Political Crossfire Forums

[jarf_UK]

slitedeviance wrote: I have heard of this problem and have talked of it before. Aparently it is an occerrence not only in europe but also in australia. Conserv\Traditionalist wrote: Almost like.... crime in general?

If gang rape has nothing to do with Islam, then why does a Muslim leader blame women for rape?

Perhaps many will try and say this was just one radical Muslim? Then why does everyone else support him by not taking action?

What to we call it everyone? Islamorape?

I'm sorry, but these values are simply and utterly incompatible with our own civilized way of life.

[jarf_UK]

Conserv\Traditionalist wrote: I have heard of this problem and have talked of it before. Aparently it is an occerrence not only in europe but also in australia. slitedeviance wrote: Almost like.... crime in general?

If rape has nothing to do with Islam, then why does a Muslim leader blame the women for rape?

Perhaps many will try and say this was "just one radical cleric"? Then why does everyone around him support by not taking action?

What to we call it everyone? :-D Islamorape?

I'm sorry, but there is no place for these views in Australian, British, nor any other civilized nation or society. It has just re-enfoced that idea.

[starwest]

Well, it is scripturally approved by the Quran...

Quote: Qur’an 33:51“You may have whomever you desire; there is no blame.”

Bukhari:V5B59N524 “The Muslims said among themselves, ‘Will Safiyah be one of the Prophet’s wives or just a lady captive and one of his possessions?’”

Bukhari:V4B52N143
V5B59N523 “When we reached Khaybar, Muhammad said that Allah had enabled him to conquer them. It was then that the beauty of Safiyah was described to him. Her husband had been killed [by Muhammad], so Allah’s Apostle selected her for himself. He took her along with him till we reached a place where her menses were over and he took her for his wife, consummating his marriage to her, and forcing her to wear the veil.’”

Ishaq:517 “When the Apostle took Safiyah on his way out of town, she was beautified and combed, putting her in a fitting state for the Messenger. The Apostle passed the night with her in his tent. Abu Ayyub, girt with his sword, guarded the Apostle, going round the tent until he saw him emerge in the morning. Abu said, ‘I was afraid for you with this woman for you have killed her father, her husband, and her people.”

Tabari IX:137 “Allah granted Rayhanah of the [Jewish] Qurayza to His Messenger as booty [but only after she had been forced to watch him decapitate her father and brother, seen her mother hauled off to be raped, and her sisters sold into slavery].”

Tabari IX:137 “Mariyah, a Copt slave, was presented to the Prophet. She was given to him by Muqawqis, the ruler of Alexandria.”

Ishaq:327 “Allah made booty lawful and good. He used it to incite the Muslims to unity of purpose. So enjoy what you have captured.”

Tabari VIII:38 “The Prophet selected for himself from among the Jewish women of the Qurayza, Rayhanah. She became his concubine.

Tabari VIII:97 “When I returned to Medina, the Prophet met me in the market and said, ‘Give me the woman.’ I said, ‘Holy Prophet of Allah, I like her, and I have not uncovered her garment.’ Muhammad said nothing to me until the next day. He again met me in the market and said, ‘Salamah, give me the woman.’ I said, ‘Prophet, I have not uncovered her garment but she is yours.’”

So, the root of the problem is in the teachings of the Quran...unless l have one of the five Quranic translations wrong...[/quote]

[Saracen]

I'm pretty sure you have them all wrong because rape is forbidden, even in spoils of war. Also, Koran 33:51 states that:

God wrote: [33:51] Thou mayest defer (the turn of) any of them that thou pleasest, and thou mayest receive any thou pleasest: and there is no blame on thee if thou invite one whose (turn) thou hadst set aside. This were nigher to the cooling of their eyes, the prevention of their grief, and their satisfaction - that of all of them - with that which thou hast to give them: and Allah knows (all) that is in your hearts: and Allah is All-Knowing, Most Forbearing.

This means that the Prophet (pbuh) can marry whomever he pleases and divorce whomever he pleases.

[cap'n queasy]

Gang rape is used as a punishment for women who break Sharia law in many parts of the Middle East.

For offenses such as attending school, etc.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20436609-2703,00.html

[cap'n queasy]

Here's another pretty sickening example of this practice, and the story a woman who overcame it.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/5323858.stm

[Saracen]

cap'n queasy wrote: Gang rape is used as a punishment for women who break Sharia law in many parts of the Middle East.

For offenses such as attending school, etc.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20436609-2703,00.html

Gang rape is a crime, not a punishment. Just because it happened that these "Muslims", who were indeed backward individuals in this case, abused these women because they were subjugated under these villagers.

Quote: Here's another pretty sickening example of this practice, and the story a woman who overcame it.

My sympathies to all raped women, and may God deliver swift justice against those who raped these women. Amen.

Gang rape or simple rape, it's still rape, and it's haram. There is nothing in Sharia that states that rape is a punishment. NOTHING.

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: Just because it happened that these "Muslims", who were indeed backward individuals in this case, abused these women because they were subjugated under these villagers.


From the story.
Quote: The News International said a mother and daughter in a rural area had been abducted and gang-raped for 12 days because the daughter continued her schooling in defiance of villagers in her home near Multan.

The newspaper said the daughter had recently attained a masters degree in education at the Bahauddin Zahariya University. Precise details of what happened are sketchy, but it appears that the girl's father was also attacked by the assailants and that police took 12 days to act and save the women.

Reports of the rape claimed involvement by "a minister of state" but did not name him.


It's not just a few backward villagers. It is the State under Sharia law.

[Saracen]

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: Just because it happened that these "Muslims", who were indeed backward individuals in this case, abused these women because they were subjugated under these villagers.


From the story.
Quote: The News International said a mother and daughter in a rural area had been abducted and gang-raped for 12 days because the daughter continued her schooling in defiance of villagers in her home near Multan.

The newspaper said the daughter had recently attained a masters degree in education at the Bahauddin Zahariya University. Precise details of what happened are sketchy, but it appears that the girl's father was also attacked by the assailants and that police took 12 days to act and save the women.

Reports of the rape claimed involvement by "a minister of state" but did not name him.


It's not just a few backward villagers. It is the State under Sharia law.

The problem is that Pakistan is under a secular dictatorship. Point lost.

[cap'n queasy]

Saracen wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: Just because it happened that these "Muslims", who were indeed backward individuals in this case, abused these women because they were subjugated under these villagers.


From the story.
Quote: The News International said a mother and daughter in a rural area had been abducted and gang-raped for 12 days because the daughter continued her schooling in defiance of villagers in her home near Multan.

The newspaper said the daughter had recently attained a masters degree in education at the Bahauddin Zahariya University. Precise details of what happened are sketchy, but it appears that the girl's father was also attacked by the assailants and that police took 12 days to act and save the women.

Reports of the rape claimed involvement by "a minister of state" but did not name him.


It's not just a few backward villagers. It is the State under Sharia law.

The problem is that Pakistan is under a secular dictatorship. Point lost.

It does not seem all that secular to me.

[Saracen]

cap'n queasy wrote: Saracen wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: Just because it happened that these "Muslims", who were indeed backward individuals in this case, abused these women because they were subjugated under these villagers.


From the story.
Quote: The News International said a mother and daughter in a rural area had been abducted and gang-raped for 12 days because the daughter continued her schooling in defiance of villagers in her home near Multan.

The newspaper said the daughter had recently attained a masters degree in education at the Bahauddin Zahariya University. Precise details of what happened are sketchy, but it appears that the girl's father was also attacked by the assailants and that police took 12 days to act and save the women.

Reports of the rape claimed involvement by "a minister of state" but did not name him.


It's not just a few backward villagers. It is the State under Sharia law.

The problem is that Pakistan is under a secular dictatorship. Point lost.

It does not seem all that secular to me.

Just because the country has a Muslim majority? The country is secular. It's obvious, cap'n, that you're trying to demonize Islam at every other opportunity. Face it: Islam is as good a religion as Christianity, Judaism and other world religions. No better. No worse. If you can't comprehend that, then you obviously have no tolerance for it.

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: Just because the country has a Muslim majority?

No, because a government minister was involved in this henious crime posing as justice.

[Saracen]

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: Just because the country has a Muslim majority?

No, because a government minister was involved in this henious crime posing as justice.

Doesn't make the entire government based on Sharia. Either way, Sharia condemns rape, and condemns the "two wrongs=right" fallacy.

[starwest]

Quote: There is nothing in Sharia that states that rape is a punishment. NOTHING. --saracen

It depends on how you define rape, to Mohammad's Army, rape was a reward for the hard work of murder and destruction in the name of ALLAH.

For example-

Quote: Bukhari:V4B52N143 /V5B59N523 "When we reached Khaybar, Muhammad said that Allah had enabled him to conquer them. It was then that the beauty of Safiyah was described to him. Her husband had been killed [actually brutalized], so Allah's Apostle selected her for himself. He took her along with him till we reached a place called Sad where her menses were over and he took her for his wife, consummating his marriage to her, and forcing her to wear the veil.'"

So Mohammad has been murdered and now he forced her into marriage and raped her. This is punishment for the woman.

Quote: Bukhari:V5B59N524 "The Muslims said among themselves, ‘Will Safiyah be one of the Prophet's wives or just a lady captive and one of his possessions?'"

This is acknowledging that women are possessions for sexual use.

Quote: Prophet Muhammad promises women to his warriors
"You see, God will soon make you inherit their land, their treasures and make you sleep with their women" (Lit: make their women's beds for you).
These disgusting words are recorded by Ibn Hisham on page 182 Vol. II, of his famous book, "Al Rod Al Anf", which all the researchers regard as a reliable reference

Quote: Tabari VIII:62/Ishaq:496 "Ali [Muhammad's adopted son, son-in-law, and future Caliph] said, ‘Prophet, women are plentiful. You can get a replacement, easily changing one for another.'"

An example of the attitude towards women, and why they are just expendable to Muslims.

Quote: Ishaq:496 "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, ‘Tell the Apostle the truth.'" And women are still beaten throughout the Islamic world.

Quote: Ishaq:512 "The Apostle prohibited four things the morning of the Khaybar raid: carnal intercourse with pregnant women who were captured, mingling his seed with another man's

This teaching is to ensure that the Muslim Men are not tainted when raping a women 'mingling his seed with another man'. So that the non-pregnant women get raped first, the others later.

Quote: nor it is lawful for him to take [rape] her until she is in a state of cleanness [not menstruating]; nor can a Muslim eat the flesh of donkeys; nor eat any carnivorous animal; nor sell any booty before it has been duly allotted."

And this is the instruction to ensure that the Prophet get's the first portion of bounty.

[Saracen]

starwest wrote: It depends on how you define rape, to Mohammad's Army, rape was a reward for the hard work of murder and destruction in the name of ALLAH.

Where are your sources? Give me the link of the website you're using. Rape is not a reward. It is a crime. The Prophe (pbuh) asked his women if they would consent in marriage. Many of them did. However, the Hadith and sources you provide are mistranslated.

Quote: So Mohammad has been murdered and now he forced her into marriage and raped her. This is punishment for the woman.

Muhammad (pbuh) wasn't murdered. And he didn't rape her. He consummated the marriage at her consent. It's not rape. He also told his wife to wear a veil.

Quote: This is acknowledging that women are possessions for sexual use.

No. The Koran clearly states that women are equals of man and God created women and men so they may live together and share their love.

Quote: An example of the attitude towards women, and why they are just expendable to Muslims.

You do realize that women were actually given a better place in society? Here's how women are viewed in Islam. The literature you cite is interpreted wrongly. There is no mention of rape in the Arabic script of the text, nor is there mention of abuse of women outright. Also, the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) forbade sex slaves and booty of war:

Submission wrote: The so called sex slaves, or captives of wars are not permitted in Islam, nor the rape of women captured during war. No slaves are allowed any more in Islam. All the stories circulating around and found on some sites on the Internet or missionaries' books are derived from the corruption deliberately spread in the books called Hadith and Sunna which were written about 200 years after the death of the prophet Muhammad. These books do not represent Islam nor the Islamic law, but rather represent man made laws written against the commands of the prophet Muhammed and the commands of God in the Quran. None of these Hadith stories and its corruption represent Islam, and should never be used to represent Submission(Islam). Submission is represented by God's law (Quran alone) and it is very clear in the Quran. A book, that God called complete, perfect and fully detailed. Islam holds the highest moral values when it comes to the prisoners of wars and their rights. Women captured during war time are not possession of the victorious army as some claim, but they are to be treated like all prisoners of wars with respect and dignity. Islam does not give any permission to abuse these women, use them as sex slaves, rape them or force them to marry anyone. If any Muslim army broke these laws at any time during the old days or recent days, they were only representing their own failure and they never represented Islam (Submission). Their action cannot be considered representing Islam as much the action of Adolf Hitler cannot be considered as representing the peaceful loving side of Christianity.

We have an obligation to educate the public and increase their awareness of this crime and how it is handled in a just manner in Submission (Islam). We should make every effort to try to move the people back to the beautiful moral values called for by God in the scripture. Only then we will see this crime diminishing and the safety of our loved ones increased by the protection of God.

In other words, you have your sources mixed up.

Quote: This teaching is to ensure that the Muslim Men are not tainted when raping a women 'mingling his seed with another man'. So that the non-pregnant women get raped first, the others later.

What are the other 2 things? I bet rape is prime amongst them, because rape is forbidden.

Quote: And this is the instruction to ensure that the Prophet get's the first portion of bounty.

No. It forbids any Muslim, even the Prophet (pbuh) himself, to rape the bounty of war. Also, "take" in this sense means marriage, not rape. There's a difference. It's obvious that these pieces of text were translated with an extremely inherent bias.

[starwest]

again, l can go into the Australian Leader who is being paid $40.000.00 aust. money to teach Muslims the law of Peace, and has justified the horrific gang rape as being the woman's fault...but that is already being addressed elsewhere, so l'll just add this-

Quote: Rape of women prisoners
In December 626 CE at the well of Muraysi the muslims surprised the army of the Banu l-Mustaliq. The muslims lost one man dead and the unbelievers ten. The booty was excellent: two thousand camels, five thousand sheep and goats and two hundred women. A very beautiful captive was Juwayriyya, daughter of the chieftain. Muhammad saw her and she became wife number six.

The victors wanted to have sex with their captives but the women were to be ransomed and not kept as slaves. Muhammad agreed that his men could use azl, that is to go into the women but withdraw before ejaculation. When a jew called coitus interruptus ~the lesser child-murder" the Prophet said: "The Jews lie."25

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:
We got female captives in the war booty and we used to do coitus interruptus with them. So we asked Allah's Apostle about it and he said, "Do you really do that?" repeating the question thrice, "There is no soul that is destined to exist but will come into existence Sahih Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 137:

Abu Sa'id al-Khudri said:
The Apostle of Allah sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives. Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, send down the Qur'anic verse: "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hand possess."[Surah 4:24] ...Sunan Abu Dawud, Book V, Chapter 711, Number 2150


Are sex-slaves consenting partners?

(We agree that all this happened in the Seventh Century, but unfortunately the Qur'an and Sunnah, sayings and actions of the Prophet, are still the basis for islamic law today.)
The women, children and property (of the Banu Qurayzah) were divided amongst those who had taken part in the siege. The Bani Nadir ransomed many of their kin but Muhammad kept for himself, as concubine, a beautiful jewess named Rayhanah.

The Prophet agreed to kill none of the jews provided that they vacated Khaybar leaving all possessions behind. For concealing treasure two jews, Kinana and his cousin were executed. Kinana's beautiful seventeen year old widow, Saffiyah was attractive to Muhammad and he married her. "He was as thirty men." (Hadith Bukhari Book 1, Vol 5, Number 268)

The ruler of Egypt replied to the Prophet's letter. As far as converting to islam was concerned, he was non-committal but he did send some fine presents including two Christian slave girls. One of these, Mariyah, the Prophet kept as a concubine and he visited her several times a day. His wives became so jealous that he was forced to swear that he would not see her again.
A Revelation now known as "The Forbidding" rebuked the Prophet for submitting to the pressure of his wives. It was quite lawful for him to take a concubine and "perhaps if he divorces you, God will give him in exchange better wives than you... penitent, obedient... both known of men and virgins. O believers, save yourselves... from the Fire whose fuel is men and stones" (66:5-6)

Hadith Abu Dawud, Book 11, number 2153
The Apostle of Allah said: “it is not lawful for a man who believes in Allah and the Last Day to have intercourse with a captive woman till she is free from a menstrual course.”

Hadith Malik 496:1540 A man went on a journey with the slave-girl of his wife and went into her. The envious wife reported it to Umar who said the husband would be stoned unless the slave girl was owned by him. The wife spoke out to save him: "I had given her as a gift."
The Holy Prophet Mohammad condoned slavery ( even practised it as he owned concubines). Mohammad had two concubines Mariyah the Coptic, and Raihanah bint Zaid An-Nadriyah or Quraziyah.

Treatment of Female Slaves, Concubines and victims of rape :
"Slave-women of many ethnic origins were recruited in enormous numbers to staff the harems of the islamic world -- as concubines or as menials, the two functions not being clearly differentiated.

“A slave is the property of his/her master. He/She is subject to the master's power, insomuch that if a master should kill his slave he is not liable to retaliation. With female slaves a master has the mulk-i-moot at, or right of enjoyment, and his children by them, when acknowledged, have the same rights and privileges as his children by his wives. A slave is incompetent to anything that implies the exercise of authority over others. Hence a slave cannot be a witness, a judge, or an executor or guardian to any but his master and his children. A slave cannot inherit from anyone, and a bequest to him is a bequest to his master.” p. 367_Digest of Islamic Law_ N. Bailli e, Premier Book House (Pakistan).

food for thought...a Holy Scripture that promotes rape, slavery...

[Saracen]

starwest wrote: food for thought...a Holy Scripture that promotes rape, slavery...

Two things: many of the Hadiths in Abu Dawwud and Malik are actually quite weak. That's one. The second thing is that you still fail to cite your sources, which are obviously not "Holy Scripture". The sources that I provided do include Koranic condemnations for rape. Yours provides very sketchy information. Also, I need the link to your sources, because the translations can be very wrong.

I did a search for "Jewess" in Sahih Bukhari and have found nothing that relates to your accusations.

None of your verses justify rape. They simply talk about how you deal with slaves. The Koran is very clear on that issue, and the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) himself freed slaves. So, please, don't pretend that you don't know more about my religion than I do.