Political Crossfire Forums

[garyav8r]

A topic I have thought of often.

I can only think of the Pros.

1. Get rid of one more money sucking Government Organization.

2. Let me have all my money then Tax everything, I mean it, Tax everything. Let me decide what to purchase or not purchase. And tax it.

3. No more loop holes for the rich to hide in.

4. No more free rides for the lazy, IE Earned Income Credit, for Welfare Slugs.

Just a little to start the debate.

[lilwolf]

First off you should add an opinion okay

[garyav8r]

lilwolf wrote: First off you should add an opinion okay

I thought my reasons to rid us of income tax was an opinion?

[CountryGuy]

garyav8r wrote: A topic I have thought of often.

I can only think of the Pros.

1. Get rid of one more money sucking Government Organization.

2. Let me have all my money then Tax everything, I mean it, Tax everything. Let me decide what to purchase or not purchase. And tax it.

3. No more loop holes for the rich to hide in.

4. No more free rides for the lazy, IE Earned Income Credit, for Welfare Slugs.

Just a little to start the debate.

If you tax everything, then you harm the poor greatly. A 10% tax on foodstuffs would impact a poor person a LOT more than a rich person. People buy more loaves of bread than they do cars, for example.

[wyldejackyl]

You'd tax foodstuffs minimally, while taxing luxury goods at a premium. I think it makes sense. You could also get rid of the IRS then, all their data collection systems, and associated bureaucracies..imagine how much money that saves!

[thintheherd]

garyav8r wrote: A topic I have thought of often.

I can only think of the Pros.

1. Get rid of one more money sucking Government Organization.

2. Let me have all my money then Tax everything, I mean it, Tax everything. Let me decide what to purchase or not purchase. And tax it.

3. No more loop holes for the rich to hide in.

4. No more free rides for the lazy, IE Earned Income Credit, for Welfare Slugs.

Just a little to start the debate.
Nothing to debate really. Do you know of the FairTax? It's close to what you describe. You should really study up on it.

www.fairtax.org

[garyav8r]

[/quote]
Nothing to debate really. Do you know of the FairTax? It's close to what you describe. You should really study up on it.

www.fairtax.org[/quote]


Fanastic, I will do some evening reading. Thank You.

[bigstick61]

I really don't like the fairtax very much. What is preferred would be to reduce the need for high taxation which necessitated the income tax in the first place. Replace it with the other main method of taxation, direct taxes. They would be apportioned like representatives to the States based upon population. It would be reasonable if the budget got under $1 trillion. Reducing spending to what is legally allowed and only what is necessary in regards to the Federal government would eliminate the need for an income tax or something to replace it.

[Superfly]

I might even vote Republican again, if they would agree to abolish the IRS.

:-D

[micfranklin]

To be honest, even though it says Congress collects income taxes in the 16th amendment some voice in my head tells me that the income tax isn't even legal.

[Anarko-Kapitalizt]

Superfly wrote: I might even vote Republican again, if they would agree to abolish the IRS.

:-D

Libertarians are the only ones with enough balls to do that.

[Fido]

Property should support this country as it once did so that it is made profitable or dispensed with, so it ruins the speculative value of property, so it no longer can exist as a bank of wealth and becomes cheaper; and because it is fair while some people pay with their lives for the defense and support of this country, others who benefit from their service in the security of their property, should pay with the proceeds of that property.

Income taxes force down down wages because one must work longer to pay both taxes, and for living. The need does not exist to make money with property, and the pressure of the taxes drive the worker rather than the employer. The frosting on this taxes cake is that the speculative value of property drives up the price for working people so they must pay too high a price to begin with and then must borrow that sum and pay back twice that sum besides. And to encourage this usury, the government allows a deduction for mortgage interest, which puts that much more pressure on workers wages.

It is desperation that lowers wages, and income taxes cause desperation for workers. The resulting lower wages do not pay the taxes that will support retirement and health care even while more of these expenses are being put onto the workers. The general hopeless condition of people who cannot even get a job that supports a family and pays taxes is filling our jails and morgues; but it is also filling our army. All this while the wealthy have the complete support of law, and religion, ensconced though unassailed in their property.

To have the full measure of rights in this country one must own property. Clearly, homes are non productive, and essential. Property that is capable of production should be made profitable, and profitable or not, should be taxed till it grows legs and runs off. No more free rides for the rich.

Working people are cornered between high income taxes and downward pressure on wages. If the government will not protect the wages of workers to a fair minimum, nor support unions formed for that purpose, they should not tax labor at all, and do not tax workers fairly. All the saved and expropriated wealth of this country is in the form of some kind of property. Working people earn their rights with their lives. What does property have to justify the rights of property owners?

[thintheherd]

bigstick61 wrote: I really don't like the fairtax very much.
Why... After all that's been discussed?

http://www.politicalcrossfire.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=60971&highlight=

bigstick61 wrote: What is preferred would be to reduce the need for high taxation which necessitated the income tax in the first place. Replace it with the other main method of taxation, direct taxes. They would be apportioned like representatives to the States based upon population. It would be reasonable if the budget got under $1 trillion. Reducing spending to what is legally allowed and only what is necessary in regards to the Federal government would eliminate the need for an income tax or something to replace it.
Then perhaps you can answer the second post on page 11?

http://www.politicalcrossfire.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=64442&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=200

[Dennis]

I support the Flat Tax and I support it applied to an income tax at the same percentage for everyone, accross the board (perferably 12% but as high as 17% if need be). No other tax need apply, except a pollution tax.

There is nothing wrong with supporting the country that enabled you to have an income to begin with by giving a SMALL portion of that money you made to the government in order to enable it to do the job it is supposed to be doing.

There is, however, something wrong with taxing everything I choose to buy. Why should I be taxed on an item I choose to buy, simply because I choose to buy it? That's a load of crap. I purposely buy less because of that and if the Fair Tax is enacted, the amount of tax on all of the goods out there will probably rise, causing me and most others to buy less. How is that good for the economy. In states I have been in where there is no sales tax, I usually bought more. That's good for the economy. Those states also proove that sales tax is not needed.

As well, only having a "national sales tax" - the so-called Fair Tax - would cause the government to fall flat on its face because people would only buy when they absolutely needed to because of being taxed on it. This would disrupt the income government needs to operate effectively. That is not smart. A Flat Tax on income would keep the government's ability to operate continuous because everyone needs income.

We don't need taxation on anything except pollution and the income our country enables us to make for ourselves and only at a flat rate that's the same for everyone regardless of income level.

[bigstick61]

Eliminating income tax and using the other major method of taxation, direct taxes, would indeed reduce the flow of revenue. If taxes got too high, there would be hell to pay in Washington, because everyone would pay an equal share of the taxes needed for the fiscal year in question. Divide over three trillion dollars by the amount of taxpayers in this country, and you'd see why many would become angry.

However, Harbinger is right, in a sense. Current politicians will not do anything to jeopardize the income to many of their unconstitutional or unneccessary progams, and that is where the change must start. Any change in the system of taxation must accompany government reduction in size and spending, and greater fiscal responsibility in general. This requires differnet politicians. Few in Congress would support such a thing as presently composed.

[thintheherd]

Dennis wrote: I support the Flat Tax and I support it applied to an income tax at the same percentage for everyone, accross the board (perferably 12% but as high as 17% if need be). No other tax need apply, except a pollution tax.
A flat tax sounds peachy and fair, but you do realize it's a tax on production, among other detriments... read on.

Dennis wrote: There is nothing wrong with supporting the country that enabled you to have an income to begin with by giving a SMALL portion of that money you made to the government in order to enable it to do the job it is supposed to be doing.
I don't see a third or more of my income as 'small'.

Dennis wrote: There is, however, something wrong with taxing everything I choose to buy. Why should I be taxed on an item I choose to buy, simply because I choose to buy it? That's a load of crap. I purposely buy less because of that and if the Fair Tax is enacted, the amount of tax on all of the goods out there will probably rise, causing me and most others to buy less. How is that good for the economy. In states I have been in where there is no sales tax, I usually bought more. That's good for the economy. Those states also proove that sales tax is not needed.

As well, only having a "national sales tax" - the so-called Fair Tax - would cause the government to fall flat on its face because people would only buy when they absolutely needed to because of being taxed on it. This would disrupt the income government needs to operate effectively. That is not smart.
You need to read up on the Fairtax. Unfortunately you don't really understand it.

Dennis wrote: A Flat Tax on income would keep the government's ability to operate continuous because everyone needs income.
Have no idea what you mean here.

Dennis wrote: We don't need taxation on anything except pollution and the income our country enables us to make for ourselves and only at a flat rate that's the same for everyone regardless of income level.
But it's not the same for everyone. Do you agree that 12% of a poor mans income is means more to him than does 12% of a rich mans income?

Therein lies the problem...

The income tax in this country is nothing more than forced extraction. Payment at the point of a gun. The Fairtax, by contrast is voluntary. If you don't want to pay it- dont! Buy used goods 'till your hearts content.

I see a potential reduction in funds for the government as a bonus. It's time we had control over the purse strings and not the other way around.

[wyldejackyl]

Like any government, there's no way to change it unless you force it to change, and that can't come about by voting (usually). By law I can rob you blind. Why would I want to change that law? That's how the government thinks. That's how the IRS works. You give us what we want, and we'll leave you alone. You don't, and we can do whatever is within our power to make your life hell, including take away everything you own- and then some.

Who's going to stand against people that have that sort of power?

[thintheherd]

wyldejackyl wrote: Like any government, there's no way to change it unless you force it to change, and that can't come about by voting (usually). By law I can rob you blind. Why would I want to change that law? That's how the government thinks. That's how the IRS works. You give us what we want, and we'll leave you alone. You don't, and we can do whatever is within our power to make your life hell, including take away everything you own- and then some.

Who's going to stand against people that have that sort of power?
Well we should of course, we do out number them by nearly 300,000,000 as of this week. ;)

Change has been brought about by the will of the people before. I see no reason why it cannot happen again. It just takes renewed effort on the part of the normally apathetic.

[Mighty Oak]

thintheherd wrote: wyldejackyl wrote: Like any government, there's no way to change it unless you force it to change, and that can't come about by voting (usually). By law I can rob you blind. Why would I want to change that law? That's how the government thinks. That's how the IRS works. You give us what we want, and we'll leave you alone. You don't, and we can do whatever is within our power to make your life hell, including take away everything you own- and then some.

Who's going to stand against people that have that sort of power?
Well we should of course, we do out number them by nearly 300,000,000 as of this week. ;)

Change has been brought about by the will of the people before. I see no reason why it cannot happen again. It just takes renewed effort on the part of the normally apathetic. Your Income tax pays the interest on the money borrowed from the Federal Reserve.That alone is a fraud.If people really understood how all of this works you would certainly not be in favor of a fair tax.

[wyldejackyl]

I'm not sure a fair tax would work..but I do know for sure that a massive reduction in taxation woudl be good for everyone, and a national sales tax might work better as well. If by fair tax, you mean 15% for all, or something like that.

Explain please what you are speaking of and how the Federal Reserve interest funding works.