Political Crossfire Forums

[Patriot911]

Mighty Oak wrote: Do you work for Centcom?Cause you sure do want me to believe YOUR interpretation.Where does it say it's for Middle East conspiracies?The definition of population could very well mean the conspiracy crowd,right?You accuse me of misrepresenting this when in fact it is you who is misrepresenting this and putting more into it then it actually says.

I have interpreted what was on the web site in the spirit it was intended. Which terrorists do you think they are talking about? The Albanian ones? The Peruvians? The Oompa Loompans?

How many conspiracy theorists go on to be recruited by terrorists? Anybody from Alex Jones' staff suddenly turned up in Iraq fighting for the insurgents or on Al Qaeda videos? Where are these terrorists being recruited from. Does Al Qaeda have a booth at the conferences Alex Jones puts on?

If you are going to stand there and blatantly lie your a$$ off by stating any place other than the Middle East is where the terrorists do the vast majority of their recruiting from, then you're pretty much washed up as a debator because I've just proven you will continue to ineffectively try and prove you are right no matter how obvious it is you are wrong regardless of the cost to your own integrity and credibility.

[Mighty Oak]

Patriot911 wrote: Mighty Oak wrote: Do you work for Centcom?Cause you sure do want me to believe YOUR interpretation.Where does it say it's for Middle East conspiracies?The definition of population could very well mean the conspiracy crowd,right?You accuse me of misrepresenting this when in fact it is you who is misrepresenting this and putting more into it then it actually says.

I have interpreted what was on the web site in the spirit it was intended. Which terrorists do you think they are talking about? The Albanian ones? The Peruvians? The Oompa Loompans?

How many conspiracy theorists go on to be recruited by terrorists? Anybody from Alex Jones' staff suddenly turned up in Iraq fighting for the insurgents or on Al Qaeda videos? Where are these terrorists being recruited from. Does Al Qaeda have a booth at the conferences Alex Jones puts on?

If you are going to stand there and blatantly lie your a$$ off by stating any place other than the Middle East is where the terrorists do the vast majority of their recruiting from, then you're pretty much washed up as a debator because I've just proven you will continue to ineffectively try and prove you are right no matter how obvious it is you are wrong regardless of the cost to your own integrity and credibility. Sounds like I hit a nerve.Your the one making sh!t up.You conduct yourself just like the government,they will put something in writing then tell you it doesn't mean what it says,hmmmmm.Did you forget the part where it says that terrorist recruit more effectively?The Government is setting us up for mass incarceration.Grant it,it will be after the next big event,staged or real.

[Patriot911]

Mighty Oak wrote: Patriot911 wrote: Mighty Oak wrote: Do you work for Centcom?Cause you sure do want me to believe YOUR interpretation.Where does it say it's for Middle East conspiracies?The definition of population could very well mean the conspiracy crowd,right?You accuse me of misrepresenting this when in fact it is you who is misrepresenting this and putting more into it then it actually says.

I have interpreted what was on the web site in the spirit it was intended. Which terrorists do you think they are talking about? The Albanian ones? The Peruvians? The Oompa Loompans?

How many conspiracy theorists go on to be recruited by terrorists? Anybody from Alex Jones' staff suddenly turned up in Iraq fighting for the insurgents or on Al Qaeda videos? Where are these terrorists being recruited from. Does Al Qaeda have a booth at the conferences Alex Jones puts on?

If you are going to stand there and blatantly lie your a$$ off by stating any place other than the Middle East is where the terrorists do the vast majority of their recruiting from, then you're pretty much washed up as a debator because I've just proven you will continue to ineffectively try and prove you are right no matter how obvious it is you are wrong regardless of the cost to your own integrity and credibility. Sounds like I hit a nerve.Your the one making sh!t up.You conduct yourself just like the government,they will put something in writing then tell you it doesn't mean what it says,hmmmmm.Did you forget the part where it says that terrorist recruit more effectively?The Government is setting us up for mass incarceration.Grant it,it will be after the next big event,staged or real.

Don't flattrer yourself. :lol:

I've pointed out where you're wrong. Anyone with two functioning brain cells can see that what I am saying is true and correct and that you don't have a leg to stand on. You can sit there and cry all day that the government is coming to take you away, but it doesn't make it true. Lying about what the government says on a web site doesn't make it the law and doesn't mean they are coming to take you away. All it means is that you are paranoid, delusional, and have very poor comprehension and or integrity.

So why don't you ever answer the questions? You claim I am making sh!t up when I say that the government is talking about recruitment in the Middle East and then say the government could very well mean the conspiracy crowd. So back it up. Show the recruiting numbers for Al Qaeda in the conspiracy crowd vs. the Middle East. These are your claims. It is about time you stood up for the sh!t you write and back it up. Of course we both know you won't because you can't. No normal person is going to read about the best place for terrorist recruitment and think "Wow! They must be at the Alex Jones conventions!"

Face it. You got caught with your pants down around your ankles again. You make the claim the government is talking about the US conspiracy crowd and claiming this paragraph somehow is the government setting up mass internment of conspiracy theorists, but the facts don't show it. First, just because the government has it on a web page, this does not make it law no matter HOW big a temper tantrum you throw. Second, they are talking about conditions for recruiting terrorists. Thats it. You haven't even shown an example of how you are suppose to be knowingly aiding and abeting the terrorists. I've shown clearly how you are hurting both America AND the terrorists.

[Mighty Oak]

Quote: So why don't you ever answer the questions? You claim I am making sh!t up when I say that the government is talking about recruitment in the Middle East and then say the government could very well mean the conspiracy crowd. So back it up. Show the recruiting numbers for Al Qaeda in the conspiracy crowd vs. the Middle East. It's your choice if you want to misrepresent what I said.You understand damn well that what was refered here is that the Government states that conspiracy theories help terrorist recruit more effectively.Not that people who believe in such and such get recruited.Stop it with the stupid attempts at spinning this thing,it's childish and transparent.

[Patriot911]

Mighty Oak wrote: Quote: So why don't you ever answer the questions? You claim I am making sh!t up when I say that the government is talking about recruitment in the Middle East and then say the government could very well mean the conspiracy crowd. So back it up. Show the recruiting numbers for Al Qaeda in the conspiracy crowd vs. the Middle East. It's your choice if you want to misrepresent what I said.You understand damn well that what was refered here is that the Government states that conspiracy theories help terrorist recruit more effectively.Not that people who believe in such and such get recruited.Stop it with the stupid attempts at spinning this thing,it's childish and transparent.

I am not misrepresenting what you said. The government DOESN'T say conspiracy theorists help terrorists recruit more effectively. That is what you're pretending the government says. What the government REALLY says is that terrorists are more effective where the population can't get a picture of what is really going on because of lies and conspiracy theories.

This quote from the government says nothing at all about conspiracy theorists in general, nor are they talking about conspiracy theorists here in the US because the population of the US has free press, the Internet, and numerous other forms of media by which we can assertain the truth.

The MOST you can correctly assertain from this quote is that those people who create conspiracies in populations where the population does not have the means of getting a balanced view help terrorists directly or indirectly in their recruiting efforts. The quote says nothing about labeling these people as enemy combatants or even what should be done with these people. That is where you start making up all kinds of bullsh!t about this being proof the government is going to label conspiracy theorists as people who aid terrorists.

I've pointed out numerous examples of where your assertions can't be correct. You haven't addressed any of them. All you do is whine because I am showing that the logical conclusions of your assertions make your assertions seem moronic at best.

[Mighty Oak]

Patriot911 wrote: Mighty Oak wrote: Quote: So why don't you ever answer the questions? You claim I am making sh!t up when I say that the government is talking about recruitment in the Middle East and then say the government could very well mean the conspiracy crowd. So back it up. Show the recruiting numbers for Al Qaeda in the conspiracy crowd vs. the Middle East. It's your choice if you want to misrepresent what I said.You understand damn well that what was refered here is that the Government states that conspiracy theories help terrorist recruit more effectively.Not that people who believe in such and such get recruited.Stop it with the stupid attempts at spinning this thing,it's childish and transparent.

I am not misrepresenting what you said. The government DOESN'T say conspiracy theorists help terrorists recruit more effectively. That is what you're pretending the government says. What the government REALLY says is that terrorists are more effective where the population can't get a picture of what is really going on because of lies and conspiracy theories.

This quote from the government says nothing at all about conspiracy theorists in general, nor are they talking about conspiracy theorists here in the US because the population of the US has free press, the Internet, and numerous other forms of media by which we can assertain the truth.

The MOST you can correctly assertain from this quote is that those people who create conspiracies in populations where the population does not have the means of getting a balanced view help terrorists directly or indirectly in their recruiting efforts. The quote says nothing about labeling these people as enemy combatants or even what should be done with these people. That is where you start making up all kinds of bullsh!t about this being proof the government is going to label conspiracy theorists as people who aid terrorists.

I've pointed out numerous examples of where your assertions can't be correct. You haven't addressed any of them. All you do is whine because I am showing that the logical conclusions of your assertions make your assertions seem moronic at best. Just who then gets the info. out about conspiracies?CT's right?You act as if you know what the Government means and ignore what they say.

Btw,this is going NOWHERE.

[Patriot911]

Mighty Oak wrote: Patriot911 wrote: Mighty Oak wrote: Quote: So why don't you ever answer the questions? You claim I am making sh!t up when I say that the government is talking about recruitment in the Middle East and then say the government could very well mean the conspiracy crowd. So back it up. Show the recruiting numbers for Al Qaeda in the conspiracy crowd vs. the Middle East. It's your choice if you want to misrepresent what I said.You understand damn well that what was refered here is that the Government states that conspiracy theories help terrorist recruit more effectively.Not that people who believe in such and such get recruited.Stop it with the stupid attempts at spinning this thing,it's childish and transparent.

I am not misrepresenting what you said. The government DOESN'T say conspiracy theorists help terrorists recruit more effectively. That is what you're pretending the government says. What the government REALLY says is that terrorists are more effective where the population can't get a picture of what is really going on because of lies and conspiracy theories.

This quote from the government says nothing at all about conspiracy theorists in general, nor are they talking about conspiracy theorists here in the US because the population of the US has free press, the Internet, and numerous other forms of media by which we can assertain the truth.

The MOST you can correctly assertain from this quote is that those people who create conspiracies in populations where the population does not have the means of getting a balanced view help terrorists directly or indirectly in their recruiting efforts. The quote says nothing about labeling these people as enemy combatants or even what should be done with these people. That is where you start making up all kinds of bullsh!t about this being proof the government is going to label conspiracy theorists as people who aid terrorists.

I've pointed out numerous examples of where your assertions can't be correct. You haven't addressed any of them. All you do is whine because I am showing that the logical conclusions of your assertions make your assertions seem moronic at best. Just who then gets the info. out about conspiracies?CT's right?You act as if you know what the Government means and ignore what they say.

Btw,this is going NOWHERE.

This is going nowhere only because you are too ignorant to realize that at MOST the government would be talking about conspiracy theorists who spread conspiracies that help the terrorists recruit by demonizing the US. How does the conspiracy that takes away one of the terrorist's greatest achievements help terrorists recruit? It doesn't.

If a conspiracy theorist isn't promoting theories that help the terrorists or isn't promoting them in populations that have no other means of getting information then how is what the government wrote applicable to them at all?

It isn't. That is my whole point. You're blowing what the government said all out of proportion and claiming they are targeting conspiracy theorists when they clearly are not. Well, if you actually look at what the government wrote they clearly are not targeting conspiracy theorists. If you're paranoid, then ANY mention of ANY conspiracy in ANY contect is apparently a sign the government is after you. :rofl:

[Mighty Oak]

Patriot911 wrote: Mighty Oak wrote: Patriot911 wrote: Mighty Oak wrote: Quote: So why don't you ever answer the questions? You claim I am making sh!t up when I say that the government is talking about recruitment in the Middle East and then say the government could very well mean the conspiracy crowd. So back it up. Show the recruiting numbers for Al Qaeda in the conspiracy crowd vs. the Middle East. It's your choice if you want to misrepresent what I said.You understand damn well that what was refered here is that the Government states that conspiracy theories help terrorist recruit more effectively.Not that people who believe in such and such get recruited.Stop it with the stupid attempts at spinning this thing,it's childish and transparent.

I am not misrepresenting what you said. The government DOESN'T say conspiracy theorists help terrorists recruit more effectively. That is what you're pretending the government says. What the government REALLY says is that terrorists are more effective where the population can't get a picture of what is really going on because of lies and conspiracy theories.

This quote from the government says nothing at all about conspiracy theorists in general, nor are they talking about conspiracy theorists here in the US because the population of the US has free press, the Internet, and numerous other forms of media by which we can assertain the truth.

The MOST you can correctly assertain from this quote is that those people who create conspiracies in populations where the population does not have the means of getting a balanced view help terrorists directly or indirectly in their recruiting efforts. The quote says nothing about labeling these people as enemy combatants or even what should be done with these people. That is where you start making up all kinds of bullsh!t about this being proof the government is going to label conspiracy theorists as people who aid terrorists.

I've pointed out numerous examples of where your assertions can't be correct. You haven't addressed any of them. All you do is whine because I am showing that the logical conclusions of your assertions make your assertions seem moronic at best. Just who then gets the info. out about conspiracies?CT's right?You act as if you know what the Government means and ignore what they say.

Btw,this is going NOWHERE.

This is going nowhere only because you are too ignorant to realize that at MOST the government would be talking about conspiracy theorists who spread conspiracies that help the terrorists recruit by demonizing the US. How does the conspiracy that takes away one of the terrorist's greatest achievements help terrorists recruit? It doesn't.

If a conspiracy theorist isn't promoting theories that help the terrorists or isn't promoting them in populations that have no other means of getting information then how is what the government wrote applicable to them at all?

It isn't. That is my whole point. You're blowing what the government said all out of proportion and claiming they are targeting conspiracy theorists when they clearly are not. Well, if you actually look at what the government wrote they clearly are not targeting conspiracy theorists. If you're paranoid, then ANY mention of ANY conspiracy in ANY contect is apparently a sign the government is after you. :rofl: As I said,this is going nowhere.The FACT is that our Government can claim anyone as an enemy combatant and they do not have to show proof,not even acknowledge their existence as a human being,no trial,no charge,just gone.Do you like that policy?

[Patriot911]

Mighty Oak wrote: Patriot911 wrote: Mighty Oak wrote: Patriot911 wrote: Mighty Oak wrote: Quote: So why don't you ever answer the questions? You claim I am making sh!t up when I say that the government is talking about recruitment in the Middle East and then say the government could very well mean the conspiracy crowd. So back it up. Show the recruiting numbers for Al Qaeda in the conspiracy crowd vs. the Middle East. It's your choice if you want to misrepresent what I said.You understand damn well that what was refered here is that the Government states that conspiracy theories help terrorist recruit more effectively.Not that people who believe in such and such get recruited.Stop it with the stupid attempts at spinning this thing,it's childish and transparent.

I am not misrepresenting what you said. The government DOESN'T say conspiracy theorists help terrorists recruit more effectively. That is what you're pretending the government says. What the government REALLY says is that terrorists are more effective where the population can't get a picture of what is really going on because of lies and conspiracy theories.

This quote from the government says nothing at all about conspiracy theorists in general, nor are they talking about conspiracy theorists here in the US because the population of the US has free press, the Internet, and numerous other forms of media by which we can assertain the truth.

The MOST you can correctly assertain from this quote is that those people who create conspiracies in populations where the population does not have the means of getting a balanced view help terrorists directly or indirectly in their recruiting efforts. The quote says nothing about labeling these people as enemy combatants or even what should be done with these people. That is where you start making up all kinds of bullsh!t about this being proof the government is going to label conspiracy theorists as people who aid terrorists.

I've pointed out numerous examples of where your assertions can't be correct. You haven't addressed any of them. All you do is whine because I am showing that the logical conclusions of your assertions make your assertions seem moronic at best. Just who then gets the info. out about conspiracies?CT's right?You act as if you know what the Government means and ignore what they say.

Btw,this is going NOWHERE.

This is going nowhere only because you are too ignorant to realize that at MOST the government would be talking about conspiracy theorists who spread conspiracies that help the terrorists recruit by demonizing the US. How does the conspiracy that takes away one of the terrorist's greatest achievements help terrorists recruit? It doesn't.

If a conspiracy theorist isn't promoting theories that help the terrorists or isn't promoting them in populations that have no other means of getting information then how is what the government wrote applicable to them at all?

It isn't. That is my whole point. You're blowing what the government said all out of proportion and claiming they are targeting conspiracy theorists when they clearly are not. Well, if you actually look at what the government wrote they clearly are not targeting conspiracy theorists. If you're paranoid, then ANY mention of ANY conspiracy in ANY contect is apparently a sign the government is after you. :rofl: As I said,this is going nowhere.The FACT is that our Government can claim anyone as an enemy combatant and they do not have to show proof,not even acknowledge their existence as a human being,no trial,no charge,just gone.Do you like that policy?

Just because you claim it is fact does not make it a fact. The government cannot just claim anyone is an enemy combatant and you know it. But then again, you've made more outrageous claims before, so we all know lying and exaggerating aren't beneath you.

So I take it you concede that the government was not talking about US conspiracy theorists as they clearly do not match the people who would generate the conspiracy theories described in the government quote?

[Snake]

Mighty Oak wrote: This quote right here states clearly what they mean,"The terrorism we confront today springs from:

Subcultures of conspiracy and misinformation. Terrorists recruit more effectively from populations whose information about the world is contaminated by falsehoods and corrupted by conspiracy theories. The distortions keep alive grievances and filter out facts that would challenge popular prejudices and self-serving propaganda" Which is false. The only "threat" I can see is the undermining of the administration, which wouldn't be a problem, except a lot of people are doing it, and their numbers are increasing, and since we are at war right now.....
I can see where this is coming from, but the idea that "Terrorists recruit more effectively from populations whose information about the world is ...corrupted by conspiracy theories" is false. As I stated before, the Islamists would never side with the 'infadels' because they feel it's beneath them, and they have more than enough in their ranks willing to die for Allah.

Quote: Kamel,I understand what you are saying,though I disagree b/c our Government has made it perfectly clear that they are the ones to interpret the law. Perfectly understandable, the administration, along with numerous courts have done their fair share of "misinterperatations" in the past 6 years.

[Mighty Oak]

Quote: The government cannot just claim anyone is an enemy combatant Sure they can.Patriot act 1 and patriot act 2 with the Military Commissions Act of 2006 makes this a reality. Quote: So I take it you concede that the government was not talking about US conspiracy theorists as they clearly do not match the people who would generate the conspiracy theories described in the government quote? No,I've stated my case quite well and your opinion is just that.

[Patriot911]

Mighty Oak wrote: Quote: The government cannot just claim anyone is an enemy combatant Sure they can.Patriot act 1 and patriot act 2 with the Military Commissions Act of 2006 makes this a reality.
Wrong again. Nowhere in the wording of the Patriot acts or the military commissions act does it state the government can just grab anyone. You've been caught in yet another lie. Of course you have to keep lying to cover all the other lies. Its what is know as a vicious circle. The more you lie, the more you have to lie to cover the other lies. The only way to break the circle is to admit to the lie.

Mighty Oak wrote: Quote: So I take it you concede that the government was not talking about US conspiracy theorists as they clearly do not match the people who would generate the conspiracy theories described in the government quote? No,I've stated my case quite well and your opinion is just that.

You've stated your case extremely poorly and have failed to defend it even at a minimal level. It isn't my opinion that what you are trying to say the government said is a flagrant lie. I've proven it. You have failed to refute my debunking of your position. Therefore the debunking stands as stated.

The government quote you gave does not target conspiracy theorists in any way shape or form, and the conspiracy theorists the quote IS talking about would be non-US conspiracy theorists in a country without free press to show both sides of the story, and even then it says nothing of what policy the government has towards these conspiracy theorists.

You cannot get around this. No amount of stretching short of outright lying is going to change what the government said. We've already seen you are more than willing to lie, but now anyone reading this post will see that you are not only willing to lie, but to continue lying and make up new lies to cover for the initial lies.

The First Rule of Holes is that when you find yourself in a hole, quit digging. This would be a good rule for you to learn.

[Medius]

White House Site wrote: Subcultures of conspiracy and misinformation. Terrorists recruit more effectively from populations whose information about the world is contaminated by falsehoods and corrupted by conspiracy theories. The distortions keep alive grievances and filter out facts that would challenge popular prejudices and self-serving propaganda.

Communications, which allow terrorists the ability to receive, store, manipulate, and exchange information. The methods by which terrorists communicate are numerous and varied. Our enemies rely on couriers and face-to-face contacts with associates and tend to use what is accessible in their local areas as well as what they can afford. They also use today’s technologies with increasing acumen and sophistication. This is especially true with the Internet, which they exploit to create and disseminate propaganda, recruit new members, raise funds and other material resources, provide instruction on weapons and tactics, and plan operations. Without a communications ability, terrorist groups cannot effectively organize operations, execute attacks, or spread their ideology. We and our partners will continue to target the communication nodes of our enemy.

Propaganda operations, which are used by terrorists to justify violent action as well as inspire individuals to support or join the movement. The ability of terrorists to exploit the Internet and 24/7 worldwide media coverage allows them to bolster their prominence as well as feed a steady diet of radical ideology, twisted images, and conspiracy theories to potential recruits in all corners of the globe. Besides a global reach, these technologies allow terrorists to propagate their message quickly, often before an effective counter to terrorist messages can be coordinated and distributed. These are force multipliers for our enemy.

These portions were taken from the White House Website from the original post. You can see that there is a clear concern that the internet may be used to propagate conspiracies and radical ideology all over the globe, not just to target countries that have a lack of information.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/nsc/nsct/2006/sectionV.html

Now lets look at another message from the Federal Government.

Quote: Disaffected people living in the United States may develop radical ideologies and potentially violent skills over the Internet and that could present the next major U.S. security threat, U.S. Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff said on Monday.

"We now have a capability of someone to radicalize themselves over the Internet," Chertoff said on the sidelines of a meeting of International Association of the Chiefs of Police.

"They can train themselves over the Internet. They never have to necessarily go to the training camp or speak with anybody else and that diffusion of a combination of hatred and technical skills in things like bomb-making is a dangerous combination," Chertoff said. "Those are the kind of terrorists that we may not be able to detect with spies and satellites."

Chertoff pointed to the July 7, 2005 attacks on London's transit system, which killed 56 people, as an example a home-grown threat.

This was taken from a news story on yahoo (link below) that just as clearly indicates that the government is concerned about the potential for terrorists to target US citizens for recruitment and training.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061017/wr_nm/security_chertoff_dc_5

Now you can choose to believe that the government isn't going to start arresting conspiracy theorists, but it appears clear to me that the Federal Government is just as concerned about recruitment in the US as they are abroad. If recruitment can take place in the US it stands to reason that the percieved threat of conspiracy theories would hold true here as well.

[Snake]

Just for the sake of providing information, Here's the infamous patriot act.

enjoy.

[Patriot911]

Medius wrote: White House Site wrote: Subcultures of conspiracy and misinformation. Terrorists recruit more effectively from populations whose information about the world is contaminated by falsehoods and corrupted by conspiracy theories. The distortions keep alive grievances and filter out facts that would challenge popular prejudices and self-serving propaganda.

Communications, which allow terrorists the ability to receive, store, manipulate, and exchange information. The methods by which terrorists communicate are numerous and varied. Our enemies rely on couriers and face-to-face contacts with associates and tend to use what is accessible in their local areas as well as what they can afford. They also use today’s technologies with increasing acumen and sophistication. This is especially true with the Internet, which they exploit to create and disseminate propaganda, recruit new members, raise funds and other material resources, provide instruction on weapons and tactics, and plan operations. Without a communications ability, terrorist groups cannot effectively organize operations, execute attacks, or spread their ideology. We and our partners will continue to target the communication nodes of our enemy.

Propaganda operations, which are used by terrorists to justify violent action as well as inspire individuals to support or join the movement. The ability of terrorists to exploit the Internet and 24/7 worldwide media coverage allows them to bolster their prominence as well as feed a steady diet of radical ideology, twisted images, and conspiracy theories to potential recruits in all corners of the globe. Besides a global reach, these technologies allow terrorists to propagate their message quickly, often before an effective counter to terrorist messages can be coordinated and distributed. These are force multipliers for our enemy.

These portions were taken from the White House Website from the original post. You can see that there is a clear concern that the internet may be used to propagate conspiracies and radical ideology all over the globe, not just to target countries that have a lack of information.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/nsc/nsct/2006/sectionV.html

Now lets look at another message from the Federal Government.

Quote: Disaffected people living in the United States may develop radical ideologies and potentially violent skills over the Internet and that could present the next major U.S. security threat, U.S. Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff said on Monday.

"We now have a capability of someone to radicalize themselves over the Internet," Chertoff said on the sidelines of a meeting of International Association of the Chiefs of Police.

"They can train themselves over the Internet. They never have to necessarily go to the training camp or speak with anybody else and that diffusion of a combination of hatred and technical skills in things like bomb-making is a dangerous combination," Chertoff said. "Those are the kind of terrorists that we may not be able to detect with spies and satellites."

Chertoff pointed to the July 7, 2005 attacks on London's transit system, which killed 56 people, as an example a home-grown threat.

This was taken from a news story on yahoo (link below) that just as clearly indicates that the government is concerned about the potential for terrorists to target US citizens for recruitment and training.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061017/wr_nm/security_chertoff_dc_5

Now you can choose to believe that the government isn't going to start arresting conspiracy theorists, but it appears clear to me that the Federal Government is just as concerned about recruitment in the US as they are abroad. If recruitment can take place in the US it stands to reason that the percieved threat of conspiracy theories would hold true here as well.

The only way the government can arrest conspiracy theorists is if they repeal the first amendment. Period.

Should the government be concerned about people trying to stir things up over the Internet? Sure. Should they arrest them if they do something wrong? You betcha. But to claim they are going to start arresting people just because they believe or make up a conspiracy theory, well, that just isn't going to happen.

To say terrorists are recruiting here in the US from the conspiracy theory crowds is also stretching the truth far past the breaking point. The threat the government sees from conspiracy theories being used as a recruiting tool is limited to when the population is unable to obtain the truth.

Your own quote says quite clearly "The distortions keep alive grievances and filter out facts..." How does a conspiracy theory filter out the facts when the facts can come in through different means? In the Middle East they don't have freedom of the press and in many places, news is spread primarily by word of mouth. If you spread a conspiracy theory there, people have no way of knowing that they are being told a lie. They have no way of knowing the truth. This does NOT apply to the US.

[Medius]

Patriot911 wrote: The only way the government can arrest conspiracy theorists is if they repeal the first amendment. Period.

Not if they can prove that spreading conspiracy theories provides material support for terrorists under Title 18, 2339B

Patriot911 wrote:
Should the government be concerned about people trying to stir things up over the Internet? Sure. Should they arrest them if they do something wrong? You betcha. But to claim they are going to start arresting people just because they believe or make up a conspiracy theory, well, that just isn't going to happen.

I agree that chances are this would not lead to arrests any time soon. I worry that this will build a precedence upon which future governments may make incorrect jumps.

Patriot911 wrote:
To say terrorists are recruiting here in the US from the conspiracy theory crowds is also stretching the truth far past the breaking point. The threat the government sees from conspiracy theories being used as a recruiting tool is limited to when the population is unable to obtain the truth.

Ever since the Okalahoma City bombing, the Federal government has had a real concern about US based terrorism. The terror manuals after 9/11 included various domestic groups that could be or become terrorists. One of those were Constitutionalists (listen to a Conspiracy Theorist and you'll quickly find out they are almost always Constitutionalists). You are limiting your perception of terrorists to just the muslim terrorist groups. The government does not limit its scope as it has shown in publications.

Patriot911 wrote:
Your own quote says quite clearly "The distortions keep alive grievances and filter out facts..." How does a conspiracy theory filter out the facts when the facts can come in through different means? In the Middle East they don't have freedom of the press and in many places, news is spread primarily by word of mouth. If you spread a conspiracy theory there, people have no way of knowing that they are being told a lie. They have no way of knowing the truth. This does NOT apply to the US.

Yes, I try to quote as much as necessary to give context and not materially edit any articles.

"The distortions keep alive grievances and filter out facts..." does not in anyway indicate that the subject is only those places that have no other facts available. You accused me of stretching earlier, but you are pulling an implication out of a sentance that just doesn't follow. If having access to the "facts" removes the possibility of conspiracy theories causing discontent among the population, why in the world are there so many conspiracy theorists in the US?

It is the mentality and the availability that scares them more than the environment. They clearly state that the person must be willing to kill to fit into the terrorist model, so they are obviously not in a state of mind that would be easily swayed by the media "facts" that are easily available in America.

As I said, I'm not too worried about the government running about arresting conspiracy theorists. My concern is mostly regarding the possible directions towards limitation of speech that may be suggested as a proactive step or the possible arrest and prosecution of conspiracy theorists years from now when someone decides to abuse the wide-open system we are building now.

[Patriot911]

Medius wrote: Patriot911 wrote: The only way the government can arrest conspiracy theorists is if they repeal the first amendment. Period.

Not if they can prove that spreading conspiracy theories provides material support for terrorists under Title 18, 2339B
That would be a mighty hard thing to prove and similar cases have been tried before and upheld by the supreme court. You can't blame the actions of others on the words of another. Now if they had proof that the conspiracy theorists received payment from the terrorists and the like, then that is a different story. They can't be arrested just for conspiracy theories.

Medius wrote: Patriot911 wrote:
Should the government be concerned about people trying to stir things up over the Internet? Sure. Should they arrest them if they do something wrong? You betcha. But to claim they are going to start arresting people just because they believe or make up a conspiracy theory, well, that just isn't going to happen.

I agree that chances are this would not lead to arrests any time soon. I worry that this will build a precedence upon which future governments may make incorrect jumps.
Going into analysis paralysis because you are afraid any move by the government would lead to future government abuse isn't a good way to go about things. We should be vigilant that our government never attempts to try these kinds of things, but to claim they are going to from what they post on a web site that doesn't even talk about what they claim is going too far.

Medius wrote: Patriot911 wrote: To say terrorists are recruiting here in the US from the conspiracy theory crowds is also stretching the truth far past the breaking point. The threat the government sees from conspiracy theories being used as a recruiting tool is limited to when the population is unable to obtain the truth.

Ever since the Okalahoma City bombing, the Federal government has had a real concern about US based terrorism. The terror manuals after 9/11 included various domestic groups that could be or become terrorists. One of those were Constitutionalists (listen to a Conspiracy Theorist and you'll quickly find out they are almost always Constitutionalists). You are limiting your perception of terrorists to just the muslim terrorist groups. The government does not limit its scope as it has shown in publications.

You have a point, but right now the WoT is specifically focused on Muslim based terrorism, and this is clearly the focus of what was posted on the government web site. I am not saying the government is ignoring home grown terrorism, but that isn't their focus.

Medius wrote: Patriot911 wrote: Your own quote says quite clearly "The distortions keep alive grievances and filter out facts..." How does a conspiracy theory filter out the facts when the facts can come in through different means? In the Middle East they don't have freedom of the press and in many places, news is spread primarily by word of mouth. If you spread a conspiracy theory there, people have no way of knowing that they are being told a lie. They have no way of knowing the truth. This does NOT apply to the US.

Yes, I try to quote as much as necessary to give context and not materially edit any articles.

"The distortions keep alive grievances and filter out facts..." does not in anyway indicate that the subject is only those places that have no other facts available. You accused me of stretching earlier, but you are pulling an implication out of a sentance that just doesn't follow. If having access to the "facts" removes the possibility of conspiracy theories causing discontent among the population, why in the world are there so many conspiracy theorists in the US?

It is the assertion of the government quote that a population that is only exposed to conspiracy theories and lies is a ripe recruiting environment for terrorism. The conspiracy theories they are talking about aren't the petty conspiracies we talk about here in the US. They don't care who killed JFK or whether or not Silverstein meant demolish when he said "pull it". The conspiracy theories they are talking about are theories like the US wishes to wage war against all of Islam and wants to kill them. Its the kind of conspiracy theory that directly involves them and impacts their lives.

Having access to the facts provides balance. If the US population was exposed to nothing but conspiracy theories about 9/11 and nothing to balance that perception, then the whole of the US would be demanding Bush be executed. This CLEARLY is not the case even though you find people on this board who want exactly that. But the US population IS exposed to free press and other outlets for information. This very outlet is what leads to the abundance of conspiracy theorists out there because they can now collaborate and feed off of each other.

Medius wrote: It is the mentality and the availability that scares them more than the environment. They clearly state that the person must be willing to kill to fit into the terrorist model, so they are obviously not in a state of mind that would be easily swayed by the media "facts" that are easily available in America.

As I said, I'm not too worried about the government running about arresting conspiracy theorists. My concern is mostly regarding the possible directions towards limitation of speech that may be suggested as a proactive step or the possible arrest and prosecution of conspiracy theorists years from now when someone decides to abuse the wide-open system we are building now.

And when that happens, I will be standing there beside you protesting this restriction and voting others into office that will remove such restrictions. It is a good thing to be aware of the government attempts to do this, but it is a bad thing to go off half cocked because of reading things into what a government web site says.

[Mighty Oak]

Quote: That would be a mighty hard thing to prove and similar cases have been tried before and upheld by the supreme court. You can't blame the actions of others on the words of another. Now if they had proof that the conspiracy theorists received payment from the terrorists and the like, then that is a different story. They can't be arrested just for conspiracy theories. For the last time,I hope,the government does not need to prove or even charge you with anything.All that needs to be done is the Prez. to say that you are an enemy combatant.There is no court for you then,no nothing,just incarceration or death....oh yea and torture.

[Patriot911]

Mighty Oak wrote: Quote: That would be a mighty hard thing to prove and similar cases have been tried before and upheld by the supreme court. You can't blame the actions of others on the words of another. Now if they had proof that the conspiracy theorists received payment from the terrorists and the like, then that is a different story. They can't be arrested just for conspiracy theories. For the last time,I hope,the government does not need to prove or even charge you with anything.All that needs to be done is the Prez. to say that you are an enemy combatant.There is no court for you then,no nothing,just incarceration or death....oh yea and torture.

I know it is useless to ask you this, but I will anyway. Can you prove this? Don't take the **** way out and just point at the patriot act. I've read it. I've read the military one too. There is oversight. The president can't just claim someone is an enemy combatant without providing some proof and be done with it.

[Mighty Oak]

Patriot911 wrote: Mighty Oak wrote: Quote: That would be a mighty hard thing to prove and similar cases have been tried before and upheld by the supreme court. You can't blame the actions of others on the words of another. Now if they had proof that the conspiracy theorists received payment from the terrorists and the like, then that is a different story. They can't be arrested just for conspiracy theories. For the last time,I hope,the government does not need to prove or even charge you with anything.All that needs to be done is the Prez. to say that you are an enemy combatant.There is no court for you then,no nothing,just incarceration or death....oh yea and torture.

I know it is useless to ask you this, but I will anyway. Can you prove this? Don't take the **** way out and just point at the patriot act. I've read it. I've read the military one too. There is oversight. The president can't just claim someone is an enemy combatant without providing some proof and be done with it. You act as if I'm making this up when you damn well know that I am far from alone on this position.You know all about this yet you claim ignorance. Olbermann: The Day Habeas Corpus Died

Crooks & Liars | October 18 2006

Today, 135 years to the day after the last American President (Ulysses S. Grant) suspended habeas corpus, President Bush signed into law the Military Commissions Act of 2006. At its worst, the legislation allows President Bush or Donald Rumsfeld to declare anyone — US citizen or not — an enemy combatant, lock them up and throw away the key without a chance to prove their innocence in a court of law. In other words, every thing the Founding Fathers fought the British empire to free themselves of was reversed and nullified with the stroke of a pen, all under the guise of the War on Terror.

Jonathan Turley joined Keith to talk about the law that Senator Feingold said would be seen as "a stain on our nation's history."

Turley: "People have no idea how significant this is. Really a time of shame this is for the American system.—The strange thing is that we have become sort of constitutional couch potatoes. The Congress just gave the President despotic powers and you could hear the yawn across the country as people turned to Dancing With the Stars. It's otherworldly..People clearly don't realize what a fundamental change it is about who we are as a country. What happened today changed us. And I'm not too sure we're gonna change back anytime soon."

http://infowars.com/articles/ps/military_commissions_olbermann_day_habeas_corpus_died.htm

I'll grant you that this is an op-ed piece,but you know where to find the source.As you know I am far from alone.