Political Crossfire Forums

[thintheherd]

Mighty Oak wrote: thintheherd wrote: wyldejackyl wrote: Like any government, there's no way to change it unless you force it to change, and that can't come about by voting (usually). By law I can rob you blind. Why would I want to change that law? That's how the government thinks. That's how the IRS works. You give us what we want, and we'll leave you alone. You don't, and we can do whatever is within our power to make your life hell, including take away everything you own- and then some.

Who's going to stand against people that have that sort of power?
Well we should of course, we do out number them by nearly 300,000,000 as of this week. ;)

Change has been brought about by the will of the people before. I see no reason why it cannot happen again. It just takes renewed effort on the part of the normally apathetic. Your Income tax pays the interest on the money borrowed from the Federal Reserve.That alone is a fraud.If people really understood how all of this works you would certainly not be in favor of a fair tax.
Here's a question, just what does the source of the governments funds have to do with Federal Reserve interest payment fraud?

Please... do enlighten us as to how 'all of this works'.

[thintheherd]

wyldejackyl wrote: I'm not sure a fair tax would work..but I do know for sure that a massive reduction in taxation woudl be good for everyone, and a national sales tax might work better as well. If by fair tax, you mean 15% for all, or something like that.
Not sure if you are directing your question to me but no, the FairTax is real legislation currently pending in Congress as HR 25/S 25. Here is the best "quick" referrence on what the FairTax is all about:

http://www.fairtax.org/fairtax/about.htm

[JohnnyQ]

thintheherd wrote: Mighty Oak wrote: thintheherd wrote: wyldejackyl wrote: Like any government, there's no way to change it unless you force it to change, and that can't come about by voting (usually). By law I can rob you blind. Why would I want to change that law? That's how the government thinks. That's how the IRS works. You give us what we want, and we'll leave you alone. You don't, and we can do whatever is within our power to make your life hell, including take away everything you own- and then some.

Who's going to stand against people that have that sort of power?
Well we should of course, we do out number them by nearly 300,000,000 as of this week. ;)

Change has been brought about by the will of the people before. I see no reason why it cannot happen again. It just takes renewed effort on the part of the normally apathetic. Your Income tax pays the interest on the money borrowed from the Federal Reserve.That alone is a fraud.If people really understood how all of this works you would certainly not be in favor of a fair tax.
Here's a question, just what does the source of the governments funds have to do with Federal Reserve interest payment fraud?

Please... do enlighten us as to how 'all of this works'.

I suggest you read the Grace Commission reports about the Income Tax.

http://www.uhuh.com/taxstuff/list-gra.htm

Abolish the private corporation known as the Federal Reserve.

[thintheherd]

yanniv wrote: thintheherd wrote: Mighty Oak wrote: thintheherd wrote: wyldejackyl wrote: Like any government, there's no way to change it unless you force it to change, and that can't come about by voting (usually). By law I can rob you blind. Why would I want to change that law? That's how the government thinks. That's how the IRS works. You give us what we want, and we'll leave you alone. You don't, and we can do whatever is within our power to make your life hell, including take away everything you own- and then some.

Who's going to stand against people that have that sort of power?
Well we should of course, we do out number them by nearly 300,000,000 as of this week. ;)

Change has been brought about by the will of the people before. I see no reason why it cannot happen again. It just takes renewed effort on the part of the normally apathetic. Your Income tax pays the interest on the money borrowed from the Federal Reserve.That alone is a fraud.If people really understood how all of this works you would certainly not be in favor of a fair tax.
Here's a question, just what does the source of the governments funds have to do with Federal Reserve interest payment fraud?

Please... do enlighten us as to how 'all of this works'.

I suggest you read the Grace Commission reports about the Income Tax.

http://www.uhuh.com/taxstuff/list-gra.htm

Abolish the private corporation known as the Federal Reserve.
That doesn't answer my question. It merely states the obvious, that the government cannot be trusted with our money and is off topic.

My question stands.... Knowing that taxes are a necessary evil, I reiterate: " ..just what does the source of the governments funds have to do with Federal Reserve interest payment fraud?"

It was meant for the individual that lambasted the FairTax citing the above as his reason.

[JohnnyQ]

thintheherd wrote: yanniv wrote: thintheherd wrote: Mighty Oak wrote: thintheherd wrote: wyldejackyl wrote: Like any government, there's no way to change it unless you force it to change, and that can't come about by voting (usually). By law I can rob you blind. Why would I want to change that law? That's how the government thinks. That's how the IRS works. You give us what we want, and we'll leave you alone. You don't, and we can do whatever is within our power to make your life hell, including take away everything you own- and then some.

Who's going to stand against people that have that sort of power?
Well we should of course, we do out number them by nearly 300,000,000 as of this week. ;)

Change has been brought about by the will of the people before. I see no reason why it cannot happen again. It just takes renewed effort on the part of the normally apathetic. Your Income tax pays the interest on the money borrowed from the Federal Reserve.That alone is a fraud.If people really understood how all of this works you would certainly not be in favor of a fair tax.
Here's a question, just what does the source of the governments funds have to do with Federal Reserve interest payment fraud?

Please... do enlighten us as to how 'all of this works'.

I suggest you read the Grace Commission reports about the Income Tax.

http://www.uhuh.com/taxstuff/list-gra.htm

Abolish the private corporation known as the Federal Reserve.
That doesn't answer my question. It merely states the obvious, that the government cannot be trusted with our money and is off topic.

My question stands.... Knowing that taxes are a necessary evil, I reiterate: " ..just what does the source of the governments funds have to do with Federal Reserve interest payment fraud?"

It was meant for the individual that lambasted the FairTax citing the above as his reason.

Fair enough.

[Mighty Oak]

thintheherd wrote: Mighty Oak wrote: thintheherd wrote: wyldejackyl wrote: Like any government, there's no way to change it unless you force it to change, and that can't come about by voting (usually). By law I can rob you blind. Why would I want to change that law? That's how the government thinks. That's how the IRS works. You give us what we want, and we'll leave you alone. You don't, and we can do whatever is within our power to make your life hell, including take away everything you own- and then some.

Who's going to stand against people that have that sort of power?
Well we should of course, we do out number them by nearly 300,000,000 as of this week. ;)

Change has been brought about by the will of the people before. I see no reason why it cannot happen again. It just takes renewed effort on the part of the normally apathetic. Your Income tax pays the interest on the money borrowed from the Federal Reserve.That alone is a fraud.If people really understood how all of this works you would certainly not be in favor of a fair tax.
Here's a question, just what does the source of the governments funds have to do with Federal Reserve interest payment fraud?

Please... do enlighten us as to how 'all of this works'. First question:All new money is loaned into circulation as an interest bearing debt. Since this system only creates the "principal" and never the interest, the debt is always greater than the money supply.It's impossible to ever pay the debt.2nd question:No,it's obvious that you are being a (E=mc2)

[thintheherd]

Mighty Oak wrote: thintheherd wrote: Mighty Oak wrote: thintheherd wrote: wyldejackyl wrote: Like any government, there's no way to change it unless you force it to change, and that can't come about by voting (usually). By law I can rob you blind. Why would I want to change that law? That's how the government thinks. That's how the IRS works. You give us what we want, and we'll leave you alone. You don't, and we can do whatever is within our power to make your life hell, including take away everything you own- and then some.

Who's going to stand against people that have that sort of power?
Well we should of course, we do out number them by nearly 300,000,000 as of this week. ;)

Change has been brought about by the will of the people before. I see no reason why it cannot happen again. It just takes renewed effort on the part of the normally apathetic. Your Income tax pays the interest on the money borrowed from the Federal Reserve.That alone is a fraud.If people really understood how all of this works you would certainly not be in favor of a fair tax.
Here's a question, just what does the source of the governments funds have to do with Federal Reserve interest payment fraud?

Please... do enlighten us as to how 'all of this works'. First question:All new money is loaned into circulation as an interest bearing debt. Since this system only creates the "principal" and never the interest, the debt is always greater than the money supply.It's impossible to ever pay the debt.2nd question:No,it's obvious that you are being a (E=mc2)
Um... Neither is a question. Your point? <[question]

[Mighty Oak]

thintheherd wrote: Mighty Oak wrote: thintheherd wrote: Mighty Oak wrote: thintheherd wrote: wyldejackyl wrote: Like any government, there's no way to change it unless you force it to change, and that can't come about by voting (usually). By law I can rob you blind. Why would I want to change that law? That's how the government thinks. That's how the IRS works. You give us what we want, and we'll leave you alone. You don't, and we can do whatever is within our power to make your life hell, including take away everything you own- and then some.

Who's going to stand against people that have that sort of power?
Well we should of course, we do out number them by nearly 300,000,000 as of this week. ;)

Change has been brought about by the will of the people before. I see no reason why it cannot happen again. It just takes renewed effort on the part of the normally apathetic. Your Income tax pays the interest on the money borrowed from the Federal Reserve.That alone is a fraud.If people really understood how all of this works you would certainly not be in favor of a fair tax.
Here's a question, just what does the source of the governments funds have to do with Federal Reserve interest payment fraud?

Please... do enlighten us as to how 'all of this works'. First question:All new money is loaned into circulation as an interest bearing debt. Since this system only creates the "principal" and never the interest, the debt is always greater than the money supply.It's impossible to ever pay the debt.2nd question:No,it's obvious that you are being a (E=mc2)
Um... Neither is a question. Your point? What?I'm answering YOUR question.DUH

[lester1/2jr]

I would support a temporary ban on the federal income tax just to stop these people from the outrageous spening that's become the norm. 2.7 trillion dollar budget this year. what are they gonna do if we cut them off borrow 2.6trillion from china and pass the hat around? probably


if you look at the federal budget it's ridiculous. most of it goes to bueurocracy and assistants to assistants who all make 100,000+, subsidies to things that shouldn't be subsidized and "aid" to countries who hate us.

[CountryGuy]

lester1/2jr wrote: I would support a temporary ban on the federal income tax just to stop these people from the outrageous spening that's become the norm. 2.7 trillion dollar budget this year. what are they gonna do if we cut them off borrow 2.6trillion from china and pass the hat around? probably


if you look at the federal budget it's ridiculous. most of it goes to bueurocracy and assistants to assistants who all make 100,000+, subsidies to things that shouldn't be subsidized and "aid" to countries who hate us.

A temporary ban?? What, do you think you shut down a government like you would a quickie mart? I understand (and to some extent support) some of what you're trying to do, but this implementation is not the way to do so.

As for the government's size, it is too large. But unless you are trying to abandon a federal government entirely you will require an infrastructure -- Given the size of our country, it will be a sizable one.

[lester1/2jr]

I would rather abandon the federal government than continue with a budget that size. state income taxes could be increased. the federal government is a waste of money. sure, you need a military and you don't want planes crashing into each other and whatnot, but look at 9/11. they couldn't prevent the one thing they are supposed to do. our taxes go to insane countries that hate us, corporations that are already as rich as many countries, programs that don't work and military systems from the cold war that do nothing to help us fight terror. I'm not being faceitious either. watch C Span sometime. you see Nancy pelosi and Bill Frist, people who couldn't run a 7-11, controlling billions of dollars.

We need a system like Ireland

[CountryGuy]

lester1/2jr wrote: I would rather abandon the federal government than continue with a budget that size. state income taxes could be increased. the federal government is a waste of money. sure, you need a military and you don't want planes crashing into each other and whatnot, but look at 9/11. they couldn't prevent the one thing they are supposed to do. our taxes go to insane countries that hate us, corporations that are already as rich as many countries, programs that don't work and military systems from the cold war that do nothing to help us fight terror. I'm not being faceitious either. watch C Span sometime. you see Nancy pelosi and Bill Frist, people who couldn't run a 7-11, controlling billions of dollars.

We need a system like Ireland

Whoa, whoa, whoa... Ireland? I lived there for several years around Y2K. 30% flat tax on income is NOT what I would consider enjoyable. Oh, and the heft VAT taxes on purchases. WONDERFUL country in which to live - And I miss it terribly, but I wouldn't say its because of their taxation system.

As for shutting down the government, you already pointed out to yourself why that couldn't be done. There are too many essential services required for a modern country. Not going to happen, nor should it.

And as for Nancy Pelosi and Bill Frist, I agree with you -- But then again, should you be mad at them for their lack of competence, or us for voting them into those roles in the first place?

[lester1/2jr]

Apparently someone has been blowing smoke up my ass. I didn't realize Ireland had those types of laws.

[CountryGuy]

Don't get me wrong -- I like the simplicity of their system. But they get taxed pretty harshly, and I know I had sticker shock.

Also, keep in mind that they have universal healthcare. So is it more expensive overall? Maybe not.

[thintheherd]

Mighty Oak wrote: thintheherd wrote: Mighty Oak wrote: thintheherd wrote: Mighty Oak wrote: thintheherd wrote: wyldejackyl wrote: Like any government, there's no way to change it unless you force it to change, and that can't come about by voting (usually). By law I can rob you blind. Why would I want to change that law? That's how the government thinks. That's how the IRS works. You give us what we want, and we'll leave you alone. You don't, and we can do whatever is within our power to make your life hell, including take away everything you own- and then some.

Who's going to stand against people that have that sort of power?
Well we should of course, we do out number them by nearly 300,000,000 as of this week. ;)

Change has been brought about by the will of the people before. I see no reason why it cannot happen again. It just takes renewed effort on the part of the normally apathetic. Your Income tax pays the interest on the money borrowed from the Federal Reserve.That alone is a fraud.If people really understood how all of this works you would certainly not be in favor of a fair tax.
Here's a question, just what does the source of the governments funds have to do with Federal Reserve interest payment fraud?

Please... do enlighten us as to how 'all of this works'. First question:All new money is loaned into circulation as an interest bearing debt. Since this system only creates the "principal" and never the interest, the debt is always greater than the money supply.It's impossible to ever pay the debt.2nd question:No,it's obvious that you are being a (E=mc2)
Um... Neither is a question. Your point? What?I'm answering YOUR question.DUH
What I meant to say was, neither 'answered' my question. Which I'll ask again for you since you didn't get it the first time:

"..what does the source of the governments funds have to do with Federal Reserve interest payment fraud?" (that goes for your second post for that matter)

You have not explainded any correlation.

[Donkeykick]

The cost of the Iraq war alone is enough to make me worry on how we are going to pay this off--even with our present system of taxes! :?

[Dennis]

thintheherd wrote: Dennis wrote: I support the Flat Tax and I support it applied to an income tax at the same percentage for everyone, accross the board (perferably 12% but as high as 17% if need be). No other tax need apply, except a pollution tax.
A flat tax sounds peachy and fair, but you do realize it's a tax on production, among other detriments... read on.

Yes, I do understand that. So, keep producing! A National Sales tax is a tax on consumption. Therefore, to avoid taxation (which we would be allowed to do) we would not consume. Say goodbye to the economy!

thintheherd wrote: Dennis wrote: There is nothing wrong with supporting the country that enabled you to have an income to begin with by giving a SMALL portion of that money you made to the government in order to enable it to do the job it is supposed to be doing.
I don't see a third or more of my income as 'small'.

We're talking about The Flat Tax; please stay on track. 12% of 100% is not one third! It's not even one fourth.

thintheherd wrote: Dennis wrote: There is, however, something wrong with taxing everything I choose to buy. Why should I be taxed on an item I choose to buy, simply because I choose to buy it? That's a load of crap. I purposely buy less because of that and if the Fair Tax is enacted, the amount of tax on all of the goods out there will probably rise, causing me and most others to buy less. How is that good for the economy. In states I have been in where there is no sales tax, I usually bought more. That's good for the economy. Those states also proove that sales tax is not needed.

As well, only having a "national sales tax" - the so-called Fair Tax - would cause the government to fall flat on its face because people would only buy when they absolutely needed to because of being taxed on it. This would disrupt the income government needs to operate effectively. That is not smart.
You need to read up on the Fairtax. Unfortunately you don't really understand it.

Enlighten me then. I see nothing more than a National Sales Tax that will throw our economy and government into the crapper.

thintheherd wrote: Dennis wrote: A Flat Tax on income would keep the government's ability to operate continuous because everyone needs income.
Have no idea what you mean here.

With a sales tax, the government's income would be sporadic because we choose when and if we need to buy anything. The government cannot run on a sporadic income. With an income tax, the government's income is constant because we constantly need income. With a constant income the government can run and do its job.

thintheherd wrote: Dennis wrote: We don't need taxation on anything except pollution and the income our country enables us to make for ourselves and only at a flat rate that's the same for everyone regardless of income level.
But it's not the same for everyone. Do you agree that 12% of a poor mans income is means more to him than does 12% of a rich mans income?

Therein lies the problem...

I don't see every citizen paying his or her fair share as a problem, especially when the poor man is only paying 12% of $10,000 (less than what he is paying now) while the rich man only pays 12% of $100,000,000.

thintheherd wrote: The income tax in this country is nothing more than forced extraction. Payment at the point of a gun.

That's a bunch of crap. At least make the effort to try a different line of rhetoric; we've all heard that one before. How do you think you even got your income to begin with? This country enables your income. You owe it that. To say it has a gun to your head is very immature. If it is so forced, then why don't you move, or are they forcing you to live here too?

thintheherd wrote: ... The Fairtax, by contrast is voluntary. If you don't want to pay it- dont!

Yeah, that's smart. So, don't pay anything and flush our government, not to mention our economy, right down the toilet. Real smart. How do you expect government to do its job (national defense, police, fire, maintaining streets, etc) if the income required to do that job comes from a completly unstable platform such as when and if the people choose to give it money! What makes you think we would have a stable economy if we could choose to avoid taxes by not buying anything? That's completly irresponsible.

The Flat Tax allows the government to continue its job. It also alows the economy to survive, and even thrive since you wouldn't be taxed more if you produce more. To top it off, The Flat Tax is a "Fair" way to make that happen, requiring the same amount from everyone corralated to their income level.

[thintheherd]

Dennis wrote: thintheherd wrote: Dennis wrote: I support the Flat Tax and I support it applied to an income tax at the same percentage for everyone, accross the board (perferably 12% but as high as 17% if need be). No other tax need apply, except a pollution tax.
A flat tax sounds peachy and fair, but you do realize it's a tax on production, among other detriments... read on.

Yes, I do understand that. So, keep producing! A National Sales tax is a tax on consumption. Therefore, to avoid taxation (which we would be allowed to do) we would not consume. Say goodbye to the economy!
You say that as though a gallon of milk would be higher under the FairTax. Proof you do not understand it.

Dennis wrote: thintheherd wrote: Dennis wrote: There is nothing wrong with supporting the country that enabled you to have an income to begin with by giving a SMALL portion of that money you made to the government in order to enable it to do the job it is supposed to be doing.
I don't see a third or more of my income as 'small'.

We're talking about The Flat Tax; please stay on track. 12% of 100% is not one third! It's not even one fourth.
Point taken, I thought you were referring to the current income tax. It's still taken against your will.

Dennis wrote: There is, however, something wrong with taxing everything I choose to buy. Why should I be taxed on an item I choose to buy, simply because I choose to buy it? That's a load of crap. I purposely buy less because of that and if the Fair Tax is enacted, the amount of tax on all of the goods out there will probably rise, causing me and most others to buy less. How is that good for the economy. In states I have been in where there is no sales tax, I usually bought more. That's good for the economy. Those states also proove that sales tax is not needed.
Because you would have the choice that's why.

By the way, the FairTax is inclusive, not exclusive like all of the State sales taxes. Further proof you've no idea of what you speak.

Dennis wrote: thintheherd wrote: Dennis wrote: As well, only having a "national sales tax" - the so-called Fair Tax - would cause the government to fall flat on its face because people would only buy when they absolutely needed to because of being taxed on it. This would disrupt the income government needs to operate effectively. That is not smart.
You need to read up on the Fairtax. Unfortunately you don't really understand it.

Enlighten me then. I see nothing more than a National Sales Tax that will throw our economy and government into the crapper.
And you'd be wrong again. Also, it's not my job to educate you. There has been plenty written on the subject. If you'd like to intelligently comment on a subject then the onus is clearly on you. Try all 23 pages of this thread for starters:

http://www.politicalcrossfire.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=60971&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

I've debunked all of your assertions including the ones you have below.

Dennis wrote: thintheherd wrote: Dennis wrote: A Flat Tax on income would keep the government's ability to operate continuous because everyone needs income.
Have no idea what you mean here.

With a sales tax, the government's income would be sporadic because we choose when and if we need to buy anything. The government cannot run on a sporadic income. With an income tax, the government's income is constant because we constantly need income. With a constant income the government can run and do its job.
Wrong again. Unless you can prove to me that the GDP is not equally as consistent as the employment/salary rates.

Dennis wrote: thintheherd wrote: Dennis wrote: We don't need taxation on anything except pollution and the income our country enables us to make for ourselves and only at a flat rate that's the same for everyone regardless of income level.
But it's not the same for everyone. Do you agree that 12% of a poor mans income is means more to him than does 12% of a rich mans income?

Therein lies the problem...

I don't see every citizen paying his or her fair share as a problem, especially when the poor man is only paying 12% of $10,000 (less than what he is paying now) while the rich man only pays 12% of $100,000,000.
Actually, aside from embedded taxes every consumer pays, someone making 10K pays near nothing in federal income taxes.

Having said that, why in the world would you have a problem with that poor man paying NOTHING under the FairTax and the rich man paying MORE than your 12% example?

Dennis wrote: thintheherd wrote: The income tax in this country is nothing more than forced extraction. Payment at the point of a gun.

That's a bunch of crap. At least make the effort to try a different line of rhetoric; we've all heard that one before. How do you think you even got your income to begin with? This country enables your income. You owe it that. To say it has a gun to your head is very immature. If it is so forced, then why don't you move, or are they forcing you to live here too?
You are in no position to call me immature. You think it's not a reality? Try not paying your income taxes and see what happens. The analogy is quite correct. You are forced to pay your income taxes, or do I need to bring Wesley Snipes over to your house for a chat?

By the way... talk about crap.. This 'country' does not 'enable' my income. I do. I offer my labor and expertise in exchange for monetary compensation in contracts with my clients/employers. My 'country' has nothing to do with that exchange apart from protecting my right to do so. Don't fool yourself.

Dennis wrote: thintheherd wrote: ... The Fairtax, by contrast is voluntary. If you don't want to pay it- dont!

Yeah, that's smart. So, don't pay anything and flush our government, not to mention our economy, right down the toilet. Real smart. How do you expect government to do its job (national defense, police, fire, maintaining streets, etc) if the income required to do that job comes from a completly unstable platform such as when and if the people choose to give it money! What makes you think we would have a stable economy if we could choose to avoid taxes by not buying anything? That's completly irresponsible.
I don't know how you cannot see the benefits of placing more of the power of what the gov't does in the hands of the people.

Here's the thing... the gov't is going to spend money if you give it to them. Often more than they take in. You are telling me that you are comfortable with them raising your commitment to that spending whenever they need to rather than having control of the purse strings yourself. Yeah, that's smart eh? :roll:

Asking the Fed Gov't to reduce spending hasen't worked since the dawn of time. Force is the only answer IMO.

Dennis wrote: The Flat Tax allows the government to continue its job. It also alows the economy to survive, and even thrive since you wouldn't be taxed more if you produce more. To top it off, The Flat Tax is a "Fair" way to make that happen, requiring the same amount from everyone corralated to their income level.
Yeah, if that job is taking money away from you whenever they see fit. A Flat Tax is only a simplified version of the mess we have today. It still stifles the economy and adds nothing to the fight for control we so desparately need to wrest from their greedy hands.

I sure wish that you had the 25+ years of real world experience this 'immature' poster has to see that.

[Dennis]

thintheherd wrote: Dennis wrote: thintheherd wrote: Dennis wrote: I support the Flat Tax and I support it applied to an income tax at the same percentage for everyone, accross the board (perferably 12% but as high as 17% if need be). No other tax need apply, except a pollution tax.
A flat tax sounds peachy and fair, but you do realize it's a tax on production, among other detriments... read on.

Yes, I do understand that. So, keep producing! A National Sales tax is a tax on consumption. Therefore, to avoid taxation (which we would be allowed to do) we would not consume. Say goodbye to the economy!
You say that as though a gallon of milk would be higher under the FairTax. Proof you do not understand it.

No proof whatsoever. I buy less in states that have a sales tax, period.

Dennis wrote: thintheherd wrote: Dennis wrote: There is nothing wrong with supporting the country that enabled you to have an income to begin with by giving a SMALL portion of that money you made to the government in order to enable it to do the job it is supposed to be doing.
I don't see a third or more of my income as 'small'.

We're talking about The Flat Tax; please stay on track. 12% of 100% is not one third! It's not even one fourth.
thintheherd wrote: Point taken, I thought you were referring to the current income tax. It's still taken against your will.

Once again, you are living in a fantasy.

Dennis wrote: There is, however, something wrong with taxing everything I choose to buy. Why should I be taxed on an item I choose to buy, simply because I choose to buy it? That's a load of crap. I purposely buy less because of that and if the Fair Tax is enacted, the amount of tax on all of the goods out there will probably rise, causing me and most others to buy less. How is that good for the economy. In states I have been in where there is no sales tax, I usually bought more. That's good for the economy. Those states also proove that sales tax is not needed.
thintheherd wrote: Because you would have the choice that's why.

So, yourself is more important than your community and your country? Wow, that's so honorable of you. You should be proud of yourself. Too bad without a country, you will have no self. The community enables "self" in today's world.

Dennis wrote: thintheherd wrote: Dennis wrote: As well, only having a "national sales tax" - the so-called Fair Tax - would cause the government to fall flat on its face because people would only buy when they absolutely needed to because of being taxed on it. This would disrupt the income government needs to operate effectively. That is not smart.
You need to read up on the Fairtax. Unfortunately you don't really understand it.

Enlighten me then. I see nothing more than a National Sales Tax that will throw our economy and government into the crapper.
thintheherd wrote: And you'd be wrong again. Also, it's not my job to educate you. There has been plenty written on the subject. If you'd like to intelligently comment on a subject then the onus is clearly on you. Try all 23 pages of this thread for starters:

http://www.politicalcrossfire.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=60971&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

I've debunked all of your assertions including the ones you have below.

You haven't debunked jack. All you can say is "your wrong" with no facts to back it up.

Dennis wrote: thintheherd wrote: Dennis wrote: A Flat Tax on income would keep the government's ability to operate continuous because everyone needs income.
Have no idea what you mean here.

With a sales tax, the government's income would be sporadic because we choose when and if we need to buy anything. The government cannot run on a sporadic income. With an income tax, the government's income is constant because we constantly need income. With a constant income the government can run and do its job.
thintheherd wrote: Wrong again. Unless you can prove to me that the GDP is not equally as consistent as the employment/salary rates.

You seriously need to think about this one some more. This should be common sense.

Dennis wrote: thintheherd wrote: Dennis wrote: We don't need taxation on anything except pollution and the income our country enables us to make for ourselves and only at a flat rate that's the same for everyone regardless of income level.
But it's not the same for everyone. Do you agree that 12% of a poor mans income is means more to him than does 12% of a rich mans income?

Therein lies the problem...

I don't see every citizen paying his or her fair share as a problem, especially when the poor man is only paying 12% of $10,000 (less than what he is paying now) while the rich man only pays 12% of $100,000,000.
thintheherd wrote: Actually, aside from embedded taxes every consumer pays

Once again, I am talking about the Flat Tax, not today's taxes. With the Flat Tax, all other taxes would be abolished, including sales tax. Please, keep up.

thintheherd wrote: someone making 10K pays near nothing in federal income taxes.

Having said that, why in the world would you have a problem with that poor man paying NOTHING under the FairTax and the rich man paying MORE than your 12% example?

I have a problem with it because everyone should pay their fair share and it should be the same for everyone, period.

Dennis wrote: thintheherd wrote: The income tax in this country is nothing more than forced extraction. Payment at the point of a gun.

That's a bunch of crap. At least make the effort to try a different line of rhetoric; we've all heard that one before. How do you think you even got your income to begin with? This country enables your income. You owe it that. To say it has a gun to your head is very immature. If it is so forced, then why don't you move, or are they forcing you to live here too?
thintheherd wrote: You are in no position to call me immature.

Yes, I am. You are living in a fantasy of the government forcing you to pay, as if they are forcing you to live here and pay your fair share.

thintheherd wrote: By the way... talk about crap.. This 'country' does not 'enable' my income. I do. I offer my labor and expertise in exchange for monetary compensation in contracts with my clients/employers. My 'country' has nothing to do with that exchange apart from protecting my right to do so.

Read your own post that I have boldened. You have made my point exactly. Thank you. :lol:

Dennis wrote: thintheherd wrote: ... The Fairtax, by contrast is voluntary. If you don't want to pay it- dont!

Yeah, that's smart. So, don't pay anything and flush our government, not to mention our economy, right down the toilet. Real smart. How do you expect government to do its job (national defense, police, fire, maintaining streets, etc) if the income required to do that job comes from a completly unstable platform such as when and if the people choose to give it money! What makes you think we would have a stable economy if we could choose to avoid taxes by not buying anything? That's completly irresponsible.
thintheherd wrote: I don't know how you cannot see the benefits of placing more of the power of what the gov't does in the hands of the people.

Here's the thing... the gov't is going to spend money if you give it to them. Often more than they take in. You are telling me that you are comfortable with them raising your commitment to that spending whenever they need to rather than having control of the purse strings yourself. Yeah, that's smart eh?

I understand your concern for keeping the government in check about spending; that's one of the reasons why I support the Flat Tax. Otherwise, your Sales Tax will disable the government, all because you want to be greedy. That's not smart. Because of that, it will never happen.

Dennis wrote: The Flat Tax allows the government to continue its job. It also alows the economy to survive, and even thrive since you wouldn't be taxed more if you produce more. To top it off, The Flat Tax is a "Fair" way to make that happen, requiring the same amount from everyone corralated to their income level.
thintheherd wrote: Yeah, if that job is taking money away from you whenever they see fit.

Actually, it would be at regular intervals, not whenver they see fit. Where did you get such a strange idea? Once again, I am talking about the Flat Tax, not today's taxes. AGAIN, please stay on track.

thintheherd wrote: I sure wish that you had the 25+ years of real world experience this 'immature' poster has to see that.

What a joke. Because you are senior that makes you smarter? Heh...you still have a lot to learn. Senority does not guarantee intelligence. You, being so smart, should know that. My experience in the working world (16 years) has shown me plenty; it has shown me enough to understand that we need a government (one capable of operating), we need a fair tax system (the Flat Tax), and we need to be willing to pay our share and not be greedy bastards.

Your kind is on the way out the door. Get used to it. :twisted:

[thintheherd]

Dennis wrote: thintheherd wrote: Dennis wrote: thintheherd wrote: Dennis wrote: I support the Flat Tax and I support it applied to an income tax at the same percentage for everyone, accross the board (perferably 12% but as high as 17% if need be). No other tax need apply, except a pollution tax.
A flat tax sounds peachy and fair, but you do realize it's a tax on production, among other detriments... read on.

Yes, I do understand that. So, keep producing! A National Sales tax is a tax on consumption. Therefore, to avoid taxation (which we would be allowed to do) we would not consume. Say goodbye to the economy!
You say that as though a gallon of milk would be higher under the FairTax. Proof you do not understand it.

No proof whatsoever. I buy less in states that have a sales tax, period.
I wasn't trying to prove you are petty enough to worry about a 4-10% exclusive tax, you did a fine job of that yourself.

However, YOU easily proved that you have no idea the concepts behind the FairTax.

Dennis wrote: Dennis wrote: thintheherd wrote: Dennis wrote: There is nothing wrong with supporting the country that enabled you to have an income to begin with by giving a SMALL portion of that money you made to the government in order to enable it to do the job it is supposed to be doing.
I don't see a third or more of my income as 'small'.

We're talking about The Flat Tax; please stay on track. 12% of 100% is not one third! It's not even one fourth.
thintheherd wrote: Point taken, I thought you were referring to the current income tax. It's still taken against your will.

Once again, you are living in a fantasy.
Great dodge of my question as to what happens when you decide not to pay your income tax, flat or not... well done. Don't worry, you'll have another opportunity below.

Dennis wrote: Dennis wrote: There is, however, something wrong with taxing everything I choose to buy. Why should I be taxed on an item I choose to buy, simply because I choose to buy it? That's a load of crap. I purposely buy less because of that and if the Fair Tax is enacted, the amount of tax on all of the goods out there will probably rise, causing me and most others to buy less. How is that good for the economy. In states I have been in where there is no sales tax, I usually bought more. That's good for the economy. Those states also proove that sales tax is not needed.
thintheherd wrote: Because you would have the choice that's why.

So, yourself is more important than your community and your country? Wow, that's so honorable of you. You should be proud of yourself. Too bad without a country, you will have no self. The community enables "self" in today's world.
This is where you really go off the deep end. It's not all about 'me' as you assert, nor the concept of 'self'. It is about 'the people' having back the power that we ignorantly handed to our government. Though I don't expect you to grasp that concept.

Dennis wrote: Dennis wrote: thintheherd wrote: Dennis wrote: As well, only having a "national sales tax" - the so-called Fair Tax - would cause the government to fall flat on its face because people would only buy when they absolutely needed to because of being taxed on it. This would disrupt the income government needs to operate effectively. That is not smart.
You need to read up on the Fairtax. Unfortunately you don't really understand it.

Enlighten me then. I see nothing more than a National Sales Tax that will throw our economy and government into the crapper.
thintheherd wrote: And you'd be wrong again. Also, it's not my job to educate you. There has been plenty written on the subject. If you'd like to intelligently comment on a subject then the onus is clearly on you. Try all 23 pages of this thread for starters:

http://www.politicalcrossfire.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=60971&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

I've debunked all of your assertions including the ones you have below.

You haven't debunked jack. All you can say is "your wrong" with no facts to back it up.
*sigh* The facts are in the FairTax thread linked. I see no reason to regurgitate them here for you.

Dennis wrote: Dennis wrote: thintheherd wrote: Dennis wrote: A Flat Tax on income would keep the government's ability to operate continuous because everyone needs income.
Have no idea what you mean here.

With a sales tax, the government's income would be sporadic because we choose when and if we need to buy anything. The government cannot run on a sporadic income. With an income tax, the government's income is constant because we constantly need income. With a constant income the government can run and do its job.
thintheherd wrote: Wrong again. Unless you can prove to me that the GDP is not equally as consistent as the employment/salary rates.

You seriously need to think about this one some more. This should be common sense.
Hey, it's your assertion.. prove it.

Dennis wrote: Dennis wrote: thintheherd wrote: Dennis wrote: We don't need taxation on anything except pollution and the income our country enables us to make for ourselves and only at a flat rate that's the same for everyone regardless of income level.
But it's not the same for everyone. Do you agree that 12% of a poor mans income is means more to him than does 12% of a rich mans income?

Therein lies the problem...

I don't see every citizen paying his or her fair share as a problem, especially when the poor man is only paying 12% of $10,000 (less than what he is paying now) while the rich man only pays 12% of $100,000,000.
thintheherd wrote: Actually, aside from embedded taxes every consumer pays

Once again, I am talking about the Flat Tax, not today's taxes. With the Flat Tax, all other taxes would be abolished, including sales tax. Please, keep up.
I know what the hell you are talking about. What you fail to realize is that any tax on income carries with it embedded taxes that eventually find their way to the consumer (that would be you, me AND the poor man).

Tell us now that you are ok with paying your 'fair share' of a flat corporate income tax, or that your pay is lower because your boss wants more net income. Yes, tell us please.

Dennis wrote: thintheherd wrote: someone making 10K pays near nothing in federal income taxes.

Having said that, why in the world would you have a problem with that poor man paying NOTHING under the FairTax and the rich man paying MORE than your 12% example?

I have a problem with it because everyone should pay their fair share and it should be the same for everyone, period.
OK... so progressiveness is not for you. Fine, your bed.

Dennis wrote: Dennis wrote: thintheherd wrote: The income tax in this country is nothing more than forced extraction. Payment at the point of a gun.

That's a bunch of crap. At least make the effort to try a different line of rhetoric; we've all heard that one before. How do you think you even got your income to begin with? This country enables your income. You owe it that. To say it has a gun to your head is very immature. If it is so forced, then why don't you move, or are they forcing you to live here too?
thintheherd wrote: You are in no position to call me immature.


Yes, I am. You are living in a fantasy of the government forcing you to pay, as if they are forcing you to live here and pay your fair share.
Yeah, right.... and again... what happens if you don't pay? Exactly which part of forfeiting your assets and potential prison time is fantasy?

Dennis wrote: thintheherd wrote: By the way... talk about crap.. This 'country' does not 'enable' my income. I do. I offer my labor and expertise in exchange for monetary compensation in contracts with my clients/employers. My 'country' has nothing to do with that exchange apart from protecting my right to do so.

Read your own post that I have boldened. You have made my point exactly. Thank you. :lol:
Not at all. I have an inaliable right to all of the fruits of my labor (income). That right is not 'enabled' by a government, only protected. Big difference.

Dennis wrote: Dennis wrote: thintheherd wrote: ... The Fairtax, by contrast is voluntary. If you don't want to pay it- dont!

Yeah, that's smart. So, don't pay anything and flush our government, not to mention our economy, right down the toilet. Real smart. How do you expect government to do its job (national defense, police, fire, maintaining streets, etc) if the income required to do that job comes from a completly unstable platform such as when and if the people choose to give it money! What makes you think we would have a stable economy if we could choose to avoid taxes by not buying anything? That's completly irresponsible.
thintheherd wrote: I don't know how you cannot see the benefits of placing more of the power of what the gov't does in the hands of the people.

Here's the thing... the gov't is going to spend money if you give it to them. Often more than they take in. You are telling me that you are comfortable with them raising your commitment to that spending whenever they need to rather than having control of the purse strings yourself. Yeah, that's smart eh?

I understand your concern for keeping the government in check about spending; that's one of the reasons why I support the Flat Tax. Otherwise, your Sales Tax will disable the government, all because you want to be greedy. That's not smart. Because of that, it will never happen.
What does greed have to do with putting the power back in the hands of "We the People"? Isn't that where the power was intended to lie?

And how in the world do you believe that a flat tax on your income will curb spending? Ridiculous.

Dennis wrote: Dennis wrote: The Flat Tax allows the government to continue its job. It also alows the economy to survive, and even thrive since you wouldn't be taxed more if you produce more. To top it off, The Flat Tax is a "Fair" way to make that happen, requiring the same amount from everyone corralated to their income level.
thintheherd wrote: Yeah, if that job is taking money away from you whenever they see fit.

Actually, it would be at regular intervals, not whenver they see fit. Where did you get such a strange idea? Once again, I am talking about the Flat Tax, not today's taxes. AGAIN, please stay on track.
Oh yes, regular intervals, kind of like their pay raises. :roll: Lest we forget about all of the exemptions that are sure to follow keeping k-street alive and well.

Dennis wrote: thintheherd wrote: I sure wish that you had the 25+ years of real world experience this 'immature' poster has to see that.

What a joke. Because you are senior that makes you smarter? Heh...you still have a lot to learn. Senority does not guarantee intelligence. You, being so smart, should know that. My experience in the working world (16 years) has shown me plenty; it has shown me enough to understand that we need a government (one capable of operating), we need a fair tax system (the Flat Tax), and we need to be willing to pay our share and not be greedy bastards.
Again with the greed :roll: The mere act of bringing that irrelevant word into this discussion illustrates how little your 16 years have taught you. Unless, that is, you see a power shift from the gov't into the hands of their constituency a form of greed.

Dennis wrote: Your kind is on the way out the door. Get used to it. :twisted:
My kind? My kind? And just what kind is that? The kind that believes in freedom of choice? The kind that believes the the government is to serve the people not the other way around? The kind that believes that we must revert to a government of the people, by the people and for the people? Gee, we are a nasty bunch aren't we?

If you are our successors, I pity us all.