Political Crossfire Forums

[Dennis]

[quote="thintheherd"] Dennis wrote: thintheherd wrote: Dennis wrote: thintheherd wrote: Dennis wrote: I support the Flat Tax and I support it applied to an income tax at the same percentage for everyone, accross the board (perferably 12% but as high as 17% if need be). No other tax need apply, except a pollution tax.
A flat tax sounds peachy and fair, but you do realize it's a tax on production, among other detriments... read on.

Yes, I do understand that. So, keep producing! A National Sales tax is a tax on consumption. Therefore, to avoid taxation (which we would be allowed to do) we would not consume. Say goodbye to the economy!
You say that as though a gallon of milk would be higher under the FairTax. Proof you do not understand it.

No proof whatsoever. I buy less in states that have a sales tax, period.
thintheherd wrote: I wasn't trying to prove you are petty enough to worry about a 4-10% exclusive tax, you did a fine job of that yourself.

Exactly what is petty about expecting people to pay their fair share?

Dennis wrote: Dennis wrote: thintheherd wrote: Dennis wrote: There is nothing wrong with supporting the country that enabled you to have an income to begin with by giving a SMALL portion of that money you made to the government in order to enable it to do the job it is supposed to be doing.
I don't see a third or more of my income as 'small'.

We're talking about The Flat Tax; please stay on track. 12% of 100% is not one third! It's not even one fourth.
thintheherd wrote: Point taken, I thought you were referring to the current income tax. It's still taken against your will.

Once again, you are living in a fantasy.
thintheherd wrote: Great dodge of my question as to what happens when you decide not to pay your income tax, flat or not... well done. Don't worry, you'll have another opportunity below.

What dodge? I simply pointed out that you are living some sort of fantasy, governement conspiracy where men in dark suites are coming to your house every day and pointing a gun at you and taking your money. :lol:

Dennis wrote: Dennis wrote: There is, however, something wrong with taxing everything I choose to buy. Why should I be taxed on an item I choose to buy, simply because I choose to buy it? That's a load of crap. I purposely buy less because of that and if the Fair Tax is enacted, the amount of tax on all of the goods out there will probably rise, causing me and most others to buy less. How is that good for the economy. In states I have been in where there is no sales tax, I usually bought more. That's good for the economy. Those states also proove that sales tax is not needed.
thintheherd wrote: Because you would have the choice that's why.

So, yourself is more important than your community and your country? Wow, that's so honorable of you. You should be proud of yourself. Too bad without a country, you will have no self. The community enables "self" in today's world.
thintheherd wrote: ...It is about 'the people' having back the power that we ignorantly handed to our government.

That is where you are focusing in the wrong direction. Power to the people is a good thing. But, when it comes to a tax that will provide the government its capability to operate, it must be one that will actually do that. Your Sales Tax will not do that because, as you have stated yourself, people will often decide "not to pay" simply by not purchasing (great for the economy too).

Dennis wrote: Dennis wrote: thintheherd wrote: Dennis wrote: As well, only having a "national sales tax" - the so-called Fair Tax - would cause the government to fall flat on its face because people would only buy when they absolutely needed to because of being taxed on it. This would disrupt the income government needs to operate effectively. That is not smart.
You need to read up on the Fairtax. Unfortunately you don't really understand it.

Enlighten me then. I see nothing more than a National Sales Tax that will throw our economy and government into the crapper.
thintheherd wrote: And you'd be wrong again. Also, it's not my job to educate you. There has been plenty written on the subject. If you'd like to intelligently comment on a subject then the onus is clearly on you. Try all 23 pages of this thread for starters:

http://www.politicalcrossfire.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=60971&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

I've debunked all of your assertions including the ones you have below.

You haven't debunked jack. All you can say is "your wrong" with no facts to back it up.
thintheherd wrote: *sigh* The facts are in the FairTax thread linked. I see no reason to regurgitate them here for you.

I've read it. It makes as much sense as you are making...none.

Dennis wrote: Dennis wrote: thintheherd wrote: Dennis wrote: A Flat Tax on income would keep the government's ability to operate continuous because everyone needs income.
Have no idea what you mean here.

With a sales tax, the government's income would be sporadic because we choose when and if we need to buy anything. The government cannot run on a sporadic income. With an income tax, the government's income is constant because we constantly need income. With a constant income the government can run and do its job.
thintheherd wrote: Wrong again. Unless you can prove to me that the GDP is not equally as consistent as the employment/salary rates.

You seriously need to think about this one some more. This should be common sense.
thintheherd wrote: Hey, it's your assertion.. prove it.

Read my post; I already have.

Dennis wrote: Dennis wrote: thintheherd wrote: Dennis wrote: We don't need taxation on anything except pollution and the income our country enables us to make for ourselves and only at a flat rate that's the same for everyone regardless of income level.
But it's not the same for everyone. Do you agree that 12% of a poor mans income is means more to him than does 12% of a rich mans income?

Therein lies the problem...

I don't see every citizen paying his or her fair share as a problem, especially when the poor man is only paying 12% of $10,000 (less than what he is paying now) while the rich man only pays 12% of $100,000,000.
thintheherd wrote: Actually, aside from embedded taxes every consumer pays

Once again, I am talking about the Flat Tax, not today's taxes. With the Flat Tax, all other taxes would be abolished, including sales tax. Please, keep up.
thintheherd wrote: ...What you fail to realize is that any tax on income carries with it embedded taxes....

What you fail to realize is that a Flat Tax would and should not carry with it embedded taxes. I do not support embedded taxes.

thintheherd wrote: ...Tell us now that you are ok with paying your 'fair share' of a flat corporate income tax, or that your pay is lower because your boss wants more net income. Yes, tell us please.

Once again, you are not paying attention. One Flat Tax...12% of income, no matter what your income level...no other tax. Period. That is what I am talking about. I'm getting tired of saying this over and over.

Dennis wrote: thintheherd wrote: someone making 10K pays near nothing in federal income taxes.

Having said that, why in the world would you have a problem with that poor man paying NOTHING under the FairTax and the rich man paying MORE than your 12% example?

I have a problem with it because everyone should pay their fair share and it should be the same for everyone, period.
thintheherd wrote: OK... so progressiveness is not for you. Fine, your bed.

Personally, I think it's IS progressive to have everyone actually start paying an equal amount and a fair share.

Dennis wrote: Dennis wrote: thintheherd wrote: The income tax in this country is nothing more than forced extraction. Payment at the point of a gun.

That's a bunch of crap. At least make the effort to try a different line of rhetoric; we've all heard that one before. How do you think you even got your income to begin with? This country enables your income. You owe it that. To say it has a gun to your head is very immature. If it is so forced, then why don't you move, or are they forcing you to live here too?
thintheherd wrote: You are in no position to call me immature.


Yes, I am. You are living in a fantasy of the government forcing you to pay, as if they are forcing you to live here and pay your fair share.
thintheherd wrote: Yeah, right.... and again... what happens if you don't pay? Exactly which part of forfeiting your assets and potential prison time is fantasy?

Why is it wrong to be in trouble for not paying your fair share? If that is such a problem, perhaps a better punishment would be to get kicked the hell out of the country if you are not going to do your part. This sounds like a good idea for folks like you.

Dennis wrote: thintheherd wrote: By the way... talk about crap.. This 'country' does not 'enable' my income. I do. I offer my labor and expertise in exchange for monetary compensation in contracts with my clients/employers. My 'country' has nothing to do with that exchange apart from protecting my right to do so.

Read your own post that I have boldened. You have made my point exactly. Thank you. :lol:
thintheherd wrote: ...That right is not 'enabled' by a government, only protected. Big difference.

Really? Ask people in Cuba or Iran what they are "able" to do. :lol: Take a look at "the old country" and see how much we were "able" to do back then.

Dennis wrote: Dennis wrote: thintheherd wrote: ... The Fairtax, by contrast is voluntary. If you don't want to pay it- dont!

Yeah, that's smart. So, don't pay anything and flush our government, not to mention our economy, right down the toilet. Real smart. How do you expect government to do its job (national defense, police, fire, maintaining streets, etc) if the income required to do that job comes from a completly unstable platform such as when and if the people choose to give it money! What makes you think we would have a stable economy if we could choose to avoid taxes by not buying anything? That's completly irresponsible.
thintheherd wrote: I don't know how you cannot see the benefits of placing more of the power of what the gov't does in the hands of the people.

Here's the thing... the gov't is going to spend money if you give it to them. Often more than they take in. You are telling me that you are comfortable with them raising your commitment to that spending whenever they need to rather than having control of the purse strings yourself. Yeah, that's smart eh?

I understand your concern for keeping the government in check about spending; that's one of the reasons why I support the Flat Tax. Otherwise, your Sales Tax will disable the government, all because you want to be greedy. That's not smart. Because of that, it will never happen.
thintheherd wrote: What does greed have to do with putting the power back in the hands of "We the People"?

Nothing. But, there is something wrong with being so greedy that you don't want to part with a penny to enable your country to operate effectively, especially one as great as ours that enables you to have that penny. (Yeah, I said enables :P ).

thintheherd wrote: And how in the world do you believe that a flat tax on your income will curb spending?

Gee, I don't know...probably because the government would receive LESS money than what they are receiving now, since a Flat Tax is not a progressive tax and does NOT tax production. Think. However, unlike your Sales Tax, even though the Flat Tax would lessen the government's income, it would still be steady income in order for the government to actually be a government. Your Sales Tax would not be steady and would be completly unstable. How can a government run with an unsteady income? That's nonsense!

Dennis wrote: Dennis wrote: The Flat Tax allows the government to continue its job. It also alows the economy to survive, and even thrive since you wouldn't be taxed more if you produce more. To top it off, The Flat Tax is a "Fair" way to make that happen, requiring the same amount from everyone corralated to their income level.
thintheherd wrote: Yeah, if that job is taking money away from you whenever they see fit.

Actually, it would be at regular intervals, not whenver they see fit. Where did you get such a strange idea? Once again, I am talking about the Flat Tax, not today's taxes. AGAIN, please stay on track.
thintheherd wrote: Oh yes, regular intervals, kind of like their pay raises. :roll: Lest we forget about all of the exemptions that are sure to follow keeping k-street alive and well.

You actually give this as a reason to not do the Flat Tax? Why wouldn't they do it with the Sales Tax? Their pay raises are a concern that has nothing to do with the Flat Tax or any other tax! You are getting way off track. Their pay raises are a concern that we can and should deal with on a seperate case. It's certainly not a reason to throw away the idea of the Flat Tax.

Dennis wrote: thintheherd wrote: I sure wish that you had the 25+ years of real world experience this 'immature' poster has to see that.

What a joke. Because you are senior that makes you smarter? Heh...you still have a lot to learn. Senority does not guarantee intelligence. You, being so smart, should know that. My experience in the working world (16 years) has shown me plenty; it has shown me enough to understand that we need a government (one capable of operating), we need a fair tax system (the Flat Tax), and we need to be willing to pay our share and not be greedy bastards.
thintheherd wrote: Again with the greed :roll:

Well, you are exihibiting that trait very well.

Dennis wrote: Your kind is on the way out the door. Get used to it. :twisted:
thintheherd wrote: My kind? My kind? And just what kind is that? The kind that believes in freedom of choice?

No. The kind that believes they should keep every penny without giving one, single cent to the government "because they earned it". The kind that enjoys the freedoms and the privilages of living in the kind of country that we do, but doesn't believe they should have to pay for it or contribute to it.

thintheherd wrote: If you are our successors, I pity us all.

Don't. We're going to fix what you have messed up, as usual. :twisted:

[CountryGuy]

Most people are happy paying something toward the government. However, we also expect that government to use our funds wisely.

In addition, we expect that we can decide for ourselves where charity should go, not for the government to spend our earnings on foreign countries and various interest groups.

[Tempest]

I'm all for it. Since the government has no problem whatsoever spending more than they get why even bother with income tax?