when theyre confusing. I mean, theyre homicides I know that, but how come theres decimals, a kid getting shot to death only counts as .3 or something? Why not just put total homicides?

Whats more confusing is that the numbers of homicides in certain CITIES are HIGHER than the homicide rate for our WHOLE COUNTRY. That seems as if they used alot of Guess-timation.
USA


55.4

New York


80.8

San Francisco


82.6

Washington DC


427.8

Even if you go look at the link, we're doing a hell of a lot better than Russian and South Africa. Estonia? What have they got going for them.
Yea I also can't find how they've put all these numbers together.
Hey wait a minute, it doesnt even tell you how the homicides were done. This thing isn't even relevant, the topic is about gun control, not knife control or blunt object control, or strangulation control. Its about crazy people who want to put laws against inanimate objects and not the criminals who use them.

Well then Lucky Luke if you wanna do it that way fine. Look at Washington D.C. They have lots of homicides over there, and the criminals run around killing lots of people, why? Because in Washington DC they have the most strict gun control laws in the country. You can't buy a handgun or own one unless its stuck in a safe and or disassembled. Ok? When someone is confronted by some thugs that want to rob that person, they could either
A) Roll into a ball while getting beaten
B) Roll into a ball, get beat and then killed
Or C) Pull out a gun and shoot the assailants. (That simple)
Oh yea I forgot one other possibility, we'll say its D) Call the police on your cell phone, then get beaten and killed while waiting for help

And heres that statistics link http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2005/12/13133031/30384


This is not confusing, those are not numbers of homicides but homicide rates.

Quote: Homicides per million population (average per year 2000-2002)

Homicide rates are always higher in large cities than for the whole of a country Mikate8, please read the link again.

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[Mikate8]

You know what, i'm not going to read the link again. I'm just going to use the homicide rate for the WHOLE COUNTRY and not individual cities. There, makes things alot easier and I feel safer too. You wanna know why Lucky Luke? Because if you knew anything about the gun Legislation in New York, San Francisco and DC you'd know that people aren't allowed to defend themselves with guns. Criminals are allowed to kill people with guns though, because laws telling criminals not to carry guns is as useful as telling a crack addict to just stop.
But am I actually safer? Yes I am because in a short amount of time i'll hopefully be buying a gun so I can enjoy one of my GUARANTEED RIGHTS.

Everyone who wants to make fun of countries where law abiding citizens aren't allowed to defend themselves should go to this website because they have all sorts of funny links.
http://www.angelfire.com/pa/sergeman/issues/firearms/control.html

[Lucky Luke]

Mikate8 wrote: You know what, i'm not going to read the link again. I'm just going to use the homicide rate for the WHOLE COUNTRY and not individual cities. There, makes things alot easier and I feel safer too. You wanna know why Lucky Luke? Because if you knew anything about the gun Legislation in New York, San Francisco and DC you'd know that people aren't allowed to defend themselves with guns. Criminals are allowed to kill people with guns though, because laws telling criminals not to carry guns is as useful as telling a crack addict to just stop.
But am I actually safer? Yes I am because in a short amount of time i'll hopefully be buying a gun so I can enjoy one of my GUARANTEED RIGHTS.

Everyone who wants to make fun of countries where law abiding citizens aren't allowed to defend themselves should go to this website because they have all sorts of funny links.
http://www.angelfire.com/pa/sergeman/issues/firearms/control.html

You can choose to ignore the facts and to follow your emotion Mikate8, this is your right.

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[Mikate8]

Ok I will follow my emotions Lucky Luke. They are to stay away from you and France.
Take a look at this http://www.guardian.co.uk/france/story/0,11882,1608024,00.html

French Police get fired upon by Youths. Yea France looks real safe to be in. Criminals have guns but citizens aren't allowed any. See the simpleness in that Lucky Luke

[wyldejackyl]

Lucky Luke wrote:

70% of murders are with firearms in America and in America only Wyldejackyl, if most of them are illegal weapons or I would suggest legal weapons in criminal hands, American gun control laws need to get a hell tougher laws to keep guns legal or not out of criminals or wannabe criminals hands.

Safer from getting murdered Wyldejackyl, 2 to 4 times safer in Europe than America Wyldejackyl.

BTW I did not say I feel safer, I wrote that I am.

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Lucky Luke do you notice that when you get excited or angry at people, you really start using their name in your accusations? Lucky Luke this is not a good tactic and I wonder why you do this so much (Lucky Luke). But anyway..

You claim that 70% of murders in america are with firearms, but your chart DOES NOT CLAIM that. It only indicates the amount of homicides. Second your claim of "only in America" pertains to a) people get murdered, b) people are murdered at a high rate, c) 70% of homicides are committed by firearms, or d) the rates are high because of firearms. I'm guessing you mean (d) and I'll ask how you determine this (don't bother reposting, I've seen all your "data" anyway. I'm sure lilwolf has seen it all as well.).

Legal weapons in criminal hands DO NOT contribute majorly to the amount of violent crime in this country. You cannot and have never proven this fact, because it's not true. Plus your assertion of "wannabe criminals" is false. There is no way to determine who will be a criminal and who won't be, until they actually do something. Operating any sort of enforcement on this principle is paramount to prosecution for "thoughtcrime" which brings on an Orwellian nightmare that goes against the constitution we all hold dear. If you want to forsake your rights as a human over there in Frogland..go ahead. Try not to tell us what we really need to do here, as it has little to do with gun control.

Where did you get your 2-4 times safer figure? I think there are WAY too many variables for you to include such a blanket statement. Averages don't tell all.

[Jefferson]

Get over it you anti-gun kooks.

A society armed to the teeth has nothing to do with how much crime a country has. If that were so Switzerland would be a country with blood running in the streets.

Crime is more an indication of poverty, education, and social unrest. It is not about guns.

[lilwolf]

LL needs to set down and watch this video and it will make it all better for him :lol: :lol: :lol:




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4IvKTDE2Js&mode=related&search=


He love this vid and it's all for him :rotf:

[Lucky Luke]

Mikate8 wrote: Ok I will follow my emotions Lucky Luke. They are to stay away from you and France.
Take a look at this http://www.guardian.co.uk/france/story/0,11882,1608024,00.html

French Police get fired upon by Youths. Yea France looks real safe to be in. Criminals have guns but citizens aren't allowed any. See the simpleness in that Lucky Luke

There is no reasoning someone who chooses to follow his emotions instead of the facts.

May be you wish to compare the rate of police officers murdered in America to the one murdered in France or Britain Mikate8? Be ready for a shock. the facts will contradict your emotion on the matter.

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[Mikate8]

LL I don't know how you can feel safe when criminals can get hold of guns when ordinary citizens in France are not allowed to carry handguns at all.
I guess you'll stop feeling smug when you become a victim.

[Lucky Luke]

Mikate8 wrote: LL I don't know how you can feel safe when criminals can get hold of guns when ordinary citizens in France are not allowed to carry handguns at all.
I guess you'll stop feeling smug when you become a victim.

I don't know if ordinary citizens are not allowed to carry handguns in France but I know that here in Scotland we even can't own one and yet you will be surprised to know that we have twice less chances to be murdered in Scotland than in the US.

I don't know who feels safer but I know who is Mikate8 and it isn't people living in the US. Follow your emotions if you wish but I shall remind you of the facts.

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[Blinky]

Mikate8 wrote: LL I don't know how you can feel safe when criminals can get hold of guns when ordinary citizens in France are not allowed to carry handguns at all.
I guess you'll stop feeling smug when you become a victim.

If what you are "feeling" were true, your country would be the safest in the industrialised world. The fact that it is not should tell you something.

[Lucky Luke]

Jefferson wrote: Get over it you anti-gun kooks.

A society armed to the teeth has nothing to do with how much crime a country has. If that were so Switzerland would be a country with blood running in the streets.

Crime is more an indication of poverty, education, and social unrest. It is not about guns.

The level of crime has nothing to do with guns or gun control Jefferson, less than 1% of all crimes are committed with guns, what made you think that it did?

Crime is indeed measured with the level of poverty, education, and social unrest, one might add the degree of urbanisation which is the first and main factor of crime. Switzerland is a very rich, educated, quiet and rural country, no surprises there.

What is your point Jefferson?

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[wyldejackyl]

So now you're saying less than 1% of crimes are committed with guns? Does that include the 1% of your "homicide rate" chart too?

[Mikate8]

The reason i'm safe is because the criminal that might want to rob and invade our home doesn't know if we're armed or not. Thats what keeps them out. Maybe people who don't like guns should put signs in front of their homes. "This is a gun free home"

Please, I know you anti-gun people want big signs like these in front of your homes. If you want i'll make them for you, in big clearly legible letters too.

[Lucky Luke]

wyldejackyl wrote: So now you're saying less than 1% of crimes are committed with guns? Does that include the 1% of your "homicide rate" chart too?

Try to follow Wyldejacky less that 1% of crimes are committed with guns, 70% of homicides in America are committed with guns, only 10% of homicides in Europe are committed with guns.

This is why guns and gun control have very little to do with crimes but a lot to do with homicides in America.
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[Blinky]

Mikate8 wrote: The reason i'm safe is because the criminal that might want to rob and invade our home doesn't know if we're armed or not. Thats what keeps them out.

So there is no burglary or home invasion in the United States? That must be comforting.
Yeah, youre really safe.

[Lucky Luke]

Mikate8 wrote: The reason i'm safe is because the criminal that might want to rob and invade our home doesn't know if we're armed or not. Thats what keeps them out. Maybe people who don't like guns should put signs in front of their homes. "This is a gun free home"

Please, I know you anti-gun people want big signs like these in front of your homes. If you want i'll make them for you, in big clearly legible letters too.

It doesn't work as well as you think Mikate8:

You have 1.11364 more chances to be robbed in the UK than in the US.

Quote: Robberies (per capita) by country
United Kingdom 1.57433 per 1,000 people
United States 1.38527 per 1,000 people
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rob_percap-crime-robberies-per-capita


You have 1.01469 more chances to be assaulted in the US than in the UK.

Quote: Assaults (per capita) by country
United States 7.56923 per 1,000 people
United Kingdom 7.45959 per 1,000 people
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_ass_percap-crime-assaults-per-capita

You have 2.11939 more chances to be raped in the US than in the UK.

Quote: Rapes (per capita) by country
United States 0.301318 per 1,000 people
United Kingdom 0.142172 per 1,000 people
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_percap-crime-rapes-per-capita

You have 3.043524 more chances to be murdered in the US than in the UK.

Quote: Murders (per capita) by country
United States 0.042802 per 1,000 people
United Kingdom 0.0140633 per 1,000 people
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

Where is the safer place to live Mikate8?

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[Mikate8]

Well robberies and assault aren't that much different and I doubt i'm gonna get raped anytime soon and since murders are below .04 per thousand, then i'm pretty much safe in America, I guess a teensy bit less than England, but at least I didn't have to worry about Hitler

[Bonobo]

Mikate8 wrote: LL I don't know how you can feel safe when criminals can get hold of guns when ordinary citizens in France are not allowed to carry handguns at all.
I guess you'll stop feeling smug when you become a victim.


It appears you kep on missing the blindingly obvious.

Wether deliberate or not, I'll try to make it more obvious.

When you enforce gun control, gun's become contyraband, something that people are almost shocked at seeing. They aren't in public circulation, and to get one you have to be a serious criminal as it were.

Compare this to the case where guns are widespread and a 13 year old who wants to impress his new found gun buddies can go and find one from any one of his friends' parents' rooms.

For this reason your argument of 'criminals still get guns and citizens don't' is rather irrelevant. Only the top tier of criminals get them, meaning their use is far far lower than in countries with tighter gun control, meaning lives are saved, both of the criminals and the victims.

However I fully expect all this logic to be ignored in favour of 'BUT IT'S RIGHT YA HEAR?!'

[Mikate8]

Well if the parents were smart they'd have a trigger lock or a gun safe when you have kids in the house.

Only the top tier of criminals get guns too? Then why in France are poor immigrants getting guns and shooting at the police?

Guns get smuggled into countries illegally, gun control laws won't stop them