Political Crossfire Forums

[Wizard From Oz]

Quote: Of course they do -- but do they send videos of their snipers to al jazerra?

So the US does not employ gun camera technology?

I seem to recall during Desert Storm seeing flippant comments being passed about building hits and vehicle hits during press conferences.

Feel free to point out the difference :)

[thundertaker]

Kamel wrote: Why should I respect people who think it's a good idea to blow themselves up in heavily crowded areas? They kill innocent civilians too.

Not that I wish to sound trite, but the coalition is also responsible for civilian deaths. I'm talking about the snipers targeting soldiers anyway.

Quote: Would you like some pictures?

No thanks. I've already seen plenty of snuff pornography posted on this forum already by ideologues on both sides. Not that it has any relevence to the point at hand......

[Snake]

The coalition forces also target enemy soldiers. Nevermind, this is going nowhere. Believe what you want to believe, I don't care.

[The Newb]

ubikk wrote: Spider wrote: Agreed. Though I can't say I appreciate or support people picking off coalition troops, I am more inclined to accept this kind of thing as legitimate warfare. Driving a car full of explosives into a police station or restaurant is cowardly and sickening.

Actually, the videos might be doing more damage than the car bombs at this point.


Quote: These videos are over a year old

Not according to the marines that CNN interviewed about some of the shootings. But even if they are, they're still new to US TV viewers.

ok ill give ya that we had to watch them when i was in iraq to study certain aspects of the enemy :wink:

[The Newb]

thundertaker wrote: Not that I wish to sound trite, but the coalition is also responsible for civilian deaths

it is war accidents happen however it is not common place im sure you are aware of this

so you are stating that our soldiers are targeting civilians?

provide proof that ths happens as the norm ( dont give me the few stories of soldiers that have been prosecuted for murder )

[bigstick61]

There was one sniper who was killed not too long ago in Iraq who was pretty good. He was formerly Republican Guard; his logbook during the Iran-Iraq War had well over 100 confirmed kills. He was also responsible for the killing and wounding of scores of US and other servicemen, and Iraqi police and servicemen in Iraq. He was also effective at countersniping our snipers, and many of his kills were done with a USMC sniper rifle which he captured from a sniper team he killed. He was caught one day when someone saw a weapon in his car, which was one of the tools he used for sniping sometimes, and he was shot when he pulled out a pistol or something. He was killed by the very same unit to which the rifle and the team which possessed it belonged to.

[thundertaker]

The Newb wrote: thundertaker wrote: Not that I wish to sound trite, but the coalition is also responsible for civilian deaths

it is war accidents happen however it is not common place im sure you are aware of this

so you are stating that our soldiers are targeting civilians?

provide proof that ths happens as the norm ( dont give me the few stories of soldiers that have been prosecuted for murder )

I never said it was the norm. (Although there have been times when the top brass has shown indifference to the lives of civilians, usually in the form of airstrikes).
This was about referring to insurgents fighting soldiers as 'cowards' which much as I dislike the cause for which the insurgents are fighting for, is crap.....

[The Newb]

thundertaker wrote: The Newb wrote: thundertaker wrote: Not that I wish to sound trite, but the coalition is also responsible for civilian deaths

it is war accidents happen however it is not common place im sure you are aware of this

so you are stating that our soldiers are targeting civilians?

provide proof that ths happens as the norm ( dont give me the few stories of soldiers that have been prosecuted for murder )

I never said it was the norm. (Although there have been times when the top brass has shown indifference to the lives of civilians, usually in the form of airstrikes).
This was about referring to insurgents fighting soldiers as 'cowards' which much as I dislike the cause for which the insurgents are fighting for, is crap.....

so its ok for the insurgents to target civilians?

what would you say if the coalition started targeting civilians as a norm?

put it into perspective before you judge a statement

[thundertaker]

The Newb wrote:
so its ok for the insurgents to target civilians?

what would you say if the coalition started targeting civilians as a norm?

put it into perspective before you judge a statement

Were did I say it was OK for insurgents to target civilians? Nothing I have ever said should have given any sane, rational person that impression. At least if they had read it properly.
So, do you regard all insurgents in the same contemptable light, do you view those that take shots at some of the the most well-armed, well trained soldiers in the world as cowards?

[The Newb]

thundertaker wrote: Kamel wrote: Why should I respect people who think it's a good idea to blow themselves up in heavily crowded areas? They kill innocent civilians too.

Not that I wish to sound trite, but the coalition is also responsible for civilian deaths. I'm talking about the snipers targeting soldiers anyway.

Quote: Would you like some pictures?

No thanks. I've already seen plenty of snuff pornography posted on this forum already by ideologues on both sides. Not that it has any relevence to the point at hand......

oops it looked like you were defending them with this line:
Not that I wish to sound trite, but the coalition is also responsible for civilian deaths. I'm talking about the snipers targeting soldiers anyway.

but to answer your question yes they are cowards here is why:

they take shots at u.s. forces, however most of the time they are hidden behind civilians, hospitals, mosques, areas that we as a rule do not attack.

i understand they cannot take us in a conventional war, however they could stay away from geneva convetions protected areas

they kill innocent civilians rather than us soldiers

they kidnap civilians who are friendly to u.s. troops handcuff them to their cars with a bomb inside and send them on their way to death

there are many examples

if dieing for allah is so great, why force those who do not wish to die to do it for you? go figure

[Demonic Spoon]

Pfft.

The Iraqis picking off US soldiers are revolting against a US invasion. Fair enough, can't say I blame them considering you all would do the exact same thing if the US was invaded.

They're far more justified than the US troops that blow up civilians. The US troops that don't kill civilians are roughly on equal ground with the insurgents.

[The Newb]

Demonic Spoon wrote: Pfft.

The Iraqis picking off US soldiers are revolting against a US invasion. Fair enough, can't say I blame them considering you all would do the exact same thing if the US was invaded.

They're far more justified than the US troops that blow up civilians. The US troops that don't kill civilians are roughly on equal ground with the insurgents.

no i dont blame them for fighting for what they believe in not at all, i will blame them for "fighting dirty" hmmm..... i pretty much defined it in my prior post if you need more explaination i will be glad to assist you.

they are justified? i hope you mean the snipers and not the insurgents that kill civilians....if you mean the snipers sure they are justified and should fight as they can...however again most of them hide in geneva conventions protected areas

[johnflesh]

thundertaker wrote: johnflesh wrote: Looks like the insurgent/terrorist/civilians/mercenaries are doing the same thing they have been doing since this war began:

Hiding, waiting, cowardly attacking, and filming it for all the world to see.

This is one of many videos about the snipers.

The worst thing to hear in Iraq is one single solitary gun shot, because if you hear that and that alone, a Coalition Soldier has been hit, guaranteed.

You do realise the coalition have their own snipers using pretty much the same tactics don't you?

Insurgents who target soldiers are infinately more respectable than the low-lifes who blow up civilians. They are fighting the way honourable soldiers are supposed to......

Yep, I do realize it. And??

My statement stands.

[thundertaker]

johnflesh wrote: thundertaker wrote: johnflesh wrote: Looks like the insurgent/terrorist/civilians/mercenaries are doing the same thing they have been doing since this war began:

Hiding, waiting, cowardly attacking, and filming it for all the world to see.

This is one of many videos about the snipers.

The worst thing to hear in Iraq is one single solitary gun shot, because if you hear that and that alone, a Coalition Soldier has been hit, guaranteed.

You do realise the coalition have their own snipers using pretty much the same tactics don't you?

Insurgents who target soldiers are infinately more respectable than the low-lifes who blow up civilians. They are fighting the way honourable soldiers are supposed to......

Yep, I do realize it. And??

My statement stands.

Are coalition snipers cowards as well in your eyes then?

[MoscowMatt]

thundertaker wrote: Seriously, you can accuse Iraqi insurgents of being a lot of things (Islamofascists etc). But cowardice isn't one of them. It takes guts to take up arms against the most powerful, well-trained soldiers in the world. They probably know their average life expectency is many, many times less than that of their opponents. Whatever happened to having respect for one's enemies?

Would that be the same kind of guts they have when blowing up their own civilians??

Might also have something to do with the lack of respect your questioning as well!!

[thundertaker]

MoscowMatt wrote: thundertaker wrote: Seriously, you can accuse Iraqi insurgents of being a lot of things (Islamofascists etc). But cowardice isn't one of them. It takes guts to take up arms against the most powerful, well-trained soldiers in the world. They probably know their average life expectency is many, many times less than that of their opponents. Whatever happened to having respect for one's enemies?

Would that be the same kind of guts they have when blowing up their own civilians??

Might also have something to do with the lack of respect your questioning as well!!

Can I make one thing absolutely clear again here?

I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT THE ONES WHO DELIBERATELY MURDER CIVILIANS, I'M TALKING ABOUT THE ONES WHO TARGET THE SOLDIERS.

[Demonic Spoon]

Quote:
no i dont blame them for fighting for what they believe in not at all, i will blame them for "fighting dirty" hmmm..... i pretty much defined it in my prior post if you need more explaination i will be glad to assist you.

they are justified? i hope you mean the snipers and not the insurgents that kill civilians....if you mean the snipers sure they are justified and should fight as they can...however again most of them hide in geneva conventions protected areas


1) Fighting dirty? Define "dirty"? You mean how they snipe, then drive away? You're right, it's not like the Coalition fought dirty :roll: War is not fair. It's not supposed to be. The US has fought this war in very "unfair" ways, so obviously the Iraqis are going to too. And they should.

2) Of course. Killing civilians is never, ever justified, which is part of the reason I detest the US military's methods in Iraq.

3) So? If a country conquered the UK and you were trying to rebel ,would you

a) Walk out in broad daylight and try to beat the invading army with pure firepower?

b) Fight using guerilla warfare?

Hint: Option B is more effective.

[The Newb]

Demonic Spoon wrote: Quote:
no i dont blame them for fighting for what they believe in not at all, i will blame them for "fighting dirty" hmmm..... i pretty much defined it in my prior post if you need more explaination i will be glad to assist you.

they are justified? i hope you mean the snipers and not the insurgents that kill civilians....if you mean the snipers sure they are justified and should fight as they can...however again most of them hide in geneva conventions protected areas


1) Fighting dirty? Define "dirty"? You mean how they snipe, then drive away? You're right, it's not like the Coalition fought dirty :roll: War is not fair. It's not supposed to be. The US has fought this war in very "unfair" ways, so obviously the Iraqis are going to too. And they should.

2) Of course. Killing civilians is never, ever justified, which is part of the reason I detest the US military's methods in Iraq.

3) So? If a country conquered the UK and you were trying to rebel ,would you

a) Walk out in broad daylight and try to beat the invading army with pure firepower?

b) Fight using guerilla warfare?

Hint: Option B is more effective.

i have no problem with snipers never diputed that, hbowever when that sniper is in a hospital, mosque, school house, ect protected by geneva convetions well i do have a prob with that

[Demonic Spoon]

Quote: i have no problem with snipers never diputed that, hbowever when that sniper is in a hospital, mosque, school house, ect protected by geneva convetions well i do have a prob with that

Eh. It's necessary. The whole point is to make them indistinguishable from the normal populace.

[The Newb]

Demonic Spoon wrote: Quote: i have no problem with snipers never diputed that, hbowever when that sniper is in a hospital, mosque, school house, ect protected by geneva convetions well i do have a prob with that

Eh. It's necessary. The whole point is to make them indistinguishable from the normal populace.

again, i could accept maybe hiding in a small populated area, but then if the u.s. kills a civilian trying to catch and / or kill this guy well its not thier fault but hiding in geneva conventions prtected areas is way out of line, and forces the u.s. to fight back in those areas, which leads to us pushing the rules in the geneva convetions, and poeple are screaming we fight unfair we are doing what the enemy is forcing us to do