Political Crossfire Forums

[The Comrade]

Blinky wrote:

Britboy was talking about hissy fits. You seem to be very touchy when it comes to people talking about your apparent confusion over your country/location thingy.

Remember when I mentioned it? I got this:

Comrade the Comic Genius wrote: "And thanks for pointing that out to me proffesor geography. i had no idea that zagreb wasn't in yugoslavia. you should teach at the college of smart for being so intelligent. like i have no idea how you could possibly know something like that. you shouldn't be posting on here, you should be running for mr. smart of the smart galaxy in the smart universe."

My, very touchy indeed.
Unless you're not confused about recent European history and its all some sort of wildly controversial tongue-in-cheek political in-joke designed to have people point it out so you can exercise that brilliant sarcasm muscle of yours?
Damn, I feel like such a fool now that I realised I fell for the trap of pointing it out. Damn you comrade and your razor sharp wit.

the reason i get "touchy" is people bring it up like they think it means something. oh wow you know something about the balkans, amazing. what does that have to do with the topic at hand, and furthermore, big deal?

when you give me a one liner followed by "OH YEA LOL YUGOSLAVIA ISN'T EVEN A COUNTRY ROFL" i instantly lose all respect for you. the fact that you bring yugoslavia into an argument that is not at all about the country just shows a complete and utter lack of rational thought and ability to discuss something maturely.

it's basically like saying "YEAH WELL I KNOW SOMETHING YOU DON'T, SO HAH!"

as far as i know we're all big boys here and we all got out of the third grade.

and considering you, and your anti-gun posse have brought up yugoslavia, it shows your arguments have broken down considerably. britboy failed to even make an argument, and you merely jumped on the band wagon. and your posterchild ardent has yet to respond to what i've said, or make a valid point.

and then when i ask how my argument has been defeated and i have been "embaressed" you once again bring up yugoslavia, like it means something. then you talk about my sarcasm, as if it gives you some bargaining chip in this discussion.

in laymans terms, you and the anti-gun group have utteraly failed, once again, to make any headway in proving that guns cause crime. you can't even copy and past the right numbers to show an incrase, let alone use english to prove it.

but no, you go right a head and makde a point of me being "touchy" about my "confusion" over yugoslavia. it really shows that you have quite a base for anti-gun stance and is very mature.

[Blinky]

The Comrade wrote:

the reason i get "touchy" is people bring it up like they think it means something. oh wow you know something about the balkans, amazing. what does that have to do with the topic at hand, and furthermore, big deal?

You're right. It has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Much like bullfighting had nothing to do with Kangaroo boxing which is when this whole row started.

Quote: when you give me a one liner followed by "OH YEA LOL YUGOSLAVIA ISN'T EVEN A COUNTRY ROFL" i instantly lose all respect for you. the fact that you bring yugoslavia into an argument that is not at all about the country just shows a complete and utter lack of rational thought and ability to discuss something maturely.

I never said that. Neither did Ardent. Don't tell me there have been others too?!


Quote: it's basically like saying "YEAH WELL I KNOW SOMETHING YOU DON'T, SO HAH!"

as far as i know we're all big boys here and we all got out of the third grade.

and considering you, and your anti-gun posse have brought up yugoslavia, it shows your arguments have broken down considerably. britboy failed to even make an argument, and you merely jumped on the band wagon. and your posterchild ardent has yet to respond to what i've said, or make a valid point.


Ardent did reply to you. He said:
ardent wrote: No it's not if you had bothered to read it properly it
includes the latest figures for 2006.

There's no much room to move from there, is there?

Quote: and then when i ask how my argument has been defeated and i have been "embaressed" you once again bring up yugoslavia,

No, I didn't.




So tell us all Comrade - why do you have Zagreb, Yugoslavia as your location/country? Your sense of irony/humour/whatever-you-wanna-call-it is clearly beyond the comprehension of anybody else on political crossfire. Why don't you enlighten everyone as to the intellectual genius behind it?

I don't think there is an intellectual genius behind it - I stand by my original theory of it being a tongue-in-cheek political in-joke designed to get responses. But please correct me if I'm wrong.

[The Comrade]

croatia was a city in the former yugoslavia, correct?

my country is yugoslavia, correct?




now are you going to geton topic, or just be a dick?

[Ardent]

thefranzkafkafront wrote: Ardent wrote: lilwolf wrote: I would say that gun control by a dictator worked pretty well. Somewhere between 6 and 12 million jews are dead and millions all over europe do to dictators and their gun controls.



The Russians had guns and a standing army, and over
20 million of them died.

Lovely, you see the important thing there is that your average joe russian wasunt allowed guns because he could use them to harm his goverment.

Standing armies taint got nowght to do with it.

The population of Russia was 109 million in 1939, and during
the war every available male was conscripted in to the armed
forces, while women farmed the land and manned industry.

More than a third of the Russian population were in the armed
forces.

The Red Army drafted a staggering 29,574,900 in addition to the 4,826,907 in service at the beginning of the war. Of these it lost 6,329,600 KIA, 555,400 deaths by disease and 4,559,000 MIA (most captured). Of these 11,444,100, however, 939,700 re-joined the ranks in the subsequently-liberated Soviet territory, and a further 1,836,000 returned from German captivity. Thus the grand total of losses amounted to 8,668,400. The majority of the losses comprised ethnic Russians (5,756,000), followed by ethnic Ukrainians (1,377,400).

The German losses on the Eastern Front comprised an estimated 3,604,800 KIA/MIA (most killed) and 3,576,300 captured (total 7,181,100); the losses of the German satellites on the Eastern Front approximated 668,163 KIA/MIA and 799,982 captured (total 1,468,145). Of these 8,649,300, the Soviets released 3,572,600 from captivity after the war, thus the grand total of the Axis losses came to an estimated 5,076,700.

[perdidochas]

Ardent wrote: Germany, France, the UK etc all have very strict gun
controls. You can't own a gun for self defence, you can't
have a gun in your house for self defence purposes.
you can't own automatic weapons and to get a gun you
have to be subject to doctors reports and mental health
checks, as well as having to give a good reason why
you need to own a gun. There is not that much difference
between British Gun Laws and those of our European
Neighbours.

http://www.time.com/time/europe/magazine/2002/0513/guns/laws.html

So how come Germany and continental Europe, have such
low crime rates?????????????? \

They don't. Overall crime rates are about the same between Europe and the U.S. In fact, IIRC, violent crime may be less in the U.S. Property crime is less in the U.S. Murder, however, is higher in the U.S.

The main difference is difference in cultures. Compared to the U.S. most European countries are pretty homogeneous racially and culturally.

[perdidochas]

Ardent wrote: The Comrade wrote: Ardent wrote: Per Capita (as a percentage of population) Germany
has one of the lowest crime rates in the world.


you do know americas crime rate is falling right?

Really, thats news to me.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-08-30-violent-crimes_x.htm


Here's some real statistics from the DOJ:

Violent Crime rates 1973-2005

Rape Rates 1973-2005

Assault rates 1973-2005

Robbery rates 1973-2005

[perdidochas]

thundertaker wrote: superskippy wrote: More people have died by the gun in Europe by far this century then in America.

I suspect that is an absolute lie and I bet you 50 quid you cannot come up with any reliable statistics proving that as a fact........

OK,

WWI--about 10 million deaths, let's assume half are gun deaths, that's 5 million killed by guns.
WWII--Germany had 5.5 million casualties, the Soviet Union had 10 million casualties (military alone). Again, let's assume half are gun deaths (assuming cannons are guns), we have 7.5 million deaths there.

Just that quick calculation gives us over 10 million deaths in Europe by guns in the last century (using a low calculation)

For quick calculation sake, let's assume that the 100 yrs of the 20th century all had gun deaths of 30,000 a year (that is a little lower than peak in the 1980s, but a high estimate for most of the century, and includes suicides by gun). Thats 3 million (using a high calculation)

Just seat of the pants calculation shows us that Superskippy is pretty much right. Wars kill so many more people than do crime.

[perdidochas]

The Comrade wrote: croatia was a city in the former yugoslavia, correct?

my country is yugoslavia, correct?




now are you going to geton topic, or just be a dick?

Comrade, you need to study more.

Croatia was a region of Yugoslavia. It is now a separate state.

Zagreb was the capitol of the Croatian region of Yugoslavia, and now is the capitol of the country of Croatia.

[The Comrade]

perdidochas wrote:

Comrade, you need to study more.

Croatia was a region of Yugoslavia. It is now a separate state.

Zagreb was the capitol of the Croatian region of Yugoslavia, and now is the capitol of the country of Croatia.


thanks for telling me something i already know.

i mean seriously no one has ever told me that. you're probably the first.

congrats!

[thefranzkafkafront]

Ardent wrote: thefranzkafkafront wrote: Ardent wrote: lilwolf wrote: I would say that gun control by a dictator worked pretty well. Somewhere between 6 and 12 million jews are dead and millions all over europe do to dictators and their gun controls.



The Russians had guns and a standing army, and over
20 million of them died.

Lovely, you see the important thing there is that your average joe russian wasunt allowed guns because he could use them to harm his goverment.

Standing armies taint got nowght to do with it.

The population of Russia was 109 million in 1939, and during
the war every available male was conscripted in to the armed
forces, while women farmed the land and manned industry.

More than a third of the Russian population were in the armed
forces.

The Red Army drafted a staggering 29,574,900 in addition to the 4,826,907 in service at the beginning of the war. Of these it lost 6,329,600 KIA, 555,400 deaths by disease and 4,559,000 MIA (most captured). Of these 11,444,100, however, 939,700 re-joined the ranks in the subsequently-liberated Soviet territory, and a further 1,836,000 returned from German captivity. Thus the grand total of losses amounted to 8,668,400. The majority of the losses comprised ethnic Russians (5,756,000), followed by ethnic Ukrainians (1,377,400).

The German losses on the Eastern Front comprised an estimated 3,604,800 KIA/MIA (most killed) and 3,576,300 captured (total 7,181,100); the losses of the German satellites on the Eastern Front approximated 668,163 KIA/MIA and 799,982 captured (total 1,468,145). Of these 8,649,300, the Soviets released 3,572,600 from captivity after the war, thus the grand total of the Axis losses came to an estimated 5,076,700.

One more time.

Was gun control untilised by totalitarian states as a method of rebellion prevention.

Yes or no.

Trust me I know more about ww2 than you do, so i don't feel like having more red herrings based on it posted in responce.

[thundertaker]

perdidochas wrote: thundertaker wrote: superskippy wrote: More people have died by the gun in Europe by far this century then in America.

I suspect that is an absolute lie and I bet you 50 quid you cannot come up with any reliable statistics proving that as a fact........

OK,

WWI--about 10 million deaths, let's assume half are gun deaths, that's 5 million killed by guns.
WWII--Germany had 5.5 million casualties, the Soviet Union had 10 million casualties (military alone). Again, let's assume half are gun deaths (assuming cannons are guns), we have 7.5 million deaths there.

Just that quick calculation gives us over 10 million deaths in Europe by guns in the last century (using a low calculation)

For quick calculation sake, let's assume that the 100 yrs of the 20th century all had gun deaths of 30,000 a year (that is a little lower than peak in the 1980s, but a high estimate for most of the century, and includes suicides by gun). Thats 3 million (using a high calculation)

Just seat of the pants calculation shows us that Superskippy is pretty much right. Wars kill so many more people than do crime.

First of all, we are no longer in the 20th century, secondly, what the hell does War have to do with anything? Guns in civilian hands had little if any bearing on the fact that Europe suffered two devastating wars in the 20th century. Americans kid themselves if they think it was guns in civilian hands that stopped the horrors of war reaching their shores. It was thousands of miles of ocean that did that......

[private_citizen]

Ardent wrote: mattman42 wrote: Maybe we should first consider the fact that people are being murdered, then secondly think about how. There's too much BS here about how many people are getting killed by guns in the U.S. when there are plenty of other countries where gun homicides are lower, but overall murders are much higher. Murder is murder, whether it's committed with a gun, knife, stick, rock, pencil, whatever.

The US has a far higher murder rate than any EU Country.

Well the murder rate in the inner cities with gang/drug related murders (which account for over 90% of murders nationwide) are committed with ILLEGALLY OBTAINED guns. These are not private citizens who register and adhere to all laws; this is back alley guns sales of guns ILLEGALLY imported. I watched a documentary on MSNBC on crime, and was not shocked to know that of 10 murders that happen in America, nine are drug/alcohol related! The other 1% is divided between domestic crimes of passion, and other circumstances.

If you take the guns from the hands of the private homeowner, you take his life, his liberty, and his pursuit of happiness.
Legal gun owners are not the problem! If you cannot see that, then you are blinder than Hellen Keller on a moonless night!

[Blinky]

The Comrade wrote: perdidochas wrote:

Comrade, you need to study more.

Croatia was a region of Yugoslavia. It is now a separate state.

Zagreb was the capitol of the Croatian region of Yugoslavia, and now is the capitol of the country of Croatia.


thanks for telling me something i already know.

i mean seriously no one has ever told me that. you're probably the first.

congrats!

:rofl:

Comrade, you are a piece of work! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Mikate8]

I keep laughing at France more and more. Unlike England, France has more immigrants flooding in and causing all kinds of problems like those violent riots and attacks on police last year. Well theyre happening again, and they actually have a solution.

See, the problem is, is that these hoodlums in the ghettos causing most of the trouble, buy guns on the BLACK MARKET. Cheap guns that come in from eastern european countries where guns are all over the place because of that cold war. So you have criminals buying guns illegally and the heavy gun legislation has no effect on people who sell guns illegally. This sounds like a very bad problem I know.

So whats France's solution? Criminals getting hold of guns illegally
Solution? They have one. Even more restrictive gun laws that stop regular citizens from owning guns.
Those crazy french people. Those criminals will be taught a lesson when they hear our new legislation ( DER DER DERRRR )

Tons of disgruntled youths Able to buy cheap guns illegally and cheaply
Politicians who "Know whats best" Say "You can't carry a concealed gun, because if you do that you'll be able to defend yourself against criminals who don't obey our silly laws. Do you want that? You actually want to defend yourself from someone who wants to rob and hurt you? Well F*** you because guns are evil and if you're able to defend yourself then i'll be upset."

DID I HEAR THAT RIGHT OR WAS I SOMEHOW HIGH? HIGH ON LIFE IS WHAT IT MUST'VE BEEN BECAUSE I LIVE IN AMERICA.

THATS WHAT I HEAR, CRIMINALS GET GUNS ILLEGALLY? ARE YOU SERIOUS? YEA, YOU KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS, KEEP LAW ABIDING CITIZENS FROM GETTING GUNS, OH WAIT WE ALREADY DO THAT, JUST PUT OUT EVEN MORE LAWS, THAT'LL WORK.

[Lucky Luke]

Mikate8 wrote: I keep laughing at France more and more. Unlike England, France has more immigrants flooding in and causing all kinds of problems like those violent riots and attacks on police last year. Well theyre happening again, and they actually have a solution.

See, the problem is, is that these hoodlums in the ghettos causing most of the trouble, buy guns on the BLACK MARKET. Cheap guns that come in from eastern european countries where guns are all over the place because of that cold war. So you have criminals buying guns illegally and the heavy gun legislation has no effect on people who sell guns illegally. This sounds like a very bad problem I know.

So whats France's solution? Criminals getting hold of guns illegally
Solution? They have one. Even more restrictive gun laws that stop regular citizens from owning guns.
Those crazy french people. Those criminals will be taught a lesson when they hear our new legislation ( DER DER DERRRR )

Tons of disgruntled youths Able to buy cheap guns illegally and cheaply
Politicians who "Know whats best" Say "You can't carry a concealed gun, because if you do that you'll be able to defend yourself against criminals who don't obey our silly laws. Do you want that? You actually want to defend yourself from someone who wants to rob and hurt you? Well F*** you because guns are evil and if you're able to defend yourself then i'll be upset."

DID I HEAR THAT RIGHT OR WAS I SOMEHOW HIGH? HIGH ON LIFE IS WHAT IT MUST'VE BEEN BECAUSE I LIVE IN AMERICA.

THATS WHAT I HEAR, CRIMINALS GET GUNS ILLEGALLY? ARE YOU SERIOUS? YEA, YOU KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS, KEEP LAW ABIDING CITIZENS FROM GETTING GUNS, OH WAIT WE ALREADY DO THAT, JUST PUT OUT EVEN MORE LAWS, THAT'LL WORK.

Really? But it seems to work fine for them:

Quote: Country
Homicides per million population (average per year 2000-2002)

Scotland........................... 22.7

Aberdeen......................... 15.8

England & Wales............... 17.5

London............................ 26.7

France............................. 17.5

Paris............................... 18.1

Croatia............................ 21.3

Canada........................... 17.9

USA................................ 55.4
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2005/12/13133031/30384

:-D
:-D

[wyldejackyl]

Doesn't say if it's homicide by gun, or just homicide. Nor does your data detail where the gun (if used) was obtained. I'll bet THAT data is a hell of a lot more relevant.

Luke, if someone held you up at gunpoint, would you cave to their every desire, or would you fight back? What about if you had a ladyfriend with you and her safety was in jeopardy?

[Lucky Luke]

wyldejackyl wrote: Doesn't say if it's homicide by gun, or just homicide. Nor does your data detail where the gun (if used) was obtained. I'll bet THAT data is a hell of a lot more relevant.

Luke, if someone held you up at gunpoint, would you cave to their every desire, or would you fight back? What about if you had a ladyfriend with you and her safety was in jeopardy?

I have many friends and they are a hell safer in Aberdeen, London or Paris than in America Wyldejackyl.

70% of all murders in America are with firearms, around 10% in Europe, what else could it be Wyldejackyl, are American born murderers?
I refuse to believe that they are.

:-D
:-D

[wyldejackyl]

70% of murders are with firearms. Okay, let's just say I believe everything you're throwing at me. What percentage of those were committed with "illegal" firearms..that is..those that do not follow the area's existing gun laws? Also, what is the breakdown of those illegal weapons between what's illegal "now" and what was deemed illegal with the NFA passed back in the 1930s?
I don't know if such statistics even exist- from an unbiased source.

Also, you say you feel safer in europe than america. Safer from whom? Armed criminals, an oppressive government..? The stats (that I'm sure you have someplace) you are going to show me from europe better detail what crimes were caused with what weapon, where it came from, as well as an estimate on all the crimes not reported (and thus, not prevented by police action, which is all I'm assuming you have to go on over there - 911 dial-a-prayer).

[Mikate8]

Hey somebody, I need some help because statistics seem like a lot of crap to me, especially when theyre confusing. I mean, theyre homicides I know that, but how come theres decimals, a kid getting shot to death only counts as .3 or something? Why not just put total homicides?

Whats more confusing is that the numbers of homicides in certain CITIES are HIGHER than the homicide rate for our WHOLE COUNTRY. That seems as if they used alot of Guess-timation.
[/quote]USA


55.4

New York


80.8

San Francisco


82.6

Washington DC


427.8[/quote]

Even if you go look at the link, we're doing a hell of a lot better than Russian and South Africa. Estonia? What have they got going for them.
Yea I also can't find how they've put all these numbers together.
Hey wait a minute, it doesnt even tell you how the homicides were done. This thing isn't even relevant, the topic is about gun control, not knife control or blunt object control, or strangulation control. Its about crazy people who want to put laws against inanimate objects and not the criminals who use them.

Well then Lucky Luke if you wanna do it that way fine. Look at Washington D.C. They have lots of homicides over there, and the criminals run around killing lots of people, why? Because in Washington DC they have the most strict gun control laws in the country. You can't buy a handgun or own one unless its stuck in a safe and or disassembled. Ok? When someone is confronted by some thugs that want to rob that person, they could either
A) Roll into a ball while getting beaten
B) Roll into a ball, get beat and then killed
Or C) Pull out a gun and shoot the assailants. (That simple)
Oh yea I forgot one other possibility, we'll say its D) Call the police on your cell phone, then get beaten and killed while waiting for help

And heres that statistics link http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2005/12/13133031/30384

[Lucky Luke]

wyldejackyl wrote: 70% of murders are with firearms. Okay, let's just say I believe everything you're throwing at me. What percentage of those were committed with "illegal" firearms..that is..those that do not follow the area's existing gun laws? Also, what is the breakdown of those illegal weapons between what's illegal "now" and what was deemed illegal with the NFA passed back in the 1930s?
I don't know if such statistics even exist- from an unbiased source.

Also, you say you feel safer in europe than america. Safer from whom? Armed criminals, an oppressive government..? The stats (that I'm sure you have someplace) you are going to show me from europe better detail what crimes were caused with what weapon, where it came from, as well as an estimate on all the crimes not reported (and thus, not prevented by police action, which is all I'm assuming you have to go on over there - 911 dial-a-prayer).

70% of murders are with firearms in America and in America only Wyldejackyl, if most of them are illegal weapons or I would suggest legal weapons in criminal hands, American gun control laws need to get a hell tougher laws to keep guns legal or not out of criminals or wannabe criminals hands.

Safer from getting murdered Wyldejackyl, 2 to 4 times safer in Europe than America Wyldejackyl.

BTW I did not say I feel safer, I wrote that I am.

:-D
:-D