Political Crossfire Forums

[Fido]

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: or he gave us our own world to be gods in if we could discern a godlike purpose for mankind,

You realize who first made that proposal? :lol:

Let me guess.

[Atlas Bergeron]

Fido wrote: Rozzlapeed wrote: Tangibility has nothing to do with existence. Tangibility only refers to the quality of being able to generate a response in biological sense organs. The fact is, everything that is relevant to this discussion all share one common characteristic: they are all conceptualized by the conscious mind, which is the sole arbiter of what constitutes existence. Reality itself is an illusion. It is nothing more than the sum total of all the observations perceived by a set of conscious entit(ies). Within the human mind, for example, ghosts might share the same existential value as NAMBLA and trees. My dead grandmother might still exist today, had she not done her best last year to convince me otherwise.

P.S. -- I find it ridiculous that the topic creator decided to make this thread, even though he has yet to convince me that I might one day observe his existence in another manner. In fact, my own participation in this thread is laughable, in light of the fact that I may not even own a computer or speak English. It's a good thing that at the end of the day, I'm content to live in irony.

Tangible means touchable. Like objective knowledge from seeing as an object. But what if you are able to develop the sensitivity to feel with your mind. as normal, this is complete bull crap. What do you call seing? If you gained a new sense, it would also be with your mind, just differnt from your other five.

Quote: Instead of using your hands, what if you can know how freedom feels without having it to feel. What if you can think about a house, and know how it will feel when you build it. Imagination uses all the faculties of sense, but it takes a great deal of determination is some cases to give intangibles tangible reality. firstly, you can do that--it is called imagination

Secondly, you cannot "feel freedom" becuase freedom does not exist in a form outside of human concepts. "Freedom" isn't some tangible object floating in midair, it is a tangible idea within your mind

Quote: Then you must ask, as Muslim philosophers asked: Was the Holy Koran always in existence since it was now the eternal word of God?
Our lives are the essential link in any chain of sensation. We have made realities other generations have conceived. We know even today's dreams will be tomorrow's reality. Since life is essential to creation of reality to creation of reality? huh?

Quote: , and essential to the sensation of reality, when was concept not real, and when did it become real, or was the concept never real, and will not ever be real. the concept was never real, it was invented. In the same way as a motor was never real before someone invented it, but is when someone does.

Quote: As long as people live, their concepts will be real because they are part of us, part of our chemistry, and a part of how we perceive the future, which I take as the only real time. That they have a certain convenient immateriality is in itself immaterial. If we dream it we can make it, since even our dreams are made of spare bits reality. no, our thoughts can contradict reality and quite frequently do. If I dream that I can make energy (actually, literally make it--disobeying the law of conservation), I will never be able to. You cannot disobey the laws of reality.

[Fido]

Atlas Bergeron wrote: Fido wrote: Rozzlapeed wrote: Tangibility has nothing to do with existence. Tangibility only refers to the quality of being able to generate a response in biological sense organs. The fact is, everything that is relevant to this discussion all share one common characteristic: they are all conceptualized by the conscious mind, which is the sole arbiter of what constitutes existence. Reality itself is an illusion. It is nothing more than the sum total of all the observations perceived by a set of conscious entit(ies). Within the human mind, for example, ghosts might share the same existential value as NAMBLA and trees. My dead grandmother might still exist today, had she not done her best last year to convince me otherwise.

P.S. -- I find it ridiculous that the topic creator decided to make this thread, even though he has yet to convince me that I might one day observe his existence in another manner. In fact, my own participation in this thread is laughable, in light of the fact that I may not even own a computer or speak English. It's a good thing that at the end of the day, I'm content to live in irony.

Quote: Tangible means touchable. Like objective knowledge from seeing as an object. But what if you are able to develop the sensitivity to feel with your mind. as normal, this is complete bull crap. What do you call seing? If you gained a new sense, it would also be with your mind, just differnt from your other five.

-----If you can see it, you can touch it. Even photons are matter, and in a sense light can become all matter, or in another sense it the equivalent of matter....Fido

Quote: Instead of using your hands, what if you can know how freedom feels without having it to feel. What if you can think about a house, and know how it will feel when you build it. Imagination uses all the faculties of sense, but it takes a great deal of determination is some cases to give intangibles tangible reality. firstly, you can do that--it is called imagination

Imagination is not tangible. But, since we cannot imagine anything without some reference to reality, imagination, or the intangible is midway between one reality and another. We imagine with what we know, and with that image we build a new reality to know.

Quote: Secondly, you cannot "feel freedom" becuase freedom does not exist in a form outside of human concepts. "Freedom" isn't some tangible object floating in midair, it is a tangible idea within your mind

Non sense old atlas. We only know it outside of concept, and in concept see it alone. Concepts and ideas are one thing, only. Life is all qualities mixed in every imaginable quantities,

Quote: Then you must ask, as Muslim philosophers asked: Was the Holy Koran always in existence since it was now the eternal word of God?
Our lives are the essential link in any chain of sensation. We have made realities other generations have conceived. We know even today's dreams will be tomorrow's reality. Since life is essential to creation of reality to creation of reality? huh?[/quote]

If we were not here to experience reality it would be immaterial whether it existed or not. Our lives are the essential quality of all reality. Life make reality real. Life makes new realities real.

Quote: , and essential to the sensation of reality, when was concept not real, and when did it become real, or was the concept never real, and will not ever be real. the concept was never real, it was invented. In the same way as a motor was never real before someone invented it, but is when someone does.[/quote]

You have contradicted yourself here from your statement on freedom. I say we can only imagine what we have reason to know in some form. We do not imagine out of nothing, but imagine out of something another something. Motors were never invented by some one, but where the work of many some ones, over many centuries. No one does it alone.

Quote: Quote: As long as people live, their concepts will be real because they are part of us, part of our chemistry, and a part of how we perceive the future, which I take as the only real time. That they have a certain convenient immateriality is in itself immaterial. If we dream it we can make it, since even our dreams are made of spare bits reality. no, our thoughts can contradict reality and quite frequently do. If I dream that I can make energy (actually, literally make it--disobeying the law of conservation), I will never be able to. You cannot disobey the laws of reality. [/quote]

A lot of stuff happens in my dreams without account. It is never without a sense of logic. Were I to dream of creating energy the first thing my dream self would tell my conscious self is this does not fit with the principal of conservation, therefor, it has some underlying meaning which I will have to ponder upon awaking. As you can tell, and I hope I am not revealing too much, I have dialog and narration in my dreams. It is not just pictures. In a sense, I cannot even dream against reality; even when I dream of the dead it is not without the sense of unreality. Yet, it is not because the dead were never real.

[Atlas Bergeron]

Fido wrote: Atlas Bergeron wrote: Fido wrote: Rozzlapeed wrote: Tangibility has nothing to do with existence. Tangibility only refers to the quality of being able to generate a response in biological sense organs. The fact is, everything that is relevant to this discussion all share one common characteristic: they are all conceptualized by the conscious mind, which is the sole arbiter of what constitutes existence. Reality itself is an illusion. It is nothing more than the sum total of all the observations perceived by a set of conscious entit(ies). Within the human mind, for example, ghosts might share the same existential value as NAMBLA and trees. My dead grandmother might still exist today, had she not done her best last year to convince me otherwise.

P.S. -- I find it ridiculous that the topic creator decided to make this thread, even though he has yet to convince me that I might one day observe his existence in another manner. In fact, my own participation in this thread is laughable, in light of the fact that I may not even own a computer or speak English. It's a good thing that at the end of the day, I'm content to live in irony.

Quote: Tangible means touchable. Like objective knowledge from seeing as an object. But what if you are able to develop the sensitivity to feel with your mind. as normal, this is complete bull crap. What do you call seing? If you gained a new sense, it would also be with your mind, just differnt from your other five.

-----If you can see it, you can touch it. Even photons are matter, and in a sense light can become all matter, or in another sense it the equivalent of matter....Fido

Quote: Instead of using your hands, what if you can know how freedom feels without having it to feel. What if you can think about a house, and know how it will feel when you build it. Imagination uses all the faculties of sense, but it takes a great deal of determination is some cases to give intangibles tangible reality. firstly, you can do that--it is called imagination

Imagination is not tangible. But, since we cannot imagine anything without some reference to reality, imagination, or the intangible is midway between one reality and another. We imagine with what we know, and with that image we build a new reality to know. what does this even mean? It is either in reality or it isn't. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Quote: Quote: Secondly, you cannot "feel freedom" becuase freedom does not exist in a form outside of human concepts. "Freedom" isn't some tangible object floating in midair, it is a tangible idea within your mind

Non sense old atlas. We only know it outside of concept, and in concept see it alone. Concepts and ideas are one thing, only. Life is all qualities mixed in every imaginable quantities, this is so confusing to be almost meaningless. Yes, entities that exist in our mind are differnt from entities which don't. But they both exist, and if we know they exist, then they must be tangible.

If they wern't tangible, we wouldn't know they existed.

Quote: Quote: Then you must ask, as Muslim philosophers asked: Was the Holy Koran always in existence since it was now the eternal word of God?
Our lives are the essential link in any chain of sensation. We have made realities other generations have conceived. We know even today's dreams will be tomorrow's reality. Since life is essential to creation of reality to creation of reality? huh?

If we were not here to experience reality it would be immaterial whether it existed or not. Our lives are the essential quality of all reality. Life make reality real. Life makes new realities real.[/quote]im sorry but your talking nonsense. Reality is real independent of life. If no humans existed, there would still be matter.

Quote: Quote: , and essential to the sensation of reality, when was concept not real, and when did it become real, or was the concept never real, and will not ever be real. the concept was never real, it was invented. In the same way as a motor was never real before someone invented it, but is when someone does.

You have contradicted yourself here from your statement on freedom.[/quote] hardly, since freedom and a motor are two completely separate concepts. One is an invention, the other is an observed relation.

Quote: I say we can only imagine what we have reason to know in some form. We do not imagine out of nothing, but imagine out of something another something. if you mean that we have to be able to observe reality in order to gain knowledge and thus use reality for our uses, then you are right. We must observe reality in order to be able to understand ourselves.

Quote: Motors were never invented by some one, but where the work of many some ones, over many centuries. No one does it alone. but it was only one mind which made the aditional break through. Although he relied on past knowledge, the new invention was his and not those before him. If he could only get it from those before him, then it would be impossible for technology to exist in the first place.

Quote: Quote: Quote: As long as people live, their concepts will be real because they are part of us, part of our chemistry, and a part of how we perceive the future, which I take as the only real time. That they have a certain convenient immateriality is in itself immaterial. If we dream it we can make it, since even our dreams are made of spare bits reality. no, our thoughts can contradict reality and quite frequently do. If I dream that I can make energy (actually, literally make it--disobeying the law of conservation), I will never be able to. You cannot disobey the laws of reality.

A lot of stuff happens in my dreams without account. It is never without a sense of logic. Were I to dream of creating energy the first thing my dream self would tell my conscious self is this does not fit with the principal of conservation,[/quote]it might do that to you, that does not mean it does it to everyone. You are trying to justify all dreams as if they are always rational. This is hardly true.

Quote: therefor, it has some underlying meaning which I will have to ponder upon awaking. As you can tell, and I hope I am not revealing too much, I have dialog and narration in my dreams. It is not just pictures. In a sense, I cannot even dream against reality; even when I dream of the dead it is not without the sense of unreality. Yet, it is not because the dead were never real. if you mean that your dreams are based in part off of experience then you are right. This hardly means they directly conform with reality as it is, it simply means that they have the ability to take parts of reality and rearange them into something which is not in reality. just becuase I dream about horses with horns does not make unicorns real.

[Fido]

Since this box is getting crowded without getting clearer, let me try to recap what I am trying to say, and will try to answer the Atlas.

Intangibles are like the word tangent in geometry meaning a line touching. But on the question of whether intangibles are real, it falls back on to a question of Ideal reality. If I understand Kant, he was suggesting we never understand anything until we form a mental conception of it out of sense experience, because this mental conception is a form of classification, and until we know what it is we cannot classify it as this or that, or what it is not.

What then is a concept? It is, as is implied by the previous on Kant, a classification. Just as idea invokes the visual quality of the mental, concept invokes the intellectual quality of the mind in the ability to sort forms by their common characteristic. In any event, when talking of a form, or an idea, or a concept -one is talking about a single thing, one at a time, singular.

Are concepts real? I say they are because they do not happen in dead space, but in living minds that are also by common definition, real. For example, it is often heard that this one or those people are acting unnaturally. How is this possible to say without the contexts of the use of natural being clearly defined since we are part of nature, and so all we do tends to define what is natural? Intangibles are not real real, as is meant by material. But time is a reality without being material. Life in fact is real without being specifically material either. Since life as we know it, our own lives, are dependent upon material conditions we could try to define intangibles in this fashion. You would not make much headway against some one who believes life has a spiritual nature. None the less, I accept I am alive, and my life is material reality as much as a spiritual reality, and so all products of my life and mind are alike real.

So what about my bright ideas. Are they like children, conceived and given birth to? Am I more real for having real ideas, or more spiritual for having unreal ideas? Are my ideas real?. I accept they are as real as myself, and dependent upon matter for life. I can make them more real in some instances than they are in my mind, but how real are they there? I cannot even imagine anything new. I can make Griffins in my mind with bits and pieces of real beings, but I cannot create in my mind, or outside of my mind out of nothing. So, I think intangibles are doubly real in existing in my reality, and being made from existing material reality.

Now, let me point out here that I am growing old, and I suffer from a terminal illness called nostalgia. I cannot drive down a country road without a sense, and a sense only that my past lies just beyond my grasp. I am haunted by this feeling, but I cannot give form to this feeling beyond the word, the melancholy, the loneliness, and the sickness that defies good definition. Were I able to classify this feeling specifically rather than generally I could treat it and cure it, because knowledge does give some measure of power. To know it, it must be real, and to classify it, it must be real. So, is the reality of any quality the result of its general acceptance, or is that reality dependent upon my life and my ability to see and accept it.

To me that choice is one between the political and the personal. Justice is not real because it is conceived, but can be conceived because it is real. Motors are not real because they are conceived, but can be conceived because they are real. At no point were the forces and arrangements of functions in a motor unnatural. They may not have been recognized because we can only see what we know, but every part of a motor has its counterpart in nature, and many are in our own bodies. But the process of seeing and knowing is dynamic. We know as we see, and see as we know, and as we learn we see and know more. Just as living is a process, knowing is a process where the external reality is represented by an internal reality of conception, form and idea. The more exacting our conceptions, forms, and ideas are the greater use our knowledge will have. The matter of knowledge is everywhere. The meaning in matter is what we must discover in it. It is meaning, and not substance that is found in intangibles

Let me see if I can recap:

We know as we can conceive, because conception means classification that is impossible without certain knowledge of what a thing is or is not.

Intangibles are as real as the people knowing them, and not more real nor less real. Life is the reality that make all reality real, and life is the nature that makes every nature natural.

We can only know what is real even while much that is real escapes our notice because we have no conception of what we are seeing. All our intangibles are built from parts and pieces of the tangible world. If we create from intangibles it is part of a process where the real is conceived and classified, and this reality is in turn used to remake reality. The mind of human beings is the universal fulcrum. The mind is like an anvil where reality is tried without success, bent, or broken.

We can only imagine from the real. Nothing is new. The old is only seen in new ways through different lenses.

So, if you have waded through all this, atta boy, Atlas. I can clarify, but I doubt I have much insight to add.