Political Crossfire Forums

[thundertaker]

superskippy wrote: More people have died by the gun in Europe by far this century then in America.

I suspect that is an absolute lie and I bet you 50 quid you cannot come up with any reliable statistics proving that as a fact........

[Ardent]

The Comrade wrote: Ardent wrote:

That article you have just posted is from 2000, over six
years ago, the one I posted was from two months ago. :roll:


And you think america's crime rate has shot up that much in six years?

The article suggests violent crime is rising and FBI Figures
back this up. 17,000 murders and 80,000 gun injuries are
not exactly low level.

[Ardent]

lilwolf wrote: Ardent your first link was published in 2002 and your next was 2006 I agree but what you need to see is that not all of the crime in your second link are murder.

However the rates of increase is very small from 2004 to 2005 which went from 5.5 (2004) to 5.6 (2005)

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm




Now 2006 is not complete and it vcannot be used as yet because all of the data is not yet available and is only speculation at best at this point. The year is not yet done.

Even the BJS site has the following data:

For most crimes, aggregated rates for the period 2004-05 were unchanged from the previous two year period 2002-03, while minor declines were seen for some forms of robbery and simple assault without injury.
The rate of firearm violence increased between 2004 and 2005, from 1.4 to 2.0 victimizations per 1,000 individuals age 12 or older.
Males, blacks, and persons age 24 or younger continued to be victimized at higher rates than females, whites, and persons age 25 or older in 2005.


The point is that any use of 2006 rates of crime are non acceptable due to it not being a full year as yet.

The first article from 2002, merely highlights the gun laws,
which are still fairly much the same in 2006.

The second article from USA Today, shows figures from 2006,
but also mentions the fact that according to FBI Figures Violent
Crime and Gun Crime have risen in America throughout 2005
and beyond.

[Ardent]

thundertaker wrote: superskippy wrote: More people have died by the gun in Europe by far this century then in America.

I suspect that is an absolute lie and I bet you 50 quid you cannot come up with any reliable statistics proving that as a fact........

Since the year 2000, more people have died
in Europe as a result of guns than in America.

I don't think so.

Can you provide a link with figures before you
make such wild claims.

[airo]

thundertaker wrote: superskippy wrote: More people have died by the gun in Europe by far this century then in America.

I suspect that is an absolute lie and I bet you 50 quid you cannot come up with any reliable statistics proving that as a fact........

So, wait. Genocide and ethnic cleansing don't count as murder?

[thefranzkafkafront]

airo wrote: Ardent wrote: Germany, France, the UK etc all have very strict gun
controls. You can't own a gun for self defence, you can't
have a gun in your house for self defence purposes.
you can't own automatic weapons and to get a gun you
have to be subject to doctors reports and mental health
checks, as well as having to give a good reason why
you need to own a gun. There is not that much difference
between British Gun Laws and those of our European
Neighbours.

http://www.time.com/time/europe/magazine/2002/0513/guns/laws.html

So how come Germany and continental Europe, have such
low crime rates??????????????

How come Germany and continental Europe have undergone tyrannical, oppressive rule, in many places, multiple times in the past century?

And Bingo was his name oh.

[lilwolf]

thefranzkafkafront wrote: airo wrote: Ardent wrote: Germany, France, the UK etc all have very strict gun
controls. You can't own a gun for self defence, you can't
have a gun in your house for self defence purposes.
you can't own automatic weapons and to get a gun you
have to be subject to doctors reports and mental health
checks, as well as having to give a good reason why
you need to own a gun. There is not that much difference
between British Gun Laws and those of our European
Neighbours.

http://www.time.com/time/europe/magazine/2002/0513/guns/laws.html

So how come Germany and continental Europe, have such
low crime rates??????????????

How come Germany and continental Europe have undergone tyrannical, oppressive rule, in many places, multiple times in the past century?

And Bingo was his name oh.


But we can't say the name because we will get called bad names :roll:


What the Hell, I'll say it ........Hitler :-D

[Mikate8]

thundertaker wrote: superskippy wrote: More people have died by the gun in Europe by far this century then in America.

I suspect that is an absolute lie and I bet you 50 quid you cannot come up with any reliable statistics proving that as a fact........

He probably meant last century, because this is a new one. In the 20th Century not even 6 years ago, more people died by the gun in Europe. Hitler, Hitler anybody? Ohhh, looks like you owe that man some quid

[thefranzkafkafront]

lilwolf wrote: thefranzkafkafront wrote: airo wrote: Ardent wrote: Germany, France, the UK etc all have very strict gun
controls. You can't own a gun for self defence, you can't
have a gun in your house for self defence purposes.
you can't own automatic weapons and to get a gun you
have to be subject to doctors reports and mental health
checks, as well as having to give a good reason why
you need to own a gun. There is not that much difference
between British Gun Laws and those of our European
Neighbours.

http://www.time.com/time/europe/magazine/2002/0513/guns/laws.html

So how come Germany and continental Europe, have such
low crime rates??????????????

How come Germany and continental Europe have undergone tyrannical, oppressive rule, in many places, multiple times in the past century?

And Bingo was his name oh.


But we can't say the name because we will get called bad names :roll:


What the Hell, I'll say it ........Hitler :-D
Franco, Mussolini, Tito, Lenin, Stalin.

Ooh how i can go on, thats barely 10%.

[thefranzkafkafront]

Ardent wrote: thundertaker wrote: superskippy wrote: More people have died by the gun in Europe by far this century then in America.

I suspect that is an absolute lie and I bet you 50 quid you cannot come up with any reliable statistics proving that as a fact........

Since the year 2000, more people have died
in Europe as a result of guns than in America.

I don't think so.

Can you provide a link with figures before you
make such wild claims.

Certainly in the 20th centuary. Thats a no brainer.

Generally speaking goverments have killed more people than any other cause and the 20th centaury was a very busy one for political genocide.

[Ardent]

What happened in Germany was nothing to do with gun control,
it was more to do with economics, the devaluation of the mark
and a people forced in to poverty.

The population by and large supported Hitler and fought for him,
and most of the population were given guns as part of the
German Armed Forces, including children in the Hitler Youth,
there was no shortage of guns.

What was going to happen if they had more guns, were the small
Jewish population going to out fight the massive German population.

Were the German people going to rise against Hitler and the
invasion of Poland by their own army, I hardly think so. Indeed
when the Nazi's took power there were not that many gun restrictions.

As for Americas gun deaths, they are more than the equivalent of
fighting a major war every year and more Americans die at home
due to guns than have died in either in the Iraq or Afghanistan
Campaigns and so called war on terror.

[thefranzkafkafront]

Ardent wrote: What happened in Germany in the 1930's was nothing to
do with gun control.

The population by and large supported Hitler and fought for him,
and most of the population were given guns as part of the
German Armed Forces, including children in the Hitler Youth,
there was no shortage of guns.

What was going to happen if they had more guns, were the small
Jewish population going to out fight the massive German population.

Where the German people going to rise against Hitler and the
invasion of Poland by their own army, I hardly think so.

As for Americas gun deaths, they are more than the equivalent of
fighting a major war every year and more Americans die at home
due to guns than have died in either the Iraq or Afghanistan Campaigns
and so called war on terror.

And how could people effectively fight hitler without guns? There were people, the Socail Democrats, groups of students and of course German Jews.

They had no ability to fight back and so they had to run.


Then theres other countries like Italy, Poland, Hungary, the Balitic states, Russia of course, Vichy France.

Then post war, theres the entire of the warsaw pact.

I can go on if you want me to.

A district patern here is that during the rise of the ogliarchy of these states to power a move allways executed was the removal of arms from the general population and the concentration of them in their own civilian supporters then turned into offical arms of state apparatus.

Im not saying gun control 'brought' any of these people or parties to power, however gun control was a meathod all of these parties insitutied in order to reduce the threat of domestic resistance.

[mattman42]

Maybe we should first consider the fact that people are being murdered, then secondly think about how. There's too much BS here about how many people are getting killed by guns in the U.S. when there are plenty of other countries where gun homicides are lower, but overall murders are much higher. Murder is murder, whether it's committed with a gun, knife, stick, rock, pencil, whatever.

[lilwolf]

thefranzkafkafront wrote: Ardent wrote: What happened in Germany in the 1930's was nothing to
do with gun control.

The population by and large supported Hitler and fought for him,
and most of the population were given guns as part of the
German Armed Forces, including children in the Hitler Youth,
there was no shortage of guns.

What was going to happen if they had more guns, were the small
Jewish population going to out fight the massive German population.

Where the German people going to rise against Hitler and the
invasion of Poland by their own army, I hardly think so.

As for Americas gun deaths, they are more than the equivalent of
fighting a major war every year and more Americans die at home
due to guns than have died in either the Iraq or Afghanistan Campaigns
and so called war on terror.

And how could people effectively fight hitler without guns? There were people, the Socail Democrats, groups of students and of course German Jews.

They had no ability to fight back and so they had to run.


Then theres other countries like Italy, Poland, Hungary, the Balitic states, Russia of course, Vichy France.

Then post war, theres the entire of the warsaw pact.

I can go on if you want me to.

A district patern here is that during the rise of the ogliarchy of these states to power a move allways executed was the removal of arms from the general population and the concentration of them in their own civilian supporters then turned into offical arms of state apparatus.

Im not saying gun control 'brought' any of these people or parties to power, however gun control was a meathod all of these parties insitutied in order to reduce the threat of domestic resistance.



Boy are you going to have fun making or even getting LL to listen to that one...while I agree with you ... I 'll bet you get called bad names like I did for even saying that.... :lol: :lol:

[Ardent]

thefranzkafkafront wrote: Ardent wrote: What happened in Germany in the 1930's was nothing to
do with gun control.

The population by and large supported Hitler and fought for him,
and most of the population were given guns as part of the
German Armed Forces, including children in the Hitler Youth,
there was no shortage of guns.

What was going to happen if they had more guns, were the small
Jewish population going to out fight the massive German population.

Where the German people going to rise against Hitler and the
invasion of Poland by their own army, I hardly think so.

As for Americas gun deaths, they are more than the equivalent of
fighting a major war every year and more Americans die at home
due to guns than have died in either the Iraq or Afghanistan Campaigns
and so called war on terror.

And how could people effectively fight hitler without guns? There were people, the Socail Democrats, groups of students and of course German Jews.

They had no ability to fight back and so they had to run.


Then theres other countries like Italy, Poland, Hungary, the Balitic states, Russia of course, Vichy France.

Then post war, theres the entire of the warsaw pact.

I can go on if you want me to.

A district patern here is that during the rise of the ogliarchy of these states to power a move allways executed was the removal of arms from the general population and the concentration of them in their own civilian supporters then turned into offical arms of state apparatus.

Im not saying gun control 'brought' any of these people or parties to power, however gun control was a meathod all of these parties insitutied in order to reduce the threat of domestic resistance.

The Nazi Party came to power in Germany by democratic means,
and any resistance was not wide scale. Economic Depression and
national decline were the main reason for the population turning
to Hitler.

As for the Jews and others, they only made up a tiny proportion of
the population, who by and large supported Hitler.

Whilst the Old Warsaw Pact and Eastern Europe had gun controls,
do did Western European Democracies and other democratic
countries around the world.

[Ardent]

mattman42 wrote: Maybe we should first consider the fact that people are being murdered, then secondly think about how. There's too much BS here about how many people are getting killed by guns in the U.S. when there are plenty of other countries where gun homicides are lower, but overall murders are much higher. Murder is murder, whether it's committed with a gun, knife, stick, rock, pencil, whatever.

The US has a far higher murder rate than any EU Country.

[thefranzkafkafront]

Ardent wrote: thefranzkafkafront wrote: Ardent wrote: What happened in Germany in the 1930's was nothing to
do with gun control.

The population by and large supported Hitler and fought for him,
and most of the population were given guns as part of the
German Armed Forces, including children in the Hitler Youth,
there was no shortage of guns.

What was going to happen if they had more guns, were the small
Jewish population going to out fight the massive German population.

Where the German people going to rise against Hitler and the
invasion of Poland by their own army, I hardly think so.

As for Americas gun deaths, they are more than the equivalent of
fighting a major war every year and more Americans die at home
due to guns than have died in either the Iraq or Afghanistan Campaigns
and so called war on terror.

And how could people effectively fight hitler without guns? There were people, the Socail Democrats, groups of students and of course German Jews.

They had no ability to fight back and so they had to run.


Then theres other countries like Italy, Poland, Hungary, the Balitic states, Russia of course, Vichy France.

Then post war, theres the entire of the warsaw pact.

I can go on if you want me to.

A district patern here is that during the rise of the ogliarchy of these states to power a move allways executed was the removal of arms from the general population and the concentration of them in their own civilian supporters then turned into offical arms of state apparatus.

Im not saying gun control 'brought' any of these people or parties to power, however gun control was a meathod all of these parties insitutied in order to reduce the threat of domestic resistance.

The Nazi Party came to power in Germany by democratic means,
and any resistance was not wide scale. Economic Depression and
national decline were the main reason for the population turning
to Hitler.

As for the Jews and others, they only made up a tiny proportion of
the population, who by and large supported Hitler.

6 of one and half dozen of the other. In a nutshell, the Nazi's did again a lot of power via the ballot box, but a lot of this was suplimented by the Militant powers of the S.A, they openly crushed oposition from Communists and trade unionists (large groups who did dirclty oppose them) with physical force and arms.

But thats not the point, im not debating gun control put them in power, im saying gun control was a device they used to keep the ability of defence and offence firmly and only within there own party.

There is often so little oposition in totalitarian states becuause without arms they cannot be opposed.

Quote:
Whilst the Old Warsaw Pact and Eastern Europe had gun controls,
do did Western European Democracies and other democratic
countries around the world.
Uhuh, but did you read my point. Gun control is used as a method of control by tyrical regimes. Thats an emperical fact.

[thefranzkafkafront]

Ardent wrote: mattman42 wrote: Maybe we should first consider the fact that people are being murdered, then secondly think about how. There's too much BS here about how many people are getting killed by guns in the U.S. when there are plenty of other countries where gun homicides are lower, but overall murders are much higher. Murder is murder, whether it's committed with a gun, knife, stick, rock, pencil, whatever.

The US has a far higher murder rate than any EU Country.

And there are far more factors in that, than simply Guns or no guns.

Social Strataisation, Alienation ect.

[Ardent]

thefranzkafkafront wrote: Ardent wrote: thefranzkafkafront wrote: Ardent wrote: What happened in Germany in the 1930's was nothing to
do with gun control.

The population by and large supported Hitler and fought for him,
and most of the population were given guns as part of the
German Armed Forces, including children in the Hitler Youth,
there was no shortage of guns.

What was going to happen if they had more guns, were the small
Jewish population going to out fight the massive German population.

Where the German people going to rise against Hitler and the
invasion of Poland by their own army, I hardly think so.

As for Americas gun deaths, they are more than the equivalent of
fighting a major war every year and more Americans die at home
due to guns than have died in either the Iraq or Afghanistan Campaigns
and so called war on terror.

And how could people effectively fight hitler without guns? There were people, the Socail Democrats, groups of students and of course German Jews.

They had no ability to fight back and so they had to run.


Then theres other countries like Italy, Poland, Hungary, the Balitic states, Russia of course, Vichy France.

Then post war, theres the entire of the warsaw pact.

I can go on if you want me to.

A district patern here is that during the rise of the ogliarchy of these states to power a move allways executed was the removal of arms from the general population and the concentration of them in their own civilian supporters then turned into offical arms of state apparatus.

Im not saying gun control 'brought' any of these people or parties to power, however gun control was a meathod all of these parties insitutied in order to reduce the threat of domestic resistance.

The Nazi Party came to power in Germany by democratic means,
and any resistance was not wide scale. Economic Depression and
national decline were the main reason for the population turning
to Hitler.

As for the Jews and others, they only made up a tiny proportion of
the population, who by and large supported Hitler.

6 of one and half dozen of the other. In a nutshell, the Nazi's did again a lot of power via the ballot box, but a lot of this was suplimented by the Militant powers of the S.A, they openly crushed oposition from Communists and trade unionists (large groups who did dirclty oppose them) with physical force and arms.

But thats not the point, im not debating gun control put them in power, im saying gun control was a device they used to keep the ability of defence and offence firmly and only within there own party.

There is often so little oposition in totalitarian states becuause without arms they cannot be opposed.

Quote:
Whilst the Old Warsaw Pact and Eastern Europe had gun controls,
do did Western European Democracies and other democratic
countries around the world.
Uhuh, but did you read my point. Gun control is used as a method of control by tyrical regimes. Thats an emperical fact.

Guns are controlled in democracies, as well as Totalitarian Regimes
and I don't recall seeing massive shoot outs on the streets of Berlin
when the old guard were over thrown and the wall finally came down.

Indeed in many cases it is guns that put totalitarian states in to
power in the first place, remember the Russian Revolution of
1917.

Britain set up a Home Guard during World War 2 and armed the
civilians with military weapons, however the Home Guard was
disbanded and the weapons returned after WW2. It has never
been British policy to keep a large standing army, we instead
kept a large navy, and there are not too many Naval Dictatorships
in the world. :lol:

The British Army swears no allegiance to the Goverment,
it swears allegiance to the monarch (Queen Elizabeth) and
many regiments also have different colonel in chiefs
such as the Duke of Edinburgh, Duke of York, even the
Queen of Denmark (PWRR)

As for many old Communist Countries such as Russia and
inparticuarly Moscow, the populance often look back on the
good old days of communism. When the streets were safe.
Since the end of communism Moscow and other Russian Cities
have seen an explosion of gun deaths.

[lilwolf]

I would say that gun control by a dictator worked pretty well. Somewhere between 6 and 12 million jews are dead and millions all over europe do to dictators and their gun controls.